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Contract Situation


Sneckboy

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Another 2 quality players leaving for nothing. This has been our Achilles heal. The lackadaisical attitude towards securing our best players is criminal. Its probably cost the club literally millions of pounds over the years. Ryan Christie being the most egregious example. 

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8 hours ago, AlexJones said:

Another 2 quality players leaving for nothing. This has been our Achilles heal. The lackadaisical attitude towards securing our best players is criminal. Its probably cost the club literally millions of pounds over the years. Ryan Christie being the most egregious example. 

They are far from our best players. Injury prone and bit part player.

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Dundee will not be offering Williams £3,000 per week :laugh:

Three or four seasons back Dundee's average wage (yes I know) was apparently lower than ours:

http://nareystoepoker.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/comparing-scottish-clubs-wages.html?_sm_au_=iVV1rj2DWwjHtZFq

However this was the season that Dundee somewhat unexpectedly found themselves in the SPL at the expense of Rangers IIRC so perhaps not a great proxy. Also, taking average wages might not be a great indicator compared to overall wage budget spent on players.

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On 25/02/2016 at 6:28 PM, RiG said:

 

Disappointed that they are going?  Yes, but but inevitable I fear.

Devastated that they are going?  No,  Vincent will always have a place in our hearts for his winner at Hampden. But he has hardly played since through injury.

Williams I think is a 'nearly man'.  Decent player but never quite made a position 'his own' so that it became impossible for Yogi to leave him on the bench.

Edit  Don't know why Rig's blank quote appeared. I didn't intend to quote anybody!

Edited by Caley Mad In Berks
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Dunno about £3k/week, but I have heard from good sources that Dundee are paying way more than we can offer, thanks to their American backers.  I'd reckon they now have the fifth biggest budget in the division, behind Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee United.

If they're offering James 'made of glass' Vincent a three year deal, they clearly have more money than sense.

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My objection is that I don't see any foresight from the club. We all knew at the beginning of the season that we only had 1 or 2 signed for next year. So surely, you get in first and say to the guys you want: Here's the offer, let's start negotiating. Yes, some might turn you down because they want to move on, but at least everybody knows where they stand and the Jan window can be used as the start of planning for the next season. Polworth, Raven and Fon Williams all had to go to the press to get some action, and Raven is still getting the cold shoulder...obviously at the back of that long line of talented right backs that we have! Meanwhile, Dundee nip in and take the negotiating high ground with Williams and Vincent: We might not have been able to compete, but we had the opportunity to try to tie them down before Dundee were in the frame. It all seems a bit disorganised and last minute. Of course financial security is paramount, but there would be nothing more certain to drive austerity in he future than relegation - likely a near miss this season, but much more likely with wholesale changes next year. Refresh, yes, complete overhaul: No thanks.

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.....if not good enough, why was Williams made an offer after Dundee made their approach? Not good enough then, not good enough now, surely. Doesn't sound like a conscious decision to offload to me.

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Whatever Dundee are paying, they can afford to pay more due to higher average gates than us. There crowds are a good 1 to 2 thousand more than us so getting more fand through the door is vital but Inverness does not seem to want to do this. If their American backers are also providing money........

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34 minutes ago, tm4tj said:

Maybe they were not seen as good enough. Why make offers if we don't really need them. Players come, players go. New season same ****. It's nothing new.

It's not just related to these guys though. I genuinely believe that if we had made Shinnie a (damn good) offer in the summer of 2014 he would have signed it. That's not to say that we would have retained him but at least we would have gotten some cash for the guy had he moved on. Instead we didn't try and offer him a contract until the midway point of the season by which point his head was already being turned by what else was out there.

Bottom line, if you want to try and keep your players and avoid other clubs coming in and nicking them for buttons try and start your contract talks a little bit earlier. Something ICT seldom seem to do.

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26 minutes ago, RiG said:

It's not just related to these guys though. I genuinely believe that if we had made Shinnie a (damn good) offer in the summer of 2014 he would have signed it. That's not to say that we would have retained him but at least we would have gotten some cash for the guy had he moved on. Instead we didn't try and offer him a contract until the midway point of the season by which point his head was already being turned by what else was out there.

