Should Scotland be an independent country

[PullMyFinger]

 

I'm not sure what the figures are for the declaration and personally they don't mean anything to me. What signing the declaration does is give good leads to the campaign for volunteers to help with leafletting, etc..

 

This year we should expect to have a new leaflet every couple of months increasing next year and stopping 16 weeks befor the referendum date when the campaign proper starts and hopefully we'll have some live discussion on national television where both sides have their case heard.

 

So come on folks, we can do it with your help.

 

[Sneckboy]

Live debates on the telly in the run-up to the vote would great and I'm sure would attract big viewing audiences. I read that Salmond has said he'd willingly go head-to-head with David Cameron in such a scenario! That, I'd PAY to see! The SNP leader is such a persuasive orator, he would likely impress and get some of the 'undecided's' on board.

[Sneckboy]

Question for PullMyFinger. What was your take on the recent Glasgow University mock poll? Was it 38 - 52? I expected it to be closer than that with predominantly 'young' voters! I've a niece and nephew aged 21 and 19, who don't follow politics closely but who have assured me, will be voting for independence!

Getting 16 and 17 year olds eligible to vote would be a huge advantage to the Yes campaign, I think.

[+DoofersDad]

There's been 34 or more countries become independant since 1990, many smaller than Scotland and with less resources. None looking back and many of them thriving.

 

 

This is an argument that is often rolled out and one which on the face of it sounds convincing.  I certainly don't know what countries these all are but I do know that many of these countries were previously under the subjugation of a larger power in a way in which even the most ardent of nationalists could never honestly argue that Scotland is.  The countries of the former Soviet bloc spring to mind, for example.

 

I don't underestimate the importance of the fact that none of these countries wants to go back, but let's not overestimate it either. It is important that we compare like with like if this sort of argument is to be used.  After all, let's not forget that large numbers of citizens of some of these recently independent countries have chosen to leave their countries and live in Scotland!  Citizens of countries like Latvia and Lithuania may be glad to be free from Russian domination but they still feel they are better off in a Scotland which is part of a Union than in their own independent countries.  Other countries have separated on clear ethnic or religious divisions which are also not relevant to our situation.

 

Rather than trundle out what are really rather meaningless statistics, it would be more constructive to identify countries which had similar levels of prosperity, freedoms etc as Scotland before gaining independence and to identify how the people have benefited both financially and culturally as a result.  If someone in the "yes" camp could provide some evidence of benefit in a country where comparison was meaningful, then that would be a helpful contribution to the debate.  Similarly, if someone in the "no" camp could provide evidence to the contrary, that too would be helpful.

[Yngwie]

Live debates on the telly in the run-up to the vote would great and I'm sure would attract big viewing audiences. I read that Salmond has said he'd willingly go head-to-head with David Cameron in such a scenario!

 

I would agree that the debate won't really get going until the TV debates happen, and they could be very influential.  However it'll be Alastair Darling, the head of the Better Together campaign, rather than the PM.  I don't think Cameron actually has any official role in all this, and if he got too involved Salmon would play the "meddling in affairs that are for the Scottish people to decide" card.

[PaderbornCaley]

Live debates on the telly in the run-up to the vote would great and I'm sure would attract big viewing audiences. I read that Salmond has said he'd willingly go head-to-head with David Cameron in such a scenario!

 

I would agree that the debate won't really get going until the TV debates happen, and they could be very influential.  However it'll be Alastair Darling, the head of the Better Together campaign, rather than the PM.  I don't think Cameron actually has any official role in all this, and if he got too involved Salmon would play the "meddling in affairs that are for the Scottish people to decide" card.

 

I'd imagine it would be Darling v Canavan.

 

Dennis Canavan Chairs the advisory board of Yes and his role is a closer match to Darlings in the Bitter Together Camp.  Tactically it would be a smart move by Yes as Canavan (former Labour MP) is 'old school' Labour and would give New Labour Darling a right rollicking.  It would show there's more than just SNP and Salmond who are pro-independence. 

