Matchday Thread Inverness CT -V- Partick Thistle

[CaleyThistle]

What was Foran's reaction C T ???

Started shaking his head before begrudgingly handing the armband to GS, didn't look best pleased.

[RiG]

What was Foran's reaction C T ???

He karate kicked Nessie in the face.

[ICTRoughi]

Today was much better and it gave us a well deserved win and give Yogi some breathing space. I personally found the first half a bit shaky especially from the back four so much so that Partick could catch us out on the counter attacks. I think a bit of tightening up at the back wouldn't go a miss. 

 

Credit to Partick Thistle, they passed the ball smoothly on the deck especially in the first half they were unlucky not to score but thankfully Dean Brill had an excellent game today. 

 

Danny Williams continued to impress me again like he did a couple weeks back vs Hibs which to the point I was quite surprised that Yogi replaced him with Nick Ross but for me personally I found that James Vincent isn't a winger. I felt that when he got the ball out wide that he would cut in the middle with it thus eliminating the width which has been missing. Greg Tansey linking up with Billy Mckay was really pleasing today and which was providing Billy some support which he has been crying out for just behind him. I wasn't so sure on Richie Foran today and I will tell you if Willie Collum was refereeing today he would have walked for his rash challenge on the Partick player. Some of his passes today were woeful today and unfortunately he hasn't been the same since his injury and same could be said for James Vincent. Another point I would like to add is that parts of today I felt that we were sitting back too deep and inviting trouble and then getting Meekings or Warren to hoof it up the field and same could be said for part of the second half too. 

 

Take nothing away, I am not being negative about today. We got three vital points and hopefully the boost to kick on for the rest of the season but there is still room for improvement and I am sure Yogi himself is aware of that. 

 

Regarding Richie coming off, He clapped to the home support in appreciation and then shouted something but seemed like banter to the dugout nothing to read into it. 

 

Regarding entering Europe via the cup. As I understand it, If Dundee United finishes 4th and reach the final then they HAVE to play Aberdeen for us to get into Europe*. Aberdeen have to beat St Johnstone because if St Johnstone get to the final then the runners up would get the place. Dundee United vs St Johnstone would be the worst case scenario. 

 

*Dundee United have to win the cup of course. 

Edited March 22, 2014 by ICTRoughi

[+DoofersDad]

Anyone notice Foran's reaction when he was taken off?

Yes.  I don't think that was in the game plan.  I thought Richie was our poorest player in an overall disappointing performance.  He picked up a justified booking for a rash challenge and just couldn't pick a pass at all.  It says a lot about Yogi's strength of character that he took him off.

 

Bush makes an excellent point in that we can't have Foran, Draper, Vincent and Tansey all playing at the same time.  In my view, Foran is the one to make way.  There are times when he is excellent (he was superb against County) but those times are becoming fewer and fewer.  He seems to have lost  a yard of pace and he's not winning balls on the back post in the way he used to.  I doubt he'll be captain next season.

[12th Man]

3 league places and one scottish cup place in europe. Iwould be happy with a gers v dons final and then try for 4th or higher. The cup final experience has added character to the players and I don't thinking playing for europe will put them off.

[WYNESS101]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26699499

Yogis interview

 

"Inverness: John Hughes asks for strong Tannadice referee"

[+bughtmaster]

Richie, well he is a battler so it is understandable if he is a bit cheesed if he gets hooked, possibly more cheesed off with himself rather than anything else for not playing up to his own high expectations.

He will not, I fear, regain his past excellence, too many injuries in the last two seasons for that to happen, too much frustration because he knows there was a time when he was that much quicker and that much more accurate than he is now but he will always do the best he can for the team,

Even cameo appearances and super sub moments may be upon him before long but whatever his future he will give a valued contributing performance for ICT whenever called upon.

 

He is a players man but can take a seat along with the management as well.

 

Great he is on board the SS Sneckie

[+DoofersDad]

I was very worried at half time.  I thought the team selection was far too defensive and I thought the team all looked very nervous.  The only two who did well were Brill in goal and Williams who seemed to be the only player who really wanted the ball and wanted to do something other than simply give it to somebody else when he had it.  I think this demonstrated how dependent we sometimes are on Doran.  Without him we seem bereft of ideas as most of what the side normally does going forward involves him.  Nobody else seemed to want to take responsibility and the ball just went sideways or back.

 

I don't know what Yogi said at half time but it seemed to work.  There was a much greater sense of purpose, much more movement off the ball and even a willingness to shoot.  Tansey's contribution to the second half in particular was excellent.  But when both Tansey and Mckay missed great opportunities I thought it just wasn't going to be our day.  When the goal finally came the sense of relief on the pitch and around the ground was tangible.

