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The Big Scottish Independence Debate


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Interesting.....from an FT columnist .....http://archive.today/u6JJF#selection-1917.0-1929.327

 

A quote......quite a long one to keep it in some context.......

 

The noise about “unfairness” is in inverse proportion to a more prosaic reality. There have been only a handful of occasions in recent decades when Scottish MPs have been “swing” voters. On at least two of them, during Tony Blair’s premiership, these MPs were voting with a government that had a majority in England. As for the myth that Labour invariably relies on Scotland for a majority at Westminster, the electoral facts show it is just that – a myth.
Home rule in Scotland does raise important questions about the governance of the rest of the UK. There is a legitimate debate to be had about if and when Scottish MPs should step back from voting at Westminster. There will also be room for scrutiny of the Barnett funding formula for public spending in Scotland once Edinburgh gains more fiscal autonomy.
But the prior question is whether England wants a parliament that represents all four nations of the union? If the answer is yes, then it cannot expect a formulaic English votes for English laws.
The strength of Britain’s unwritten constitution has lain in its capacity to accommodate anomalies and contradictions. If tidy English minds now redefine “fairness” as perfect symmetry between Scotland and England, the unavoidable consequence will be the break-up of the union. Mr Salmond, of course, is rubbing his hands at the prospect.
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My voting form arrived on the doorstep this morning. After, months and months (and years for some, and 'centuries' for others!) of debate, it's now become very, very real! There will be an actual vot

I have to be honest I have not looked at this post for six months maybe, just got so peeed off with the lies coming from both sides.   Oddquine by the way is a real person, of the more senior genera

Well. of course it does and they have never made any secret of the fact.which is why the Scottish Parliament voting system was deliberately set up by Westminster to ensure there would never be majorit

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So come on Charles, any ideas on using the political process to affect change for the 65million of us?

 

An independence referendum for Glasgow and Dundee? :tongueincheek:

 

Given that I am a member of the 55% majority who appear to be of the view that much of it ain't particularly broke etc etc and don't really share that radical socialist zeal for constant revolutionary change, my main priority would be for the Labour Party in particular to get its act in gear and provide a credible challenge to the Posh Boys who currently comprise the administration.

But unfortunately, having abandoned its traditional political ground and elected a leader who both looks and sounds like Mr Bean, ther Labour Party does have some way to go.

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So the sensible thing would be to support the party of social justice. The party who will deliver a fairer system of taxation than the current council tax system. One that will maintain free higher education for all. SNP. The only party with socialist ideals. Go on Charles. You know you want to.

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So come on Charles, any ideas on using the political process to affect change for the 65million of us?

 

An independence referendum for Glasgow and Dundee? :tongueincheek:

 

Given that I am a member of the 55% majority who appear to be of the view that much of it ain't particularly broke etc etc and don't really share that radical socialist zeal for constant revolutionary change, my main priority would be for the Labour Party in particular to get its act in gear and provide a credible challenge to the Posh Boys who currently comprise the administration.

But unfortunately, having abandoned its traditional political ground and elected a leader who both looks and sounds like Mr Bean, ther Labour Party does have some way to go.

 

 

From all that and whatever else I have read on here to date, you have no strong political convictions in any direction besides engaging in a seething rage against the SNP. 

 

You didnt even mention anything you've already complained about from the current SNP administration in Scotland that you would like to see change, such as decentralising the Police and other services. 

 

Assuming that the 55% are indeed quite happy for things to carry on as they have been, how many of the 55% majority do you think are aware of the true state of the UK economy, which is at the point where we are paying 13billion a year more in interest payemnts than we are on the entire military, with nothing going into repayments?

 

As things stand today in 2014, state pensions and public sector pensions are currently funded on a 'borrow-as-you-go' basis, do you think the 55% are even bothered?