[Yngwie]

 

 

This is an argument that is often rolled out and one which on the face of it sounds convincing.  I certainly don't know what countries these all are but I do know that many of these countries were previously under the subjugation of a larger power in a way in which even the most ardent of nationalists could never honestly argue that Scotland is.  The countries of the former Soviet bloc spring to mind, for example.

 

Yes it might initially sound convincing but in reality it is completely and utterly irrelevant when you look at the circumstances. I think pretty much all of the countires in question had been forced into a union within living memory of its citizens.

Former Soviet Union

• Armenia
• Azerbaijan
• Belarus
• Estonia
• Georgia
• Kazakhstan
• Kyrgyzstan
• Latvia
• Lithuania
• Moldova
• Russia
• Tajikistan
• Turkmenistan
• Ukraine
• Uzbekistan

Former Yugoslavia

• Bosnia and Herzegovina,
• Croatia,
• Macedonia
• Serbia
• Kosovo
• Montenegro,
• Slovenia

 

 

Other

• March 21, 1990 - Namibia became independent of South Africa.
• May 22, 1990 - North and South Yemen merged to form a unified Yemen.
• September 17, 1991 - The Marshall Islands was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
• September 17, 1991 - Micronesia, previously known as the Caroline Islands, became independent from the United States.
• January 1, 1993 - The Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent nations when Czechoslovakia dissolved.
• May 25, 1993 - Eritrea was a part of Ethiopia but seceded and gained independence.
• October 1, 1994 - Palau was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.
• May 20, 2002 - East Timor (Timor-Leste) declared independence from Portugal in 1975 but did not became independent from Indonesia until 2002.
• July 9, 2011 - South Sudan peacefully seceded from Sudan following a January 2011 referendum. Sudan itself was the first to recognize South Sudan and did so one day early, on July 8, 2011.

[PullMyFinger]

Question for PullMyFinger. What was your take on the recent Glasgow University mock poll? Was it 38 - 52? I expected it to be closer than that with predominantly 'young' voters! I've a niece and nephew aged 21 and 19, who don't follow politics closely but who have assured me, will be voting for independence!

Getting 16 and 17 year olds eligible to vote would be a huge advantage to the Yes campaign, I think.

 

The mock poll at Glasgow University had a low turnout (higher than most student polls) and many students were either unaware or disinterested in the poll. Traditionally the establishment at Glasgow University is very much unionist, consider that the CPPR is based there and how they reported recent events in respect to the future of North Sea Oil. It would be unwise to take such a poll and use it as some evidence of a drop in support for independence. What next? The poll on this thread? Ridiculous really to think like that. The only polls of any relevance are taken over a large section of the population and a wide demographic mix.

 

Getting 16 & 17 year olds the right to vote is good, getting them to vote will be a different thing completely. Their life experiences won't amount to a great deal and so they may be more idealistic, then again some (probably most) will vote the same way as their parents. I believe that the debate will come up for discussion in schools before the referendum but I doubt if that will help give the young adults both sides of the argument in a balanced way. A certain teacher on this forum is conspicuous by his absence on this thread. Then again like most unionists he has nothing positive to say about the union, just attacks on the pro-independence side.

 

 

There's been 34 or more countries become independant since 1990, many smaller than Scotland and with less resources. None looking back and many of them thriving.

 

 

This is an argument that is often rolled out and one which on the face of it sounds convincing.  I certainly don't know what countries these all are but I do know that many of these countries were previously under the subjugation of a larger power in a way in which even the most ardent of nationalists could never honestly argue that Scotland is.  The countries of the former Soviet bloc spring to mind, for example.

 

I don't underestimate the importance of the fact that none of these countries wants to go back, but let's not overestimate it either. It is important that we compare like with like if this sort of argument is to be used.  After all, let's not forget that large numbers of citizens of some of these recently independent countries have chosen to leave their countries and live in Scotland!  Citizens of countries like Latvia and Lithuania may be glad to be free from Russian domination but they still feel they are better off in a Scotland which is part of a Union than in their own independent countries.  Other countries have separated on clear ethnic or religious divisions which are also not relevant to our situation.

