Should Hughes be SACKED?

[12th Man]

Don't get upset Mahonio, I hope you can make it to a football match before the season ends.

[+Tree]

It is clear that there are two distinct camps forming on this subject, however there needs to be a realisation by many that a) everyone is entitled to a different opinion and without this being the case a forum such as this becomes nothing more that a love in and b) there is a significant issue facing the club in that many (and not just a small few) appear to be resigned to next season being a disaster and are not intending renewing season tickets.

 

Whilst it may well be a justifiable statement to say, as a few have, that fans should support their team irrespective of results and performances this is not going to influence the many I have spoken to who have taken the decision to not renew next year. Home crowds are continuing to appear to fall and though this started prior to Yohi arriving our performances at home are not helping.

 

There are a number of factors which support either opinion however it may be of interest for people to know that Richie was on the interview panel and Yogi (at the time) was the players preference also.

 

Will removing Yogi solve this. Again possibly not, however it has to be justifiable (given the number of thrashings and tactical issues) for people to ask the question.

[gordieict]

I get that people have different opinions, what I don't get is why people have to insult people regardless of that opinion.

[RiG]

[Big G]

Some people on here as seeing this as black and white. Disloyal v Happy Clappers. I am very worried about the way the team has performed under Hughes and some of the statements he has made and I am not convinced he is the man for OUR club, but I have two season tickets, sponser a player and hold a small number of shares. I don't expect to win every week but I do hope for a level of effort and manager who is willing to admit mistakes and see what is best for the team and club and supporters. Under Hughes I feel the hope draining from me. Two wins over C'unty, a win at Aberdeen and a semi- final roller coaster are the only plus points since mid December and the negatives are too many to list. Do I want Yogi to succeed? He'll yes. He succeeds our club succeeds. Do I think he will? Sorry but no. Nothing inspires me with hope.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Big G

[davie]

I really hope that this "disloyal v happy clappers" stuff doesn't translate into a real schism in our support. I personally don't think it does. John Hughes is manager because he presented the board with the best case for filling the vacancy, ahead of all the other applicants. He didn't get the position by default. He presented the board with a vision that is entirely coherent with their aims, i.e. that of a successful team playing passing football that entertains people and encourages them to fill seats in the stadium. That's not what is happening right now as the team adapts to changes that the manager has brought about, and it's unfortunately to be expected. Since coming in, Hughes has had very few weeks where two (or three) games have not been the norm, so there's little time for coaching in there. there have been injuries and accumulated fatigue. It takes time, and that's what he should get. He also doesn't have a real budget for increasing the playing staff - because of the lack of a league sponsor etc, there's not a massive amount of money around and that's just fact. The problem will compound if people decide that, in the face of one of our most successful seasons (by any measure) they will not renew season tickets. Another 300 or so would be a more constructive and positive direction to head in, but I'm not going to tell others what to do or what to buy, just not to base their support on a hasty reaction. All I would ask is that they look at all aspects of what the club is, how it operates and what it means to them and I'm sure that would transcend what I sincerely hope (and believe) is a temporary setback in results. Judge John Hughes next October, but until then please get behind him and the team.

[shawn_sheep]

Being an occasional attendee at matches nowadays I, along with new supporters, are one of the biggest target audiences for the club. 5/6-0 defeats, 0-0 draws and the form since December won't entice 'fairweather' fans to the club. John Hughes was the wrong man for the club both in terms of managerial experience & ICTs slick playing style and the sooner the board realise the better. The stats 'pre/post Hughes' are astounding and if Hughes says he is not making wholesale changes in the summer then surely the same will continue?

 

One final note - what has the impact on Billy McKays asking price been since Hughes took over? Astute clubs will see he is still a good player but his transfer value must have halved?