 

One ripple effect from the debates coverage nationally that I wasnt expecting was the issue of elderly care in England, where people locally have started to question why they were so happy about having a spending cap of £70,000+ for services provided in Scotland for free, so that could lead to a benefit here if the old dears stay alive long enough to affect change.  It'll come with a price but then people here were also unaware that more tax is raised per head in Scotland, which has tempered a lot of the 'you are all addicted to benefits' line I heard in the early days of the referendum debate.

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So the sensible thing would be to support the party of social justice. The party who will deliver a fairer system of taxation than the current council tax system. One that will maintain free higher education for all. SNP. The only party with socialist ideals. Go on Charles. You know you want to.

The party which spotted a political vacuum and cynically decided to start to "believe" in the things that would fill it by becoming crowd pleasers and exploiting the politically unastute.

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An independence referendum for Glasgow and Dundee? :tongueincheek:

So come on Charles, any ideas on using the political process to affect change for the 65million of us?

 

 

Given that I am a member of the 55% majority who appear to be of the view that much of it ain't particularly broke etc etc

 

If that's why the majority voted No they are living in cloud cuckoo land..................even the Tory MP's are defecting! 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29394697

 

 

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Charles, one day you may look in a mirror and see the most miserable and discontented looking gob outwith Scottish politics.

 

Oddquine, why is fracking such a big thing when it happens on land yet nobody cares when its been happening under the sea ever since oil and gas were discovered?

 

 Because the sea is not populated by people who have homes on the seabed, Alex........and people on rigs tend not to drink water drawn from the sea bed. People on rigs choose to be on rigs. The rigs weren't there first and oil companies came in and drilled beneath them without a by your leave on the say so of politicians sitting in Westminster....

.http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scottish-householders-rights-to-object-to-fracking-to-be-removed-108e.aspx

 

99% of the tens of thousands who responded to the consultation were against it...but Westminster has decided that  the 1% of those for it, which probably mostly consisted of those who could profit from it, like the oil and gas companies, have more rights than anybody else.....which shows how little democracy means as far as Westminster is concerned. Into the bargain, the company which produced the Geological report, on which the Government relied, is funded largely by oil and gas companies, which makes their impartiality suspect. Where is the democracy when Westminster can ignore the Scottish People and Parliament, and introduce a "one size fits all" policy, which only benefits Westminster....because energy is a reserved subject, and the House of Lords had, probably in anticipation of this coming up, removed what little control we had over any aspect of energy. If Westminster can make money to meet their bills, it seems, what does it matter about the people.

 

There have been earthquakes in Blackpool, and since Central Scotland is on two fault lines, densely populated and most of the communities are built on top of historic mines, coal bings, shale and sand, there are obvious risks. Edinburgh has a lot of historic tenement housing, much of which is already cracked and stressed by subsidence and ground movement. How is it responsible practice to give blanket approval to the likes of UCG, which is known to cause seismic activity?

 

It is funny really, we are no longer ruled by a Monarch who believes in the divine right of Kings, we are ruled  by a Committee Replacement who believe they have the divine right of kings.

 

Edited to add.......and just to prove conclusively that they don't do giving a toss about anything but what they want , they are going to spend £3 billion of our money in fighting yet again in Iraq, and to pay for it, rather than scrap Trident, (or take the bonuses away from three or four RBS of the bankers we employ....or sell off some of the bank), or stop the buy-to-let tax  subsidy......or scrap HS2........they are going to make those of working age on benefits, because there aren't any real jobs, pay for the War with a two year freeze on those benefits. Aren't we all just so much Better Together!   NOT! 

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I think the response to this consultation demonstrates the hazards of democracy and the way people manipulate situations for their own political end.  Essentially this was a minor consultation document specifically related to access for deep drilling.  It was not about the merits of exploiting shale oil and gas per se.  The vast majority of responses were campaign responses giving one of two standards texts or free-form responses based on the arguments of those standard texts.  The arguments used were related to the general objection to the principle of extracting shale oil and gas even though that was not the subject of the consultation.  In effect, the proposals simply align policy for oil, gas and geothermal energy with that already existing for coal.  If the vast majority of the respondents ignore the detail of the consultation paper in their responses, it is not unreasonable that the government don't feel that the statements require change in the proposals.  And the Government has not simply ignored the people - far from it.  The response details the points made in objections even when not directly related to the subject of the consultation and gives clear reasons why these arguments do not justify change to the proposals. 

