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union jack at Perth game


Joe DiMaggio

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This is unbelievable! a british flag with inverness on it is not a problem what so ever considering were all british citizens and part of the united kingdom, there's some amount of morons on this get a grip 

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The british army fly that flag so do the courts that protect you and your family every minute of every day! guess your going to tar them with the same brush.

You don't have talk some nonsense You started this nonsense!

Aye its cause of the snp that the union flag is associated with rangers and their bigoted ways in Scottish football. Right you are.

A few years ago there was the same bunch of boys waving a union flag and singing bigoted songs and every one condemned them as we don't need that association for our club, now everyone is suddenly part of the rule Britania brigade. Maybe join in with their fienian abuse at the next celtic game?

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The british army fly that flag so do the courts that protect you and your family every minute of every day! guess your going to tar them with the same brush.

You don't have talk some nonsense You started this nonsense!

Aye its cause of the snp that the union flag is associated with rangers and their bigoted ways in Scottish football. Right you are.

A few years ago there was the same bunch of boys waving a union flag and singing bigoted songs and every one condemned them as we don't need that association for our club, now everyone is suddenly part of the rule Britania brigade. Maybe join in with their fienian abuse at the next celtic game?

 

 

:blink:

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The saddest thing is that this thread has got feck all to do with football and probably deflects from the more important issue as to what went feckin wrong yesterday.

The voice of sanity speaks! IHE has hit the nail squarely on the head. This is the ICT thread within the "Football and other sport" section of this site.

If  this was www.chippyjimmy.com or such like, then it might be different. But since it's not, the obviously politically motivated gripe which the original poster seems hellbent on pursuing has no place in this section and should have been made elsewhere - in the Independence Debate thread or better still in General Nonsense.

But at least there is one interesting observation to be made about this thread in relation to what it was REALLY started to say. I am referring to the extent to which this politically motivated claptrap seems to be prompting viewpoints on the Union from the silent majority who are now making their views very clear.

So from that point of view, and to return to IHE's theme, the starting of this thread has at least provided one thing that didn't materialise in Perth yesterday - a spectacular own goal!

If anyone wants to have a rant against the Union, the "Independence Debate" thread is the place to do it - not here!

 

PS - the guy who nicked the flag and wouldn't give it back wasn't a reincarnation of Willie Bell by any chance? :lol:

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Struan, I dont consider myself a moron, and though we may have very different opinions, that is why there are eighty posts and not four - because views differ, resorting to calling people morons isn't exactly on.

The British flag in Scottish football is synonymous with Rangers. Fact. Deck the stadiums in them, but all you are doing is unnecessarily associating ICT with Rangers.

I am British, I write 'I am British' twice a year at least, but we are talking about the context of Scottish football! and if you bring a union flag to an ICT game, you cannot, unless you know nothing of basic society, football, or history, say that you are simply colour matching.

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IHE, Charles, you are seriously saying that 80 + posts on someone storming up and taking someone else's flag isn't to be debated. It's a fan forum, discussion, any debate regarding ICT, if it's not libelous or offensive, is the purpose of a forum, why the negativity if it is what people want to talk about?

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IHE, Charles, you are seriously saying that 80 + posts on someone storming up and taking someone else's flag isn't to be debated.

No I'm not. I'm simply saying that the discussion, given its obvious motivation, is in the wrong forum and would be better pursued in the Independence Debate or General nonsense sections.

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Obvious? it was about something that happened in the ICT support, talking about the issue of flags, football and the way they can be perceived. Yes, it may cross into that with some posters due to its popular nature, but that is language and the way we use it. Every time there is a more interesting thread, it is suddenly off topic and people who wish to post are made to feel unease.

Thanks.

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But since it's not, the obviously politically motivated gripe which the original poster seems hellbent on pursuing.

Prompting viewpoints on the Union from the silent majority who are now making their views very clear.

The usual contradictions from you here

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And you wonder why attendances are down at home games.one of the reasons this will be my last season ticket.

A reason for me to get one next season!

This is not the case of a soldier putting Inverness on the flag of similar colours. Even if we forget the associations with rangers which we will then be connected to, which is something we don't really need.

This is both political and sectarian in intentions which has no place at our games. I actually know some of those boys who have posted pictures of them holding their flag in the street. I've had the inconvenience of sitting near them on the train signing rule Britania and also singing about dirty fienian fuc*ers at Caledonian stadium. Still...let's be the rangers of the north eh

Edited by Joe DiMaggio
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And this is the crux of the matter.  You'd have to be very, very naive to say that in no way do you, in the context of Scottish football, think the union flag isn't representative of something else.   It is nigh on impossible to be a long-term supporter of Scottish football  to think printing Inverness on a union flag is in no way connected to Rangers.  In fact, the general public would know as much. 

 

All this other hooey about politics is deflecting from a serious issue, that none of us want and know fine well exist, Inverness old firm fans using ICT as a platform.  Now, regardless of the owner of the flag's intention or motives, that is what is the issue here and that is why people get very concerned and rightly so. 