 

Rather than trundle out what are really rather meaningless statistics, it would be more constructive to identify countries which had similar levels of prosperity, freedoms etc as Scotland before gaining independence and to identify how the people have benefited both financially and culturally as a result.  If someone in the "yes" camp could provide some evidence of benefit in a country where comparison was meaningful, then that would be a helpful contribution to the debate.  Similarly, if someone in the "no" camp could provide evidence to the contrary, that too would be helpful.

 

Here's a list of the 34 countries, the most relevant ones would be Czech Republic and Slovakia who have both benefitted from parting. Interesting that Germany is there and it's been a mixed bag since reunification, the east is wealthier and the west has generally maintained their standard of living but are subsidising the east through taxation. They are also heavily into the Euro project which hasn't been good for them lately.

Kazakhstan is an interesting one, the oil industry there is booming now and the investment required, technical staff and knowledge base wouldn't have been available in the times of the USSR with the closed doors policy. Politically it's a basketcase though.

Armenia

Azerbaijan

Belarus

Estonia

Georgia

Kazakhstan

Kyrgyzstan

Latvia

Lithuania

Moldova

Russia

Tajikistan

Turkmenistan

Ukraine

Uzbekistan

Bosnia and Herzegovina

Croatia

Macedonia

Serbia and Montenegro

Slovenia

Micronesia

Namibia

Yemen

Germany

Marshall Islands

Czech Republic

Slovakia

Eritrea

Palau

East Timor (Timor-Leste)

Montenegro

Serbia

Kosovo

South Sudan

  

 

Edit, I see Mr Malmsteen beat me to the list

Edited March 29, 2013 by PullMyFinger

[Sneckboy]

Thanks for your response, PullMyFinger. You better watch what you say, or you might get Bann(erman)ed from the thread!

[PullMyFinger]

Thanks for your response, PullMyFinger. You better watch what you say, or you might get Bann(erman)ed from the thread!

 

As long as I don't mention Jimmy Crankie's tadger I'm okay. Oh feck........

[Yngwie]

Here's a list of the 34 countries, the most relevant ones would be Czech Republic and Slovakia

 

Don't know much about them (other than a cracking weekend in Prague!) but don't they speak different languages, which makes separation desirable or even inevitable?

[PullMyFinger]

Live debates on the telly in the run-up to the vote would great and I'm sure would attract big viewing audiences. I read that Salmond has said he'd willingly go head-to-head with David Cameron in such a scenario!

 

I would agree that the debate won't really get going until the TV debates happen, and they could be very influential.  However it'll be Alastair Darling, the head of the Better Together campaign, rather than the PM.  I don't think Cameron actually has any official role in all this, and if he got too involved Salmon would play the "meddling in affairs that are for the Scottish people to decide" card.

 

As the most senior officer of YesScotland, it should be Blair Jenkins against Alastair Darling. This pleases me.

 

Meddling or not, as the prime minister it is Camerons responsibility to preserve the UK. He should and I suspect will debate against Alex Salmond at some point in the summer or early autumn next year. This pleases me, too.

 

Am I easily pleased? Ask me on 22nd September 2014.

[PullMyFinger]

The SNP love “Braveheart” because it helps them in their cynical aim of fostering xenophobia and getting little kids beaten up.

 

Story in the Radio Times.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/we-paid-for-this/#more-31692

[PullMyFinger]

Here's a list of the 34 countries, the most relevant ones would be Czech Republic and Slovakia

 

Don't know much about them (other than a cracking weekend in Prague!) but don't they speak different languages, which makes separation desirable or even inevitable?

 

Their languages were very similar. Think English and Scots.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Slovak_and_Czech

 

Anyway language is not a reason to split, look at the US, Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain, India, etc. who have multiple languages.