Bottom line, if you want to try and keep your players and avoid other clubs coming in and nicking them for buttons try and start your contract talks a little bit earlier. Something ICT seldom seem to do.

Exactly, RiG.

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We can start our contract offers as early as you want, but if we can't offer enough they will go elsewhere. It's just a job. Some folk think it's all down to the club, there's a lot more to it than that, but it's an easy option to blame. Feeder club I'm afraid, good players like Shinnie will always be hunted by bigger payers. Wat you genuinely believe might have been true, but how do we know. We will never know now.

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11 hours ago, RiG said:

It's not just related to these guys though. I genuinely believe that if we had made Shinnie a (damn good) offer in the summer of 2014 he would have signed it. That's not to say that we would have retained him but at least we would have gotten some cash for the guy had he moved on. Instead we didn't try and offer him a contract until the midway point of the season by which point his head was already being turned by what else was out there.

Bottom line, if you want to try and keep your players and avoid other clubs coming in and nicking them for buttons try and start your contract talks a little bit earlier. Something ICT seldom seem to do.

Perhaps the club offered as much as they could afford to Shinnie or any other player and still balance the books. The football club is a business and has to be run like such. If the average salary is £X and we offered Shinnie £4X then that means we would have had to either sacrifice 3 players or sign 6 players on £0.5X just to break even. So you end up with a threadbare squad relying on the youngsters who aren't ready or good enough or a team with 1 or 2 top players and the rest just not near the required level.

11 hours ago, PerfICT said:

.....if not good enough, why was Williams made an offer after Dundee made their approach? Not good enough then, not good enough now, surely. Doesn't sound like a conscious decision to offload to me.

Where is the actual facts in that statement, its been media conjecture - has the player ever come out and officially said through a reputable source this was the case.

Everyone on here constantly blames the club, the players have input into this and can decide who to sign for, how much and when. Consider they have informal chats with the manager and club, if they indicate a desire to leave then why waste time, money and effort on long discussions otherwise, having solicitors involved etc when its unlikely they will change their mind. Too many on here think real world football is like football manager.

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Finances have a major influence, agents have a major influence, transfer "rewards" have a major influence. Most of the players that we have "lost" have tended to be either players who could play at a higher level or fringe players. To me the players that we need to hold on to are the Warrens, Drapers and Polworths - and we do tend to do that. To me the "problem" has to be in our "scouting" system which does not appear as effective as in the past. I have never liked loaners but that is the way of the world. I would be looking at a definite link with an English club where we try out the promising youngsters of a higher potential and look at strengthening the rest of the squad with lower league players (Scotland and England), giving them short, trial contracts in the hope that we unearth a player or at least strengthen the squad. Unfortunately we do not appear either to promote or encourage some of our Development squad. And I don't see anything wrong with. "Sugar Daddy" and I am surprised, given the potential of the team in recent seasons, that one has not come on board, especially when the Highlands, tourism and good old fashioned emotive marketing could be very profitable.

 

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I agree.  We simply don't know all the detail behind the scenes and so it is just conjecture about who should be offered what and when, although it surely must be correct to aim to get key players signed up sooner rather than later.  We also know that finances are a major factor in our ability to recruit new players to the club.

We have to accept that many good players will choose to leave the club in order to further their careers whilst some who chose to stay reach a stage where they can no longer get into the side.  That's life. Since the club was formed and through a succession of managers and chairmen, the club, has been successful in retaining a lot of the better players and replacing those players who do leave with players who are or who develop into better players.  This is why the club has moved up through the leagues over the years and managed to reach 3rd place last year as well as lifting the Scottish Cup.  But now, for the first time, I feel we are really struggling to retain players and the new players coming in show little prospect of being as good as those they are replacing.  We urgently need to get some contacts signed and find some quality from somewhere else.

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11 minutes ago, caleyboy said:

Unfortunately uou need to be a magician to get the quality we would like for our limited budget

 

Totally disagree. Money doesn't buy success as we already know. 

