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union jack at Perth game


Joe DiMaggio

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The Union Jack is synonymous with more than one expressions of national pride, you cant point to an old lady cheering on a royal precession with a flag and claim her motives are the same as a 20 stone skinhead marching down Luton high street with EDL on his knuckles.

Within the context of Scottish Football, what the flag symbolises has been well established, it is used to provoke hate and is a symbol for far right bigotry.

I know that ignorance is bliss in the far north and I'm willing to accept naivety from the younger lot on here but to plead the case of flying a Union Jack within a Scottish Football ground as merely 'colour-matching' as Kirishima says, is laughable. As is the showing support for all of the British players in the side, how do we know that any of them are patriotic in the slightest? I've lived in England for years now and there's 50/50 split in people who hate this country and those who don't, much like there is in Scotland.

What I worry about are the people who are aware of the flags connotations (ie. almost everyone) who can't find the strength within themselves to be honest and say that - "Yes, I do know what this flag represents within the context of Scottish Football and yes I want to fly it at a football game regardless of who gets upset"... instead of sniveling excuses and smirking, grow a spine and stand by your convictions.

You cant refute that the Union Jack carries a different meaning depending on where it is flown or who it is carried by. If the bearer was simply showing support for their country and nobody within that country has the right to be offended by it, then why wouldn't they carry the flag with them everywhere they go, rather than just to football matches?

Surely they're always in this country and thus should always want to show their support for it? Flag to Tescos, flag to the pub, flag to work, walking the dog, dropping the kids off at school, flags hanging out of the car and house windows etc etc

If that sounds ridiculous to you, then you agree with me in saying the Union Jack makes a more significant and well defined statement within a Scottish Football ground.

Whether people should turn football matches into political rallies is another matter, I'm not even against the Union Jacks, I'd just like to see people on here be honest about why they want a particular flag on show rather than hiding behind the teams strip colour.

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The Union Jack is synonymous with more than one expressions of national pride, you cant point to an old lady cheering on a royal precession with a flag and claim her motives are the same as a 20 stone skinhead marching down Luton high street with EDL on his knuckles.

Within the context of Scottish Football, what the flag symbolises has been well established, it is used to provoke hate and is a symbol for far right bigotry.

I know that ignorance is bliss in the far north and I'm willing to accept naivety from the younger lot on here but to plead the case of flying a Union Jack within a Scottish Football ground as merely 'colour-matching' as Kirishima says, is laughable. As is the showing support for all of the British players in the side, how do we know that any of them are patriotic in the slightest? I've lived in England for years now and there's 50/50 split in people who hate this country and those who don't, much like there is in Scotland.

What I worry about are the people who are aware of the flags connotations (ie. almost everyone) who can't find the strength within themselves to be honest and say that - "Yes, I do know what this flag represents within the context of Scottish Football and yes I want to fly it at a football game regardless of who gets upset"... instead of sniveling excuses and smirking, grow a spine and stand by your convictions.

You cant refute that the Union Jack carries a different meaning depending on where it is flown or who it is carried by. If the bearer was simply showing support for their country and nobody within that country has the right to be offended by it, then why wouldn't they carry the flag with them everywhere they go, rather than just to football matches?

Surely they're always in this country and thus should always want to show their support for it? Flag to Tescos, flag to the pub, flag to work, walking the dog, dropping the kids off at school, flags hanging out of the car and house windows etc etc

If that sounds ridiculous to you, then you agree with me in saying the Union Jack makes a more significant and well defined statement within a Scottish Football ground.

Whether people should turn football matches into political rallies is another matter, I'm not even against the Union Jacks, I'd just like to see people on here be honest about why they want a particular flag on show rather than hiding behind the teams strip colour.

Good points Clacher, plenty on here hiding behind the team colour idea, when the flag does not match the club colours.

I agree if people want to act like small time sevco fans, they should at least be honest about it. The OP's main point was about sectarian singing. Again, if any of those who sing these songs want to justify that, be open about it.

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You can ask for it, but it won't be forthcoming. As many have said, flags don't have a place. I wouldn't wave a Scotland flag at anything other than a Scotland game, and even then I wouldn't be sure I would. We've had all sorts off wild protestations, that not wanting to be associated with Rangers means we disrespect soldiers, ally with extremists (still digesting that particular nugget) and hate our nationality!! Which begs the question, why are some, repeat some, ICT fans intent on turning a topic on "We are not Rangers and don't want to be seen to have anything to do with their ideas" into accusations of bigotry, nationalism, hatred, treason, and worse, sectarianism?

Never in a million years would I have thought trying to distance the club from Rangers would be seen as a bad idea.

Edited by Kirishima
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OK guys, you have had your fun.

 

Topic has been renamed and moved to this forum as it is spiralling out of control and has been discussed by Mods. Continued point scoring will result in topic being closed.

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Well I would never have thought of moving it from the main page - what do you think Charles ?!!

I would simply like to commend the moderators twice over.... for moving the thread to the forum in which the perpetrator, if he desperately felt he had to, should have started it in the first place - and for changing the title to its now inoffensive one.

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Dont see many Irish tri-colours in support of our Irish lads at TCS , just saying like .

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread two lads turned up with Irish tri-colours and Ireland tops to support Hayes, Foran and Rooney and there wasn't anywhere near this level of fuss.

 

Just saying like.

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Dont see many Irish tri-colours in support of our Irish lads at TCS , just saying like .

