The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[mainstander]

Frankly speaking, my knees are now at the trembling stage. Why? Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for the Scottish Nation. ONLY ONCE!

 

Great stuff Scarlet. It must be amazing to be able to stand on the sidelines in the economic safety of Canada and urge the people who have actually stayed on here to take the huge risks coming from a Yes vote and put there livelihoods on the line. Meanwhile all you have to worry about is having a moan about you're British pension.

[Kingsmills]

 

Frankly speaking, my knees are now at the trembling stage. Why? Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for the Scottish Nation. ONLY ONCE!

 

Great stuff Scarlet. It must be amazing to be able to stand on the sidelines in the economic safety of Canada and urge the people who have actually stayed on here to take the huge risks coming from a Yes vote and put there livelihoods on the line. Meanwhile all you have to worry about is having a moan about you're British pension.

 

 

Robust debate is good but that is on the personal side and flirting with site rules. Keep it general rather than personal folks.

[dougiedanger]

The power is in our hands folks--do we really want to hand it back to Cameron, Farage, Clegg, Johnson, Milliband et al?

 

Or should we keep that power and use it wisely for the benefit of our families and communities?

[+DoofersDad]

Oddly, I agree with that and one reason I will be voting Yes is for closer cooperation and strengh

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29217170

This article examines the world's reaction or should I say hugely growing reaction--to this vital vote.It's absolutely amazing!

And the information given in the article consumed my interest and what struck me as being so powerful was how small the world has become and how much we all depend on each other..and, as human beings, how

similar are our needs.

 

I agree with this part of what you say but would argue that this surely highlights the need for ever closer cooperation and strengthening of unions rather than further fragmenting this world into more and more smaller, competing nations.  We need to put aside our narrow perceptions of identity and have the courage to share and embrace a wider identity as world citizens moving forward in cooperation.

 

 

I agree entirely and one of my main reasons for voting Yes is to promote ever closer cooperation with other nations and strenghthening of unions most particularly the European Union.

 

Scotland will be an outward looking internationalist country as opposed to the increasingly insular attitude of those wielding power in the UK where the rise of the lunatics of UKIP has panicked the establishment into a referendum on leaving the EU at a time when no other sensible pragmatic nation wants to leave and many are knocking on the door to get in.

 

Absolutely, we need to put aside our narrow perceptions of identity and have the courage to share and embrace a wider identity as world citizens moving forward in cooperation.

 

For me, it is self evident that a government in Edinburgh would be more willing and able to do just that than one based in London dancing to the tune of Nigel Farage and pandering to the views of readers of the Daily Mail and Telegraph..

 

What a pleasant change to have a reasoned response to a post instead of the usual sloganising.

 

If I understand your point correctly, I think we are agreed that we both want a Scotland that plays an active and cooperative role in international affairs for mutual benefit within the international community. You take the view that is best achieved by an Independent Scotland within the EU whilst I take the view that it is best achieved by Scotland remaining within the UK which in turn is in the EU. Both are absolutely legitimate view points but there are just too many uncertainties here to say which is right or wrong.  They are simply opinions.

 

You may be right about an independent Scotland's international outlook, but on the other hand, you may not.  UKIP is a source of much criticism in the YES camp, but is that not because they cannot come to terms that a party committed to independence and for its country being in charge of its own affairs, is not supporting the Scottish case for independence?  Given that a major plank of the "YES" case and the reason why so many are voting "YES" is that they want Scotland to be in control of it's own destiny, you have to wonder if the Scots will take the UKIP line and vote "NO" to the EU.  The difference between UKIP and the SNP is simply that UKIP's country is the UK and the SNP's is Scotland.

 

Salmond is the master of trying to be all things to all people.  He speaks about the Scottish people having control over its own destiny and then says Scotland will play a positive internationalist role as part of the EU.  But as Farage takes great pleasure in pointing out, if Scotland joins the EU it cedes much of it's control of it's own destiny to a Union whose laws have primacy.  I haven't seen any convincing response to this point.

 

If the Scottish voters vote "YES" tomorrow because they want control over their own destiny, they may well vote "No" to Scotland being in Europe.  Remember that when the UK voted to go into Europe, the "YES" vote in Scotland was significantly lower than in the rest of the country. An independent Scotland being in the EU is far from guaranteed.

 

But the UK is in the EU at the moment.  And whilst support for UKIP is growing, all the 3 main parliamentary parties support the EU.  That, of course, may change at the next election.  If the UK government has a referendum and if the result is that the UK leaves the EU, I would consider that an extremely negative outcome.  If at that time Scotland was still in the UK and the Scottish vote supported EU membership, then In my view that would be a much more constructive basis for Scotland to seek independence from the UK.  Rather than the "we want control of our own destiny" nonsense we have been bombarded with over recent months, the message would be "we want Scotland to have a more active role in the international community".  In that scenario, I might well be on the "YES" side!