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Years ago my ICT tops used to get mistaken for Rangers tops and we used to be associated with them for the reason no neutrals really knew who we were.   Our identity has grown since then and i haven't had anyone come up to me for years and mistake me for a Rangers fan.  Everyone needs to get past this fear of being the Rangers of the north,  We are too big a club now to even be considered as a sister club to someone else now.  Yes the Union Jack has association with Rangers but who cares, We aren't Rangers and i don't think anyone else seriously thinks we are either! It's stupid to suggest that we can't bring in the British flag to an ICT match when our entire team is built up on British players.  

 

As someone mentioned above, i took no offence to the Irish flag being displayed as it was a support for our Irish connection so why is that any different?  

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We will always be known as the Rangers of the North by some but who really cares, we know better. 

 

I don't know the motives for those flying the Union Jack but I have seen flags of many nations at many grounds and I, maybe naively, think that there are in support of players from that country that play for their club.

 

There is certainly no place for sectarian chanting at ICT and while I would prefer to see just plain old ICT flags I also don't get worked up when I see another flag, particularly when it has Inverness written on it. 

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Struan, I dont consider myself a moron, and though we may have very different opinions, that is why there are eighty posts and not four - because views differ, resorting to calling people morons isn't exactly on.

The British flag in Scottish football is synonymous with Rangers. Fact. Deck the stadiums in them, but all you are doing is unnecessarily associating ICT with Rangers.

I am British, I write 'I am British' twice a year at least, but we are talking about the context of Scottish football! and if you bring a union flag to an ICT game, you cannot, unless you know nothing of basic society, football, or history, say that you are simply colour matching.

It's got nothing to do with rangers! it's an Inverness flag with a background of the place Inverness are from! can't get my head around why you hate the flag of the place you live in.

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The saddest thing is that this thread has got feck all to do with football and probably deflects from the more important issue as to what went feckin wrong yesterday.

The voice of sanity speaks! IHE has hit the nail squarely on the head. This is the ICT thread within the "Football and other sport" section of this site.

 

We do ask posters not to back-seat moderate. If you feel strongly that this is in the wrong place then report the thread to the moderating team and they will discuss and make a decision. Alternatively, just ignore it !  For my own part, in terms of site moderation, this seems to be a debate about an incident that happened at an ICT game and although it inevitably draws comments or comparisons to subjects that are not ICT related, the original post and subsequent discussion is indeed ICT related and valid for this forum. 

 


 

As for my own opinion on the whole thing, I kinda echo what is said in a few posts beforehand. The Union Flag is the flag of the UK. Scotland is still a part of the UK (for now of forever - and that is a whole other debate), and the saltire forms one of the component parts of the flag, and it is therefore valid, but perhaps not appropriate to display it at an ICT game. It is valid because it is the flag of the UK which mirrors our own team colours, and we have a squad that encompasses all four corners of the union (or did when Tudur-Jones was in the squad), but perhaps it is inappropriate because of the negative connotations that have been brought to this flag, and also to the Irish tricolour and Ulster flags by bigotry, especially in football, and especially in Scotland.

 

Personally, I would not display it at an ICT game, but that does not give me the right to deny someone else doing that although I would act if the display of such a flag was accompanied by bigotry/sectarianism.

 

However, it does not sound like the flag owner was behaving inappropriately? so to compare this person with someone else who may have displayed a Union flag and behaved badly in the past is comparing apples and oranges (the fruit not the order). Was there the same kerfuffle over the display of the confederate flag at ICT in years past? This is a flag that also matched ICT colours and which was valid in its time, and in its place -  The naval battle flag of Tenessee and a symbol of the confederate south in the US Civil War - but it took on deeply racist tones even as far back as the civil war when the north fought to abolish slavery and the south sought to keep it, and was then picked up in the 1950s as a symbol against civil rights, and by extension, became a defacto symbol of the KKK and other racist organisations. The very same debate rages in the US today - is it racist? or is it 'Southern Pride'? The flag in question was displayed at ICT games for quite some time, and it was always done because it was ICT colours. My memory is fuzzy, but I dont think there was any big hoo-ha about it, but the owner 'retired' it when he became aware of the connotations of it other than it being on top of the car in Dukes of Hazzard! You could also make similar arguments about the swastika before it was hijacked by the nazis as a symbol ...... perfectly valid in Hinduism for example, and still is .... to the point where banning the symbol across the EU was dropped from legislation on racism in 2007.    

 

Personally, I am not in favour of any national flag, or controversial symbolism being used in the club game. Fly the component parts of the Union flag at international games for the relevant country and save the Union flag for sporting events where we compete as the UK (eg Olympics) or other more serious matters like the High Court or atop government buildings and as a mark of respect we show to fallen service men and women who might have come from any part of the union.

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Scotty, whilst in no way challenging the final decision of the moderators as to what goes where, I would suggest that individual posters should be entitled to express in open forum the point of view that a thread has been started in the wrong place. This is especially the case if, by the raising of the issue, those who might not have realised one are invited to consider the possibility of an ulterior motive within the thread in question.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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