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread two lads turned up with Irish tri-colours and Ireland tops to support Hayes, Foran and Rooney and there wasn't anywhere near this level of fuss.

 

Just saying like.

 

 

Were they spouting anti Protestant p1sh like the heroes with the Union flag were about Catholics etc . ?

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> Within the context of Scottish Football, what the flag symbolises has been well established, it is used to provoke hate and is a symbol for far right bigotry.

 

Not to me it's not.  Especially when it's marked Inverness.

> Surely they're always in this country and thus should always want to show their support for it? Flag to Tescos, flag to the pub, flag to work, walking the dog, dropping the kids off at school, flags hanging out of the car and house windows etc etc

 

The flag-bearer wears it on his shirt when he puts on his soldier's uniform.  That's enough for me.

> I'd just like to see people on here be honest about why they want a particular flag on show rather than hiding behind the teams strip colour.

 

Honestly? Because it's being flown by a British soldier who has every right to be proud of doing so.

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I think this summarises this intent of this thread quite well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01hlq7m

As has been said, there is more chat on this topic than about the team and performance, and despite some people becrying it and asking for it to be closed, the easiest thing to do (if it bothers you so much) is either a) stop reading the new posts on it or b) report to the moderators why you think it should be locked / removed.

Hint - (a) is the easier and frankly more mature response.

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Honestly? Because it's being flown by a British soldier who has every right to be proud of doing so.

Whats somebodies job got to do with how appropriate or not taking a Union Jack into a football ground is?

 

 

I could not agree more with that Clacher.

 

I'm going to keep my opinions on the armed forces, war campaigns and British identity to myself as, to me, a football forum is not the place to do it. The negative association from a purely Scottish football perspective regarding the Union Jack is well known and accepted though. Having said that, we live in a democracy and there is no reason why it can't or shouldn't be taken to a game. Personally, I'd prefer that ICT were not linked in any way whatsoever to any element associated with Rangers. For me, there is nothing at all positive which can come from that link.

 

However, I have never understood why choosing to make your career in the armed forces appears, to many, to elevate those who make that choice above anyone else and given a status which is certainly not afforded to many others in careers which can provide just as many intense challenges. To be clear, I am not dismissing the job the forces personnel undertake. It is more the, perhaps media driven, notion that by pursuing a forces career someone automatically becomes a 'hero'. 

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This will be my last word on a subject that's ran it's course for me but...

 

...the idea that the flag of our country is a Rangers flag fits in with DalneighCaley's assertion that we have our wee team in ICT but really, in Scottish football, we all actually support a big team of, mainly, Rangers or Celtic.  That says more about people that say it than it does me.  I find the idea that an Inverness supporter has to prove he's not really a Rangers supporter ridiculous.  Tell me, who's your big team?  Or shall I assume Celtic if you are against the UJ the same way others have about Rangers?  Stupid idea.

 

I don't see soldiers as heroes (necessarily, at least).  Now that I'm of a certain age and teaching people who could easily be in the Forces, I see them, not as brave warriors or violent thugs, but simply as older boys and young men being sent out by uncaring governments to be shot, maimed and killed for a country that does so little to help them.  That's why I support them (and that doesn't say anything about not caring about other professions or supporting overseas wars).

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It's a shame that that was your last post as it raised a few interesting points. Not least with your incredibly simple minded assumption that because I acknowledge that Scotland, and west central in particular, has a deep rooted historical sectarian problem of which one side have utilised the Union Jack as their badge that I must, by deafult, have a 'big team'. The debate over their legitimacy for doing so is another debate altogether but for the record, and to remove all assumptions you've made (and as an educator I'm sure you are very aware of what it means to assume...?) I have no 'big team' and I never have had any 'big team'. In fact, just to make it very clear, I dislike what the Old Firm stand for to the extent I do not visit Ibrox or Parkhead as a spectator even for ICT games and haven't done for a good few years. They may not be the direct cause of the deep social problems in Scotland but they've both become very successful off of reaping the benefits of it, to the detriment of every other side and the sport of football overall in this country.

 

I really do not want to discuss the armed forces on a football forum but I suggest your naivety is displayed by your choice of words above. They are not 'sent out by uncaring governments to be shot, maimed and killed for a country that does so little to help them'. They have made an informed choice based on balancing the element of risk against recompense (not necessarily financial but also opportunity, career, lifestyle, etc.) offered and decided it is worthwhile to be there. That does not detract from the necessity or the relevance of their role or make any support of them undeserving but it is their choice to put themselves there.

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I can echo that last part of your post starchief but you did bring up the flag bearers job in his defense, which is symptomatic of a wider problem that could come back to bite us later down the line.

The military are almost in a position now in the UK where they cannot be questioned on anything, it has been entirely orchestrated by the media.

The dimmest and idlest in any society will always need a cause or group to identify with, I'm all for it as long as the cause is something harmless like following a football team or religion. I worry for the long term future of the UK though, when the media has decided to spoon feed the armed forces to the masses for their dose of false belonging.

Even more worrying is the apparently massive number of people willing to swallow the hero crap wholesale.

Of all the arms of the government they're the ones who should never be exempt from criticism under any circumstance, certainly since the days of conscription. We have a professional army, nobody is there because they couldn't do anything else or were forced into it, its far from a selfless sacrifice.

On this thread we've seen people exempting the flag bearer from questioning due to their job, most people posting have probably never even met the guy before, he might be a total d*ck for all you know. Believe it or not, there's people in the military that don't always deserve your support, much like in any walk of life.

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