[Ayeseetee]

 

Frankly speaking, my knees are now at the trembling stage. Why? Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for the Scottish Nation. ONLY ONCE!

 

Great stuff Scarlet. It must be amazing to be able to stand on the sidelines in the economic safety of Canada and urge the people who have actually stayed on here to take the huge risks coming from a Yes vote and put there livelihoods on the line. Meanwhile all you have to worry about is having a moan about you're British pension.

 

 

You're first post here in over a month and that's the best argument you have?

 

Stay classy 

 

 

 

 

 

On the "new poll" topic Ayseeteee says posting is disabled since we already have enough independence topics going.

 

In that case why the HELL has he started yet another one especally since weve got the real poll in a few weeks time?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[starchief]

mainstander has got it absolutely right.  Pay your taxes and get a vote.  Anyone that doesn't has as much relevance as Russians party trumpetting for the Papua New Guinea elections.

 

I also find it incredible some people think the best way to remain in the EU is to vote to be no longer in it with strong signals from both the EU and foreign governments that an application is necessary (it took Iceland 10 years before giving up).  Doubly so, if you think Scotland will get the EU unaninimity from the member countries (say, rUK for instance!) by dropping the debt.  And that's due to a fear that a party which has virtually no chance of a majority wants to hold a referendum on the EU, which most polls say would result in staying, besides which, that party, plus the other major party and the coalition partner will all (yes, all, even the party that wants a referendum) campaign to stay in the EU.  And that's even looking over the fact that there's little chance of the Tories being re-elected and no chance of the LDs supporting that, or Ukip winning anything like enough seats to be a junior government partner.

 

There are reasons for a Yes but the EU one is plainly ridiculous.

[Yngwie]

My thought for the day:  if you can't decide whether to vote with your heart or your head, go with your head.  Your heart is merely a pump, and pumps don't make good decisions.

[+Wanderer]

 Pay your taxes and get a vote. 

 

I pay taxes, into the UK treasury like everybody else. I also continue to pay Council Tax specifically in Scotland. But I don't get a vote. I'm a Scot presently living in England.

 

Meantime there are English students (and others) who are temporarily in Scotland paying minimally into any pot who will be deciding tomorrow whether I'm a foreigner in England on Friday and whether I'll be travelling with an English passport from 2016. 

 

I don't think I deserve a vote - I've moved away - but there are 1000s in Scotland with no interest in what the country will look like in 10 or 20 years who do. The way it's going they could be the difference tomorrow.

 

That's scary.

[Ayeseetee]

My thought for the day:  if you can't decide whether to vote with your heart or your head, go with your head.  Your heart is merely a pump, and pumps don't make good decisions.

 

If you want to get literal you might want to point out that your heart is just a "pump" and has no thinking power!

 

 

 

Did you get that line off the labour letter sent to voters saying "If you don't know just vote no"?

[Yngwie]

No, I made it up myself, as I have just done with this one based on your avatar. (Two thoughts in one day, this is unprecedented!)

 

"May your choices reflect your expectations rather than your hopes."

[Ayeseetee]

 

 Pay your taxes and get a vote. 

 

I pay taxes, into the UK treasury like everybody else. I also continue to pay Council Tax specifically in Scotland. But I don't get a vote. I'm a Scot presently living in England.

 

Meantime there are English students (and others) who are temporarily in Scotland paying minimally into any pot who will be deciding tomorrow whether I'm a foreigner in England on Friday and whether I'll be travelling with an English passport from 2016. 

 

I don't think I deserve a vote - I've moved away - but there are 1000s in Scotland with no interest in what the country will look like in 10 or 20 years who do. The way it's going they could be the difference tomorrow.

 

That's scary.

 

 

The way england deals with foreingers I am not surprised you are worried 

 

 

p.s I love my family in middlesbrough as much as the ones in sweden / ireland / usa so I fail to see your point....

[Ayeseetee]

"May your choices reflect your expectations rather than your hopes."

(yngwie)

 

"May your choices reflect your hopes not your fears."

(Nelson Mandela)

 

Edited September 17, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

It's not the first time we've been compared. 

[Yngwie]

But I don't get a vote. 

 

Well it transpires today that my wife isn't getting a vote either. She voted by post a couple of weeks ago, I checked it was all filled out and sealed up as per the instructions (and the X in the right box of course!). Tracked it online and found that they have logged receipt of the ballot paper itself, but not the Personal Voting Statement part (basically your signature and D.O.B) which was in the same envelope. 

 

After making several phone calls, the returning officer has just confirmed that unless the PVS miraculously turns up and gets scanned in, my wife’s vote is invalid and won’t be counted. But more surprisingly, there is no scope at all to offer any alternative means of voting!

 

Hopefully it is an isolated incident, but it is infuriating that the returning officer won’t entertain any suggestion that something could have gone wrong at their end and insists instead that the PVS can’t have been sent to them.   