[Laurence]

Speaking as a supporter  who has seen many managers come and go for a few various clubs I have followed over many decades  my perception is that changing the manager should be a last resort.  As a young man I supported Bury when they were relegated from what is now the Championship in England. The board sacked the manager Les Shannon. The spectator's , Fans,  supporters , whatever you want to call them, where incensed and congregated outside the ground and made such a racket the board reinstated Les. The following season Bury lost the first 3 games of the season. The board once again wanted to sack Shannon, the fans said "no" , Bury went on to get  promoted.   I say this because sometimes a manager just needs time. It was great to see the fans get involved and tell the board what they felt. I did wonder how long it would be before Hughes went at the time of his appointment, I also wondered if he would last longer than the Man U manager. Well he did.  I reluctantly feel unless they are prepared to gamble on Richie Foran, they should stick with Hughes. Although I would not riot outside the gates if he got the boot.

[starchief]

I can see what you are saying davie but the Board also thought Brewster was the man for the job.  Even when it was blindlingly obvious he wasn't, rather than sack him, they gave him extra cash to spend.  Very noble but ultimately wrong.

 

I can see why people are saying give him time (and, to be honest, most naysayers are probably also in that camp, although not me) but I can see what is happening now is what always happens with Hughes' teams.  An inability to halt a losing streak, a lack of goals, a play around at the back, so the more talented midfield don't get a look in, then a panic ball loaded up top.  This was even the case with a Hibs team that had Derek Riordan, Liam Miller, Benjelloun and Rankin.  Yes, I know he did fine initially but once the losses start, he can't halt it.

 

I'm sure the Board won't sack him but I think they'll wish they had never taken him on come the end of his reign.  Maybe you think differently but it's based on blind hope not the history of Yogi at other clubs.  Once he's on a losing streak, he doesn't have the means to halt it.

[Ten4]

Still 3 games to go , we certainly should still be capable of winning them all, and I`d rather not settle for anything else.

If we do lose them all,  I probably will start changing my mind about Hughes.

[Laurence]

Following the Ryan Giggs  example

 

Why not give Foran 3 matches?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

It is the performances and the level of entertainment that is most important in the next three games rather than the scores or the points. Unfortunately I suspect that there are quite a few season tickets depending on it. And a losing streak will only least fer three more games - but talk about sticking with what we have got fer next season is utter garbage. If that is the case as I alluded to before it must be finances and the Board.

[AJS]

Still at the Winchester...its quiet 

[Scarlet Pimple]

Well, Davie, for what it is worth, your post is the constructive and positively-orientated one that I have hoped for from the naysayers for a long time. It comes across as thoughtful and insightful  and if I were the manager it would be sending a ray of hope to me  that my emotional body was not going to be destroyed every week by constant, brutally negative criticism.

 

If J Hughes gets down because of this --and believe me he needs to be strong to weather this type of unrelenting attack.-- it is no wonder he may not be able to lift up and continue to inspire the players because they can read as well as we can.

 

It's like kicking someone when he or she is down. What I am left wondering is whether or not some of the more rabidly negative whiners on here would ever help a lame dog over a style?

 

And the bizarre suggestion that allowing Richie Foran to handle the next three games is not worthy of a reply because obviously it must have been made with  tongue in cheek.

[starchief]

If J Hughes gets down because of this --and believe me he needs to be strong to weather this type of unrelenting attack.-- it is no wonder he may not be able to lift up and continue to inspire the players because they can read as well as we can.

Sheez, now it's the fans fault!?!

 

Actually, it's not unrelenting.  When Hughes changed his style from total football (as in total guff) to exciting wing play against Ross County, there wasn't criticism, which implies that everyone wants him to do well but the signs aren't good.

 

There's none so blind as those who will not see.

[Macduffer]

If, as a manager, you are lucky to lose a game by only 6 goals - as happened in our last match - you have to expect criticism and questions asked.  To paraphrase Yogi, there is no room for 'shrinking violets' in football management.  It's a results-based business and every manager knows that. All the talk, all the promises, all the cliches, don't matter a bean compared to the results column on the next day's back pages.

[Guest Mahonio]

Does anyone think John himself is fearing for his job after recent results? Of course he is because as Macduffer correctly stated, football management is results based and just now results aren't coming.

Even Mr Cameron knows that John's position is results based and may be worried to.

I am not going to criticise John for wanting to play passing football because it is nice to watch, however, I would rather play route one if it meant getting results.