 

Should Scotland gain independence are we to split the country again (gaelic speakers, Scots speakers, English speakers, Polish speakers) ? I think not.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Languages_of_Scotland_1400_AD.svg

[Yngwie]

Language is quite a significant manifestation of different history and culture, and makes people feel they have a different identity to others. Its a source of tension even in places like Belgium.

[PullMyFinger]

Racial tension, would you say there's a racist (rather than nationalist) element in the independence movement? If so, any more than the norm of any group of people? Do you write for the Radio Times?

[CorrieHarrier]

This is an argument that is often rolled out and one which on the face of it sounds convincing. I certainly don't know what countries these all are but I do know that many of these countries were previously under the subjugation of a larger power in a way in which even the most ardent of nationalists could never honestly argue that Scotland is. The countries of the former Soviet bloc spring to mind, for example.

Yes it might initially sound convincing but in reality it is completely and utterly irrelevant when you look at the circumstances. I think pretty much all of the countires in question had been forced into a union within living memory of its citizens.

[b

Escaping communism for example though, doesn't feel to me as a Scottish citizen, any more or less valid a reason for independence than me wishing to have a country with its own government, in charge of all it's revenue and resources rather than ruled by a government on the banks of the Thames.

I think if you are going to highlight the numbers of citizens leaving some of these countries to come here, it would be fair to say also that much of this is down to the accession of countries to the E.U. and that the migration of people has been to many other countries that are themselves independent. The U.K. Is ranked only 3rd or 4th in Europe I think in terms of volume of migrants taken in. It would be fair to say large numbers of Scots have left the U.K. also and indeed that with this recession the U.K. is in, many Poles, Hungarians etc are going home now with more opportunities there for them.

You're right though, it's important to compare like with like and on the face of it we'd be better looking at the list of countries that have become independent of the U.K. over the years. I won't bother linking a list as its as long as both arms but obviously includes the likes of Austrailia, Ireland, India and many African nations. I did have a chuckle whilst reading an article on India's independence that criticised the British government for "leaving Indians poorer, exhorting high taxation in cash from an inpecunious people, draining Indian revenues to pay for bureaucracy and sterling debt, and not ensuring the gains from capital investment were reinvested in the Indian economy but rather to London". During the Indian independence movement the U.K. also used a tactic of trying to pacify India with some devolved powers. Certainly sounded familiar somehow.

The problem with comparing other nations in terms of economic and cultural benefits though is the differences in population, infrastructure and resources are huge. Many of these countries, even ones that are flourishing, have come from a position way behind ours. Scotland has one of the best set of accounts of any developed nation which gives a great foundation. Scotland also owns 90% of UK oil, 50% of UK gas, 25 % of the renewables of the entire EU, 60% of UK fisheries, 60% of UK forests, 85 % of Hydro capability and whisky makes up 23% of all UK food and drink exports. And, all for 8.6% of the UK population! It's not rocket science and its no leap of faith for me whatsoever to believe we can flourish in a way similar sized nations with relative resourses like Norway have. This together with our famous ingenuity leads me to ask, why are we not doing better? Why are 1 in 4 Scots children living in poverty? Why do we live in a country with such an inequality in health and such a gap between rich and poor?

All the facts in the debate point to the chance to build a better country and it speaks volumes that there is no positive case for the union to be seen or heard from the Better Together campaign, but they're good at telling us what we can't do and publicising ludicrous scare stories.

Edited March 30, 2013 by CorrieHarrier

[CorrieHarrier]

Thanks for your response, PullMyFinger. You better watch what you say, or you might get Bann(erman)ed from the thread!

Bann ermaned from the thread? Missed that, was this a troll or one of the really bitter together bunch maybe?

[Yngwie]

Racial tension, would you say there's a racist (rather than nationalist) element in the independence movement? If so, any more than the norm of any group of people? Do you write for the Radio Times?

 

Not sure where you got any of that from, when the point I was making was pretty much the very opposite ie Scotland has less compelling "ethnicity" reasons for independence than a lot of the others from the list.