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On 22/03/2016 at 5:04 PM, ICTRoughi said:
9 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

Perhaps the club offered as much as they could afford to Shinnie or any other player and still balance the books. The football club is a business and has to be run like such. If the average salary is £X and we offered Shinnie £4X then that means we would have had to either sacrifice 3 players or sign 6 players on £0.5X just to break even. So you end up with a threadbare squad relying on the youngsters who aren't ready or good enough or a team with 1 or 2 top players and the rest just not near the required level.

Where is the actual facts in that statement, its been media conjecture - has the player ever come out and officially said through a reputable source this was the case.

Everyone on here constantly blames the club, the players have input into this and can decide who to sign for, how much and when. Consider they have informal chats with the manager and club, if they indicate a desire to leave then why waste time, money and effort on long discussions otherwise, having solicitors involved etc when its unlikely they will change their mind. Too many on here think real world football is like football manager.

The team needs a bit of freshening up, so wouldn't be all that sad if more players from the Butcher era vacate our club. 

...this is what JH said regarding Danny Williams in the wake of the Dundee interest:

"For Danny Williams to stay here, he has to show us it's not all money motivated," he said. "If it is the case that he wants to be here then it gives us a wee half nudge to try and keep him".

That can be read two ways (at least):

1. Danny's chasing the cash and we're not really too bothered about him leaving.

2. We'd quite like to keep Danny, but we've been gazumped by a better offer and there's need to be another incentive for him to stay here, in which case we'd like to keep him, but we're probably not going to succeed.

If interpretation 1 is correct, I have no problem with it - this is by mutual consent effectively - everybody knows the score and JH has long planned for him not being here next year and Danny is off to earn a higher salary. Fair enough.

But, the second part of the statement indicates that any offer from ICT would only happen now, if Danny were to effectively say that he'd prefer to stay here on a lower wage. That is reactive and too late IMO.

Surely, at the start of any season, the manager and the club have the foresight to know who is approaching the ned of their contract and who should be retained, if the player wants to. You then approach those players before January and see how the land lies. some will bite your hand off (3 players have been in the press saying as much), some will say no and some will be willing to negotiate. Armed with that, you can offer guys who both parties want to stay contracts before other clubs can poach them, you can plan for replacements of those who are going to leave and you can negotiate with the ones who are up for negotation - again, some of these will be lost because the ask is too high. That way, by January the manager and the club should be fairly clear who is with us for the next year or 3, who needs replaced and what the remaining budget is. The evidence that this hasn't happened this year is that no contract extensions were announced before January, despite several players indicating that they'd want to stay. Two of those (Liam Polworth and Fon Williams) have since been offered a contract, so presumably was on JH's shopping list, but might well be in the sights of other clubs.

Of course we are a selling club - and we will also inevitably lose some guys on a free because they're too expensive fro us to hold on to. If the club and manager are doing everything in their power to pro-actively retain players, then great! My concern is that this year they have been very unsuccessful to date in keeping a solid core to the team and JH's ability to bring adequate replacements in so far has been far from outstanding. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong!

 

Edited by PerfICT
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Understand that we are a selling club, and don't really know or fully understand the ins and outs (no pun intended) of it all, but surely tieing players up with longer term contracts means that when others come a-fishing, we actually get decent value for them and not just have them walk out the door for no reward.....

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1 hour ago, ictfcsince94 said:

Understand that we are a selling club, and don't really know or fully understand the ins and outs (no pun intended) of it all, but surely tieing players up with longer term contracts means that when others come a-fishing, we actually get decent value for them and not just have them walk out the door for no reward.....

Richie Foran and Aaron Dorran both signed up for long term then both sustained long term injuries . Result higher wage bill as they get paid whether playing or not and we need other players to cover who also are unlikely to be of the same quality.

so long term contracts can also back fire it certainly doesn't guarantee success 

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2 hours ago, rocky1 said:

Richie Foran and Aaron Dorran both signed up for long term then both sustained long term injuries . Result higher wage bill as they get paid whether playing or not and we need other players to cover who also are unlikely to be of the same quality.

so long term contracts can also back fire it certainly doesn't guarantee success 

Interestingly, they are (or at least were until Draper and Warren's new deals) our two highest paid players...

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