[KingBeastie]

How did you find this out?

Is there a way to track your postal vote?

[Yngwie]

Yes, each one has a unique reference number that you can track on a website (but you need to have written down your number before you post it off, as there's no other way of getting it)

[+DoofersDad]

If you have a postal vote, presumably the voting form is sent to the voter's registered address and therefore it might be seen as reasonable that when the form is returned it has been returned by the registered voter.  If the form has been diverted and completed by someone else then the registered voter would presumably chase up the powers that be asking where their form is and the fraud would be detected.  Why then, does the voter have to sign a separate form which can then clearly be separated from the voting form thereby invalidating it and denying the voter of their basic democratic right?

 

This is quite different from what happens when you vote in person.  You don't even have to present your poll card let alone provide any form of identification.  There is significant potential for fraud.  For instance if you know that a specific individual will not be voting you could phone a friend and get them to turn up at the appropriate polling station and say they are that person.  Given that we are sent a polling card, I cannot for the life of me understand why we are not required to even present it.  Presenting it together with some form of identification would take no time at all but would make fraud very difficult.

 

In a normal election even if a result was changed due to fraud, this would only be for a single seat for a period of office and would have limited impact.  But whilst I would like to think fraud was very rare, it must be the case that in a referendum where the vote is very close, even a small amount of fraud could sway the vote with major and irrevocable consequences.

 

In a vote of this importance, we should be able to have an assurance that all votes appropriately submitted should be counted and that basic steps to eliminate fraudulant voting are in place.  Without this the losers in a close result will always have a concern that the result did not actually reflect the votes cast.

 

 

[+DoofersDad]

Cheers but I've gone for Yes at 3/1 instead!

 

If you have more money you'ld like to throw away, the odds are now 19/5 with Willam Hill.

Edited September 17, 2014 by DoofersDad

[Ten4]

Sadly, I fear that Betfair are safe enough. Although, if they are that confident, why don't they offer 50 to 1 or more against a Yes vote ?

Don't understand betting but apparently it's some publicity stunt where they don't pay out much, and by pure chance, the owner of the company is a big tory supporter.

It is desperation from the unionists and tories.

From what I understand about Gambling is that there are more losers than winners!!

Also was it not a recent Prime Minister who was in power when new betting & gambling regulations

took effect.

Hopefully he will be a loser tomorrow... Gordon Brown.

[dougiedanger]

It's going to happen, Yessers, keep the faith.

[Yngwie]

One of the many incredible things about all this is that on the eve of the vote, the handful of polls taken in the last 2 days still show between 5% and 14% of the electorate as "don't knows". That's hundreds of thousands of people!

[+DoofersDad]

Speaking to one of them today who was attracted to the principle that Scotland should have control over those matters which are not currently devolved but who was very concerned over the lack of clarity over the currency and the EU in particular.  He also commented on the widely differing statements about various issues and said he just didn't know who to believe.  I told him to believe me - but I'm not convinced he did. 

 

I think there are still a lot like my friend and my guess is that unless they suddenly have a "eureka" moment, they will tend to vote no both because there is often a tendency to say "better the devil you know" and because they recognise that there is no turning back from a YES vote.  This is possibly being reflected in the very latest polls which appear to show the "YES" surge having been stopped in its tracks with a slight reversal toward "NO". However, it is still desperately close and there is a significant margin for error in these polls.

 

After 2 years of debate, the future of Scotland depends on how these confused souls decide to cast their votes in the next few hours.  That's democracy for you!

[IBM]

Your last sentence says it all DD!  I think I am right, you think you are right but it is that close what we think wont make much difference tomorrow.  The good thing is we are getting a vote without battles and killings and hopefully whatever way it goes our politicians will work together and improve things for us. 

[+DoofersDad]

Absolutely.  Good to end the campaign on a note of agreement

[Scarlet Pimple]

 Mainstander

 

I have been a member of this website for about 10 years and feel I am just as entitled to express my opinion as you are or any other member is.

And as for the pension peeve to which you refer, remember that I paid in for 19 years to the NI and are not getting back in terms of value what was promised by Westminster. Currently , compared to anyone else who contributed at that time I am receiving about 23% less in the pension  in spending value--which is the only thing that matters to an old, decrepit, crippled pensioner who is exercising his democratic right to say what he thinks which is all that is left to him in his dotage. and whose wife left him last week to run off with the scaffie whose muscles are not as atrophied as mine.

 

Clearly you are riled up because some things I mention are  hitting the mark too firmly for you to accept. If so then you are probably not voting for the right side.

Then vote with your pen  and never mind trying to stifle honest opinions which is all hot air anyway ;  and as you grow older you will learn that the only person you can actually trust 100% on this journey through this mortal coil is yourself., and NOT any politician.

 

Good luck  to one and all  tomorrow.