 

Williams played well and was unlucky to be subbed.  Ross replaced him in a like for like role and did well.  Christie replacing Foran added an extra spark and creativity and the balance of the side looked better.  I'd like to see Ross and Christie have more game time together.  With Doran rather than Watkins, the team we finished up with would be capable of some pretty entertaining attacking football IMHO. 

 

Whilst overall it wasn't the greatest of games, there was enough in the 2nd half to indicate that there is some good football to come for the remainder of the season.  I doubt that we will be good enough for top 3 but there is no reason why we can't get 4th spot. 

 

Unfortunately the rest of the top 6 all won this weekend so we have not made up any ground.  Actually quite unusual for the top six to be playing the bottom 6 in the same weekend and for all the top six to win.

[Renegade]

Agreed with what others have said.  We were far better in the second half when we went a wee bit more direct and up and at them a bit more.  Good management by Hughes to change the formation and the approach slightly.  That's the way that suits us and they we should play all the time.  One thing I noticed in the first half was while we had more of the ball, Partick seemed to create more with it in the times they did have it.  We were more like that in the second half.

 

One thing though was that James Vincent was a passenger today.  Quite simply, he is not a winger and I'd have hooked him for Watkins at half-time.  It's a bit like playing Tansey or when Butcher used to play Draper out wide.  He should either be played in the middle, or not at all.  A winger he ain't.  Thought Danny Williams was quite good mind and I was surprised when he was the first man taken off.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Renegade

[Joe DiMaggio]

Was that a new announcer today? Liked the sound of his own voice! Was wishing he would just stop talking and repeating himself!

[Kingsmills]

The first half was very poor and we were very fortunate to go in level. The second half and the change of formation and attitude was a clear improvement and credit must go to the manager for the change although it could perhaps have been done earlier.

 

Not the most convincing of wins but very welcome at the current time. That's effectively three monkeys off our back. The manager's first home league win, the end of the collective goal drought and, from the point of view of his confidence, the welcome end to Billy's personal barren spell.

 

Special credit must go to Dean Brill today. There is no doubt that he has been enduring a sticky spell but today he kept us in the game in the first half while Partick were in the ascendancy.

 

Finally, regarding Richie Foran, there's no doubt that he is not as sharp and consistent as he was before his injury lay off but I think those who are suggesting that he's past his best may be just a tad premature. Just because he's 33 doesn't mean that his loss of form isn't temporary. Personally, I would not be surprised to see him back at his commanding and inspirational best next season.

 

Vincent has, for whatever reason, not been in the best of form lately and is maybe in need of a spell on the bench.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Kingsmills

[Renegade]

Was that a new announcer today? Liked the sound of his own voice! Was wishing he would just stop talking and repeating himself!

 

I think I'm right in saying that Stagecoach were one of today's sponsors!

[old caley girl]

Was that a new announcer today? Liked the sound of his own voice! Was wishing he would just stop talking and repeating himself!

I think I'm right in saying that Stagecoach were one of today's sponsors!

Wow would never have guessed that ha ha

[Council Juice]

We were second best in the first half but improved in the second half. Maybe just about merited the win, and certainly needed it. Onwards & upwards now.

I wasn't too keen on Vincent playing on the left as he instinctively kept coming inside leaving us very narrow. Glad to see Nick & Marley coming on, and think they need to feature more in coming games (especially if Dorans out). I think we can only have three of Tansey, Draper, Foran & Vincent playing at any one time.

We'll gratefully take the three points and move on.

 

I think it was probably tactics for him to play left and come inside, allowing Shinnie to run down the left. It didn't work. I've never been a fan of inverted wingers except Hayes. Not many can do it.

 

Richie, well he is a battler so it is understandable if he is a bit cheesed if he gets hooked, possibly more cheesed off with himself rather than anything else for not playing up to his own high expectations.

He will not, I fear, regain his past excellence, too many injuries in the last two seasons for that to happen, too much frustration because he knows there was a time when he was that much quicker and that much more accurate than he is now but he will always do the best he can for the team,

Even cameo appearances and super sub moments may be upon him before long but whatever his future he will give a valued contributing performance for ICT whenever called upon.

 

He is a players man but can take a seat along with the management as well.

 

Great he is on board the SS Sneckie

I think a few a pre judging Richie a little early. He's not long back from injury and like Hughes said, still a couple of games away from being right on his game. The same goes for Vincent, him more so, as he was out a while. Neither are fully match sharp and that'll only return through game time.