 

This consultation was about access.  It in no way changes the requirements for planning permission and regulatory control.  Any application will require the appropriate approvals before access is applied for and therefore any reasonable concern about specific proposals will continue to be addressed through the democratic process.  What the legislation does is to remove an individual landowner's right to to block developments which appropriate democratic and regulatory procedures have demonstrated to be in the public interest.  Those objecting to the proposal are, in effect, defending an individual's right to block (for purely selfish reasons) an application which has obtained approval through robust democratic process - and then they complain about the view of the people being ignored!

 

It is interesting that a majority of local authorities who responded were supportive of the proposals.  They represent their local communities and understood what the consultation was about.  They understood that this had no bearing on the merits of any individual application but would help to avoid hugely expensive legal wrangles about access and delay to projects in the public interest.

 

As to the scare stories about earthquakes, it is is also of interest to note the attitude of the insurance industry.  They are the businesses which could suffer serious financial problems if fracking led to some of the alleged problems and there were major claims as a result.  They have looked very hard at the evidence and have no concerns.

 

What is a concern here is the attitude of the Scottish energy minister.  This is legislation he should be supporting in order to allow a better understanding of the level of geothermal and shale oil and gas resources in Scotland as well as preventing unnecessary delays in exploiting them.  But no.  Because this comes from Westminster he behaves like an ill-informed pressure group spokesman and makes comments designed to appeal to the masses.  It seems he would rather play silly political games and keep a system that wastes public money and denies us access to energy resources than explain a correct but unpopular decision to a public misinformed by politically motivated pressure groups

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

And the stature of Charles is what, exactly?

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

And the stature of Charles is what, exactly?

2 foot 2 in his Clark's Commandoes.

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So the sensible thing would be to support the party of social justice. The party who will deliver a fairer system of taxation than the current council tax system. One that will maintain free higher education for all. SNP. The only party with socialist ideals. Go on Charles. You know you want to.

The party which spotted a political vacuum and cynically decided to start to "believe" in the things that would fill it by becoming crowd pleasers and exploiting the politically unastute.

 

 

Are you dismissing all of us, SNP supporters or not, who think the SNP have done a thoroughly competent job of governing the country for the last seven years as unastute ?

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

Goodness gracious what a mob youngsters are these days. No respect for their elders and betters. Sooner as we bring back the birch and/or National Service the better...

Edited by Kingsmills
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So the sensible thing would be to support the party of social justice. The party who will deliver a fairer system of taxation than the current council tax system. One that will maintain free higher education for all. SNP. The only party with socialist ideals. Go on Charles. You know you want to.

The party which spotted a political vacuum and cynically decided to start to "believe" in the things that would fill it by becoming crowd pleasers and exploiting the politically unastute.

 

 

Are you dismissing all of us, SNP supporters or not, who think the SNP have done a thoroughly competent job of governing the country for the last seven years as unastute ?

 

I would simply suggest, that for reasons ranging from the inept implementation for the Curriculum for Excellence in Education through the financial hamstringing of local authorities by way of a Council Tax freeze to a National Police Force which is rapidly losing public confidence, the SNP has not been doing a particularly good job of dealing with those matters which have been devolved to Holyrood.

However that is not entirely unexpected, given that for the last 3 odd years the only thing they have given a toss about has been their Referendum.

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Reports are coming through to New Zealand about a conspiracy group who rigged the vote at the referendum in favor of  the No vote.

 

Seemingly Yes voters believe that a coalition of Elvis, George W Bush, The Shooter from the Grassy Knoll, Senior Freemasons and Senior Illuminati gathered in Roswell with various Alien species and hatched a very successful plot to overturn the Yes vote.  Upwards of 100,000 Yes supporters have seemingly signed a petition in protest and are demanding a recount or another referendum. 