Nor am I going to criticise Kenny for appointing him, my comment in a previous post was mainly to point out that even he can get appointments wrong but same goes to Glazer family at Man U.

I am very interested to see who he signs in Transfer Window if he is given chance to, he could quite easily find gems from lower English leagues, if he does then I will be impressed but in all honesty, he doesn't need many new players in.

[+DoofersDad]

I welcome Davie's post as a constructive contribution to the debate.  I share the concern about a schism in the support but can we please not question people's loyalty.It seems to me that there are probably 3 broad camps all of whom have the best interests of the club at heart.  At one extreme you have those who want Hughes to go now because they are convinced he was the wrong appointment from the word go, whilst at the other extreme there are those who feel it is too early to even express any concerns about his performance to date.  In the middle are those who feel it is too early to consider sacking him but who are concerned about what they are seeing.  That is 3 broad views but the reality is it is a continuum of viewpoints between the two extremes.

 

I think Davie's contribution is important because it actually helps to clarify why so many of us are concerned.  I think we all share the vision of "a successful team playing passing football that entertains people and encourages them to fill seats in the stadium".  But hang on a bit - we were 2nd in the league when Hughes took over.  Weren't we a successful team playing passing football that entertained people?  Of course, the vision must surely be to be more successful and play more entertaining football, perhaps by passing more and I think we all accept that some change is involved.  But the issue here is not the vision per se, it is the practical limit of the vision and the strategy of achieving that.

 

No doubt Hughes will learn to regret the Barcelona comments if he hasn't already done so.  Of course we would love ICT to play like Barca but we all know it is not going to happen.  There has to be some realism here.  It is sobering to reflect on last nights Champions' League semi final between Bayern Munich and Real Madrid.  Following his success at Barcelona Pep Guardiola is trying to instill the same style at Bayern and is having some success because they have world class players.  However, they were humbled last night.  An extraordinary statistic is that Bayern made 656 passes to Real's 287.  For all those passes they only managed 4 shots on target.  The message is clear. 

 

There may well be scope to have the side playing more of a passing game than in the Butcher era but this is surely a thing of evolution and not revolution.  The concern many folk have is that Hughes has made radical changes for some games.  Rather than rebuilding the playing style, we should have been building on the success we already had - success which was to a large extent built around the strengths of the current squad.  Davie states "Hughes has had very few weeks where two (or three) games have not been the norm, so there's little time for coaching in there. there have been injuries and accumulated fatigue. It takes time, and that's what he should get."  But that, surely, is the very reason why he should not have been experimenting with the playing style at this time.  It does indeed take time but he has not given it any time - he's gone straight in and changed things at precisely the time when stability was needed.

 

Going back to the stated vision it is important to remember this is not just about a passing game, it is about a passing game which entertains.  A radio summariser on Sunday reported that the one time Inverness broke out of defence a passing movement ended with Draper passing the ball back to the keeper.  That is not what I call entertainment and it will not fill empty seats in the stadium. I have no problem with the vision as Davie describes it, but the high flying status of the club when Hughes took over combined with the difficulties he describes called for a softly softly approach to change with tweaks here and there to build on what we already had.

 

I also agree with Davie that things will be more difficult if a significant number of fans decide they won't buy season tickets next year.  That is, of course, another reason for a softly softly approach to change  Some fans will continue to support the team come what may, but we all know that many who come to watch will only come if the team is playing well and winning - that's life.

 

Davie mentions that Hughes doesn't have a budget for increasing the playing staff, but that has no bearing on the slump in performance this season.  We still have same players - it is the manager that is different.  Indeed, because we have the same players and they are contracted for next season as well is a further reason for a softly softly approach to change - we will not have a squad hand picked by Hughes to suit his way ideal way of playing.  By all means give the guy some time and I would support Davie's call for fans to get behind him and the team, but let's not pretend there is nothing to be concerned about.

 

 

[bigman]

my only complaint is that he should have waited for the summer before he introduced his ideas to the team. He has managed to turn a reasonable team into a team which doubts its own ability. As I have said before the back 4 play the ball across the back then pass it back to the goalkeeper who can only hoof it forward. I would rather a team play football in the oppositions half. 