[dougal]

Boy did we need that result today, I'm delighted for Yogi seeing all the negativity been thrown at him since the Cup final

Well done big man

Dougal

[quizzer]

Same hymn sheet all round today then. Brill, Williams and Shinnie were only ones to get pass marks from me for first half, but different story in the second. Thought Tansey did really well, Vincent out wide did not work at all and I was desperate for nick or marley to come on. Bad day at the office fo Foran.

Surprised how late the subs were made but ultimately the right 3 came off and right 3 came on. Nick, williams and Christie deserve more match time while a few others could maybe do with a break, psychologically if nothing else. Maybe play more of devine and tremarco too. Looks like Greenhalgh has given up on playing for us again, unless he is just messing on twitter.

[AJS]

Would like to second Roughi's comment. I thought Williams was really good today...mainly cos he was played in his natural position, on the wing! Good pace and a decent cross, only drawback is he is very one footed but still another who there could be more to come from.

 

We have the luxury of having 4 quality players to play through the middle and Yogi seems to be struggling to pick who to cut from the starting 11. While he may have been poor today I wouldnt drop Foran. He is still far too influential to have out of the time. For me Id keep him in midfield and stick Tansey just off Billy or put Vincent back there, he will NEVER be a winger.

 

Alternatively with the season more or less over it would be great to see Ryan Christie get a longer run in the team, think he is perfect for the role just off the striker.

[Sneckboy]

 

Regarding entering Europe via the cup. As I understand it, If Dundee United finishes 4th and reach the final then they HAVE to play Aberdeen for us to get into Europe*. Aberdeen have to beat St Johnstone because if St Johnstone get to the final then the runners up would get the place. Dundee United vs St Johnstone would be the worst case scenario. 

 

*Dundee United have to win the cup of course. 

 

The above example still wouldn't qualify us for Europe. United winning the cup would see them qualifying alongside the teams 2nd and 3rd in the league. If United happened to be one of the 2nd or 3rd teams as well as winning the cup, then the club in 4th place would qualify.

There appear to be no scenarios where 5th place would be good enough (this season).

 

League: top 2 from Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee United, St Johnstone, Motherwell

Cup: winner from Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Johnstone

[Alex MacLeod]

The only real certainty of getting to europe is to finish third. Fourth place is not a guarantee. Without meaning to sound pessimistic I feel we may have blown our european hopes. Even with a game in hand its going to take something special to dislodge Aberdeen or Motherwell.

 

Assuming we overtake DU for 4th and Motherwell/Aberdeen stay where they are the scenario would be

 

DU v Aberdeen final = DU in Europe regardless of result.

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = St Johnstone in Europe

[Kingsmills]

I fear that Europe has gone. Fifth looking our most likely finish.

[Rasczak]

The only real certainty of getting to europe is to finish third. Fourth place is not a guarantee. Without meaning to sound pessimistic I feel we may have blown our european hopes. Even with a game in hand its going to take something special to dislodge Aberdeen or Motherwell.

 

Assuming we overtake DU for 4th and Motherwell/Aberdeen stay where they are the scenario would be

 

DU v Aberdeen final = DU in Europe regardless of result.

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = St Johnstone in Europe

 

That's not how I understand it. The only time the cup runners up get the Europa spot is if the cup winners have qualified for the Champions league.

 

Therefore if the league finishes with ICT 4th behind Aberdeen and Motherwell;

 

DU v Aberdeen final = Aberdeen win, ICT in Europe, DU win, them in Europe

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = Rangers win, ICT in Europe, ST J win, them in Europe

[ICTRoughi]

The only real certainty of getting to europe is to finish third. Fourth place is not a guarantee. Without meaning to sound pessimistic I feel we may have blown our european hopes. Even with a game in hand its going to take something special to dislodge Aberdeen or Motherwell.

 

Assuming we overtake DU for 4th and Motherwell/Aberdeen stay where they are the scenario would be

 

DU v Aberdeen final = DU in Europe regardless of result.

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = St Johnstone in Europe

 

That's not how I understand it. The only time the cup runners up get the Europa spot is if the cup winners have qualified for the Champions league.

 

Therefore if the league finishes with ICT 4th behind Aberdeen and Motherwell;

 

DU v Aberdeen final = Aberdeen win, ICT in Europe, DU win, them in Europe

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = Rangers win, ICT in Europe, ST J win, them in Europe

So basically need to finish 4th and need a Aberdeen vs Rangers final. I didn't realise runners up get it if winners are in Champions league.

[Sneckboy]

Yeah, runners-up get Europe if winners are already in Champions League. But with the Rangers scenario this season, it muddies-the-water slightly!