 

Is this all true?

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Reports are coming through to New Zealand about a conspiracy group who rigged the vote at the referendum in favor of  the No vote.

 

Seemingly Yes voters believe that a coalition of Elvis, George W Bush, The Shooter from the Grassy Knoll, Senior Freemasons and Senior Illuminati gathered in Roswell with various Alien species and hatched a very successful plot to overturn the Yes vote.  Upwards of 100,000 Yes supporters have seemingly signed a petition in protest and are demanding a recount or another referendum. 

 

Is this all true?

The list which has reached NZ is actually incomplete. You are clearly not aware of the thick wad of 400,000 false papers marked "NO" that Lord Lucan smuggled in, hidden up Shergar's backside.

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

Goodness gracious what a mob youngsters are these days. No respect for their elders and betters. Sooner as we bring back the birch and/or National Service the better...

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Bring my wife into your ramblings well you are at it.

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The Smith Commission is likely to produce proposals for some significant increase in devolved powers for Scotland.  I wonder what people think about putting any proposals which emerge to the people in another referendum?  There is talk about obtaining political consensus but I have heard no suggestion that the outcome will be put to the electorate.

 

We have had a referendum which led to the Holyrood Parliament with limited devolved powers and we have had a referendum at which independence has been rejected.  What we might end up with is "Devo-max" which is the one option the electorate has not had the opportunity to vote on.  That strikes me as fundamentally undemocratic.

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

And the stature of Charles is what, exactly?

From my own observations

He is a prominent member of the community

He is the author of Against all odds a book unrivalled when it comes to football histories

He is a top journalist and is employed by the BBC

I am told by many people he is a very good lecturer and teacher

He has the guts to put his name to his posts more than I can say for most of you who continually run him down ( Alex excluded)

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

And the stature of Charles is what, exactly?

 

From my own observations

He is a prominent member of the community

He is the author of Against all odds a book unrivalled when it comes to football histories

He is a top journalist and is employed by the BBC

I am told by many people he is a very good lecturer and teacher

He has the guts to put his name to his posts more than I can say for most of you who continually run him down ( Alex excluded)

Laurence.... I await with anticipation and potential amusement the response of certain usual suspects to your kind words :smile:

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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

Goodness gracious what a mob youngsters are these days. No respect for their elders and betters. Sooner as we bring back the birch and/or National Service the better...

 

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

 

Are you aware that the late and rather clever Mr Wilde was being sarcastic when he was said to have coined that phrase that many of those not capable of sarcasm or original thought have resorted to citing ever since ?

 

Anyway, would sardonicism not be a rather lower form of wit ?

Edited by Kingsmills
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one of the many problems of social media is that faceless individuals ( not you Alex).

Can attack without reservations a personality of the stature of Charles with out mercy

I speak as an old senior citizen who was told to go and live in North Korea by a teenager

A think a bit of dignity is called for by the sore losers involved in the yes vote

 

Goodness gracious what a mob youngsters are these days. No respect for their elders and betters. Sooner as we bring back the birch and/or National Service the better...

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Are you aware that the late and rather clever Mr Wilde was being sarcastic when he was said to have coined that phrase that many of those not capable of sarcasm or original thought have resorted to citing ever since ?

 

Anyway, would sardonicism not be a rather lower form of wit ?

When did you have an original thought?

You speak on issues brought forward by others never can I remember you putting forward an original view.

You gun from the side-lines and think it is funny

You pertain to speak on behalf of the club. When I suspect you don't have any genuine connection with running the club

you are not in my book a person to be respected.

Any body who brings a guys personal life into a perfectly honest question about a lack of a scoreboard at the club who resorts to personal abuse for no reason I can see does not deserve any respect.

I think the reason you post on this forum is to show off to your mates, cut it out and grow up.

Edited by Laurence
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