Time will tell, I can only hope he gets it right by next season. He had two great performances against county so it is there.

[Kingsmills]

Talking about waiting until the summer, maybe, with the benefit of hindsight, we should have delayed the appointment of a new manager until the summer. I doubt our record post Butcher would have been any worse and might have been a good deal better with the coaching staff simply maintaining the status quo.

[absent friend]

Of course it is all Hughes fault!

Before he came, we were second in the league, playing wonderful football, attracting enormous crowds through the gate every home game!

Before he came Aberdeen, Motherwell and Dundee United were all on the march being very successful, winning all their games.

Before he came we had so many injured players Butcher had a job getting the subs bench filled!

Before he came the neggie posters on here were all very positive, so he is at fault!

Now, a wee thought for us all .... I wonder what happened to all the neggie Fergie attackers when he turned Man U round?

They must be sooooo happy that Davie came along so that their rusty keyboards could, once again, spit out venom, so much so that the players bought into it and stopped playing for him.

I wonder after this 'crap' season, top six, cup final, 120 minutes, 10 men, eventually beaten on penalties, with our tired players showing they had to play an extra game that week - no John, it all counts for nothing when that keyboard gets into top gear!

[starchief]

Would we be in the Top Six on the form we have had since Hughes took over? No. In fact, its been a downward spiral. So, I don't see how you can give the credit to Hughes? Well done on winning the semifinal, bad luck on the final. I don't blame him. It happens.

Now, about those massive losses, the draw with Stranraer, the truly appalling home record, the relegation form, the poor tactics, the loss of goals from a previously strong defence, the lack of goals from a previously strong attack...not inspiring is it? And the only changes are the manager and his tactics. Despite the denials, its true to form for the manager.

[absent friend]

I don't suppose Aberdeen drawing with Alloa and then beating them 6-5 on penalties is as bad as our draw.

But then their manager is 'best in show' now!

I wonder how many penalties Mr Hughes missed in Glasgow - oh no, it was the faultless players but he must be to blame!

I am not on here to defend Mr Hughes, no doubt the future results will dictate his future or maybe the neggies will have their day and he will be gone prior to this.

Just have a glance at Rig's footer and I feel this sums up the current hysteria on this forum.

[+bughtmaster]

Would we have been in the top six if Butcher had still been in charge ? Nobody can be certain of that !!!

Stranraer draw........... I remember a lower league club once beating the mighty Celtic....what was the name of that team again?

 

Tactics......The Bayern v Real game........some excellent passing football, some poor passing football, So near to destroying Real but so many missed chances because they did not make shooting space, only four on target with all that possession and with such impressive players in control....what a waste.

My point here is that you can control a game with passing but whist doing so you have to create the space for the finishing, they didn't' that is why they lost, that and because of defensive lapses...............sound familiar ?

These are in effect winning tactics if the balance can be attained.

John Hughes is attempting to have ICT play a form of football that emulates that, I admire him for it, it is a big and brave ask, if he succeeds and it is possible then we will have a team to be revered but he and the team have to be given time and the backing of the 'support' if he and the team are going to succeed.

 

i know as well as anyone that he has not got, or the team have not got the tactics right yet...... but the game against County showed what can be achieved with only sixty percent of the style in place so why not lay off the strong criticism 'till we see what evolves over the first half of the new season.

 

I love good football, the one / two touch style of passing of the Spanish National side that opens up and speeds through, creating chances with as many as five players up front mesmerising defences and scoring.  That is where the thrill of the game comes through. If we could get anywhere close to that it would be worth the wait and the odd hammering in the lead up to achieving that.

 

Patience is what I want and that is why I can be so anti the negative  brigade with their continuous barrage of destructive comments.

 

 I do not have overly high expectations, I have a realistic outlook, I can see both sides of the coin but when it comes down to it I feel for the faithful and will shout out for them.

[caleyboy]

Well said Bughtmaster - I agree with everything you said.

 

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