UEFA insist on there being a representative from the Scottish Cup in the Europa League (as a throwback to the old Cup Winners' Cup).

 

I go with Alex's interpretation, Rasczak. Assuming the Dons and 'well take 2nd & 3rd, we need to hope for an Aberdeen v, Rangers final and for us to finish 4th!

[Alex MacLeod]

 

The only real certainty of getting to europe is to finish third. Fourth place is not a guarantee. Without meaning to sound pessimistic I feel we may have blown our european hopes. Even with a game in hand its going to take something special to dislodge Aberdeen or Motherwell.

 

Assuming we overtake DU for 4th and Motherwell/Aberdeen stay where they are the scenario would be

 

DU v Aberdeen final = DU in Europe regardless of result.

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = St Johnstone in Europe

 

That's not how I understand it. The only time the cup runners up get the Europa spot is if the cup winners have qualified for the Champions league.

 

Therefore if the league finishes with ICT 4th behind Aberdeen and Motherwell;

 

DU v Aberdeen final = Aberdeen win, ICT in Europe, DU win, them in Europe

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = Rangers win, ICT in Europe, ST J win, them in Europe

 

My understanding.........there is one Champions league place for league winners and two Europa for 2nd and 3rd + one for cup winners. If cup winners already qualify then the place goes to runners up.

Also cup winners cannot already be in Champions League this season

Edited March 23, 2014 by Alex MacLeod

[Rasczak]

 

 

The only real certainty of getting to europe is to finish third. Fourth place is not a guarantee. Without meaning to sound pessimistic I feel we may have blown our european hopes. Even with a game in hand its going to take something special to dislodge Aberdeen or Motherwell.

 

Assuming we overtake DU for 4th and Motherwell/Aberdeen stay where they are the scenario would be

 

DU v Aberdeen final = DU in Europe regardless of result.

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = St Johnstone in Europe

 

That's not how I understand it. The only time the cup runners up get the Europa spot is if the cup winners have qualified for the Champions league.

 

Therefore if the league finishes with ICT 4th behind Aberdeen and Motherwell;

 

DU v Aberdeen final = Aberdeen win, ICT in Europe, DU win, them in Europe

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result

Rangers v St Johnstone = Rangers win, ICT in Europe, ST J win, them in Europe

 

My understanding.........there is one Champions league place for league winners and two Europa for 2nd and 3rd + one for cup winners. If cup winners already qualify then the place goes to runners up.

Also cup winners cannot already be in Champions League this season

 

 

 

The official line from the SPFL is here.

 

 

Relevant quote is, "In the event that the Scottish Cup winners have qualified for the Champions League, the Scottish Cup runners-up will qualify for the Europa League but will enter at qualifying round 1. If this happens, then the Scottish Premiership third place club will enter the Europa League at qualifying round 2."

 

 

This doesn't directly address the Cup Winners being in a Europa place in the league and who gets what there, however the implication is that the cup runners up qualify only if the cup winners are Champions League qualifiers, not Europa. This is backed by recent history where County were runners up to Dundee United in the 2009/10 cup, DU were 3rd in the league (2 CL places that year), DU got Europa, County a long journey home., Whereas last season Hibs got Europe for losing the final to Celtic.

 

Yeah, runners-up get Europe if winners are already in Champions League. But with the Rangers scenario this season, it muddies-the-water slightly!

UEFA insist on there being a representative from the Scottish Cup in the Europa League (as a throwback to the old Cup Winners' Cup).

 

I go with Alex's interpretation, Rasczak. Assuming the Dons and 'well take 2nd & 3rd, we need to hope for an Aberdeen v, Rangers final and for us to finish 4th!

 

If there has to be a cup final side in the Europa Cup that does indeed change things. That explains why runners up gets it if the winner is CL bound, and if the winner would get Europa through league, then moving the league qualifiers down works, as the cup winner is in Europa either way. 

 

Based on that all this, that means the actual scenarios for ICT 4th behind Aberdeen and Motherwell, Celtic as Champions is a combination of Alex and my suggestions, ie;

 

DU v Aberdeen final = Aberdeen win, ICT in Europe, DU win, them in Europe (Winner as cup final representatives)

DU v St J final = Winners in Europe (Winner as cup final representatives)

Aberdeen v Rangers = 4th place in Europe regardless of result (Aberdeen as cup final representatives)

Rangers v St Johnstone = ST J in Europe (St J as cup final representatives)

 

That would mean that we are in the strange position of wanting Rangers and Aberdeen to get to the cup final as it works out best for our own aspirations. Any other times you would really want to see that ?

Edited March 23, 2014 by Rasczak