[PullMyFinger]

Thanks for your response, PullMyFinger. You better watch what you say, or you might get Bann(erman)ed from the thread!

Bann ermaned from the thread? Missed that, was this a troll or one of the really bitter together bunch maybe?

 

I overstepped the line of what is acceptable by making a comment about a regular poster on here who incidentally hasn't shown his face in this thread. I was rightly banned from that thread. It just bothers me when people in responsible jobs are so overly opinionated and I wonder if they promote their opinions as fact to those in their charge.

 

Racial tension, would you say there's a racist (rather than nationalist) element in the independence movement? If so, any more than the norm of any group of people? Do you write for the Radio Times?

 

Not sure where you got any of that from, when the point I was making was pretty much the very opposite ie Scotland has less compelling "ethnicity" reasons for independence than a lot of the others from the list.

 

My bad, I must have misunderstood your post. Sorry.

Edited March 30, 2013 by PullMyFinger

[+DoofersDad]

A good response by CorrieHarrier in post 67.  This is the type of constructive response which is required in this important debate.  In my previous post I asked both sides to respond to my point.  It would be nice to think that a similarly well argued response might come from those wish to  maintain the Union.

 

I will just pick up on the reference to poverty and the gap between rich and poor.  Presumably these are things which CorrieHarrier feels will improve in an independent Scotland.  The problem with emotive statistics around childhood poverty is that the scale of the problem is dependent on the definition of poverty - and the definition is certainly very different now to when I was a child.  25% of children certainly do not live in the kind of economic poverty that existed 50 years ago.  Maybe more live in social and emotional poverty but that is very subjective and not something that is easily measured. 

 

As for the gap between rich and poor, I wonder if it is much different here than in other developed countries.  It could be less than it is but that rather assumes that it should be less.  My view is that it perhaps should be less but a significant gap needs to exist to encourage innovation and to reward people for doing more difficult and stressful jobs.  To me the problem is that we are too tolerant of those who abuse our economic system.  And by that, I don't just mean the twin evils of benefits and tax fraud, I mean the dependency culture which has emerged in the UK whereby people can quite legally receive a range of benefits and live a tolerably comfortable life without making any contributions, or live a very comfortable life by tax evasion.  We live in a society where more attention is paid to upholding the rights of citizens than in expecting the citizens to discharge their responsibilities - and the honest taxpayer foots the bill.  It's all about what the state can do for me and how I can exploit the system rather than what I can do for the state.  Will that change in an independent Scotland?  Will independence really change the dependency culture or, if the economy thrives in an independent Scotland, will we simply hand out even more to those who are more concerned with their rights than their responsibilities?

[PullMyFinger]

Anyone care to put forward a case positive or otherwise for the status quo? I for one won't hold my breath.

[PullMyFinger]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/prime-minister-david-cameron-backs-1794754

Cameron wants OF straight into premiership.

Getting desperate. I wonder what other treats are in store from jam Tomorrow?

[PullMyFinger]

This is the calibre of Labour MP we have in Westminster.

 

On the new "bedroom tax" imposed by Westminster".

 

Iain Davidson was absent from the division in the Commons in 24th October 2012 http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2012-10-24&number=84&display=allpossible

and from the vote on Opposition day on 27th February 2013.

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-02-27&number=167&display=allpossible

He claims to have voted "no", during a protest march against the tax in the linked video.

 

Warning strong language on youtube link!

 

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/ian-davidson-is-a-liar/#more-31733

 

Edit to add links to publicwhip website (safe for work  ).

Edited March 31, 2013 by PullMyFinger

[Oddquine]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/prime-minister-david-cameron-backs-1794754

Cameron wants OF straight into premiership.

Getting desperate. I wonder what other treats are in store from jam Tomorrow?

 

Is this only if we vote NO?

 

Almost worth voting NO if it will get rid of the OF from Scottish fitba forever! (only joking!)

Edited March 31, 2013 by Oddquine