Matchday Thread Inverness CT -V- Motherwell

[ICTRoughi]

Does any poster ever consider the fact that it is the players who are letting the club down lately? All references concern tactics/formations/shape etc. but very little has been made of which players have contributed to the club and which ones have not. Surely we should demand more of the first eleven regardless of the manager?

 

In no circumstance do I blame the players. I feel that they are doing what they are told to do and this is the result of it. I feel that Yogi has tried to go and change too much too soon and he's trying to do this with tired players too - a recipe for disaster. 

 

Yogi should make these changes during pre season and not a period where we are playing 13 games in 46 days. I can understand Yogi's style of play, he is trying to play nice football but the ulterior motivate is to try and restrict the opposition scoring and keep the clean sheet. At this current moment, I feel that the tactics are designed to keep a clean sheet rather than go and win a match which we were used to under Butcher. 

Edited April 2, 2014 by ICTRoughi

[+DoofersDad]

Does any poster ever consider the fact that it is the players who are letting the club down lately? All references concern tactics/formations/shape etc. but very little has been made of which players have contributed to the club and which ones have not. Surely we should demand more of the first eleven regardless of the manager?

 

Were you actually at the game last night and if so, were you in the dugout?  The players who you obviously feel are letting the club down are the players who had the team up  in 2nd place before the new manager came in.  They are the same players who gave their all yesterday in trying to play to a system which they know is not going to work and who were obviously very frustrated about it.  All the players have their good days and their bad days but yesterday you certainly could not fault them for lack of effort.

 

It was a bit like a new conductor telling the string section of an orchestra to play the wind instruments.  They can huff and puff all they want but it won't sound good and it won't be their fault.

[gingerjaggy]

I know that it is a huge disappointment when we could have kept in European contention but maybe the only light at the end of the tunnel is that the players use the time plus pre season to get used to new approach and maybe we will will be much better when the new season kicks off. The other thing is we do need more options up front so i know we aint going to see a whole new team come through the door but maybe we will get one or two gems which will make next season work to how he wants the players to play. Maybe im clutching at straws and i know some of performances have not been very good but i do feel that saying that we will suddenly become a bottom 6 six side next season is a little harsh. Tiredness doesn't help but in my view is not the biggest factor in the slump as you look at Motherwell who are slightly bigger but not huge by any means still fighting for second. I hope we can end the season better and pick up a few results along the way keeping us ahead of St Johnstone. We wont get Europe which i suppose Yogi has to say we have a chance but I cant see Aberdeen, United or Motherwell dropping the points that is needed for us to catch. But more to the point I cant see us winning all our remaining games to make it possible anyway. But i hate being negative that's not me I am optimist and although we are clearly frustrated by this terrible run of results we are not losing many games by a huge margin apart from the back to back 5-0s when he played 4-4-2. However we Finish this season I will always remember it for giving me the best day out in my life as a football supporter  

[absent friend]

[quote name="PerfICT" post="404671" timestamp="

Next will come the factionalisation of the once united dressing room with some favourites and some outsiders which too has been a feature of every club he's managed.

 

I see this sort of statement as a wish from the poster and unfortunately reduces the strength of his posts

  

 

In no circumstance do I blame the players.

None so blind etc!!

Meekings pass back, Brills kick outs,, Billy's one on one misses, Shinnies clearance into the ruck of players instead of out for a corner, a crap pass on the half way line leading to an easy goal loss, etc

I accept your point ..... not the players fault, all the managers!! AYE RIGHT!!

From a Happy Clapper who is less happy at the moment.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

 

Meekings pass back, Brills kick outs,, Billy's one on one misses, Shinnies clearance into the ruck of players instead of out for a corner, a crap pass on the half way line leading to an easy goal loss, etc

I accept your point ..... not the players fault, all the managers!! AYE RIGHT!!

 

While individual errors can be attributed to players, what doesn't help is a style of play that attracts pressure. Brill's kicking may not be great, but when he gets the ball and an opposing forward at pretty much the same time, things are going to go wrong.

 

If I can see that insisting we play in a particular way is leading to unfortunate consequences, is it too much to expect our management team, who should know what they are doing, to notice and act accordingly?

[+DoofersDad]

The players made mistakes even when we playing at our best earlier in the season.  If they didn't make mistakes they wouldn't be playing for us.  Mistakes are more noticable now because we are creating less and scoring less and this makes the errors more costly.  And maybe we are making more mistakes.  But the question is, why?  Different style of play, fewer chances created, more errors, same players, different manager. 

[ICTRoughi]

  

In no circumstance do I blame the players.

None so blind etc!!

Meekings pass back, Brills kick outs,, Billy's one on one misses, Shinnies clearance into the ruck of players instead of out for a corner, a crap pass on the half way line leading to an easy goal loss, etc

I accept your point ..... not the players fault, all the managers!! AYE RIGHT!!

From a Happy Clapper who is less happy at the moment.

As I said in my previous post is that I go on to say that I understand Yogi's style of play and if I was manager I would use it myself but only for games where I would be more keen on playing for a draw rather than getting a win because it keeps the fans entertained while playing for the draw.

Now, the drawbacks of employing this now is that we have employed it during a period where we have played 13 games in 46 days. I have said on personal conversations with others that I see Pre Season as the time where the tactic should be learned and mastered because at the the moment, the players have played a certain way for nearly 2 whole seasons and now a new manager has come in, he in my opinion has tried to get his own style of play in too quickly in a period where there's not much time for training.

I watch ICT a lot and I can see the players are finding the narrow style of play uncomfortable. Why? because it's not what they are used to and they are used to Butchers 'attacking width play'. Pre season will make or break the Yogi style of play.

I can understand why Yogi wants to play his way, well firstly it is his team and he wants to be recognised on his own merits rather than Terry Butchers. I personally wish he stuck to what he said when he joined 'Business as usual' especially during the gruelling schedule that we have endured.

In a sense I can see why he has tried his own tactic during this busy schedule because you'd think going to places like Tannadice and Fir Park a draw would be a fantastic result but the players are mentally and physically tired and I am 100% sure that they will be glad of the 2 week break coming and we might even see a fight for fourth place depending on the result tomorrow night and Dundee United vs Celtic this weekend.

[Council Juice]

Ross and Watkins/Williams should be starting every game, especially with Doran out.

 

Just curious, what teams are/were successful without wingers?

Barcelona, Chelsea, AC Milan.... Though all utilised their full backs to good effect.

 

 

 

 

Meekings pass back, Brills kick outs,, Billy's one on one misses, Shinnies clearance into the ruck of players instead of out for a corner, a crap pass on the half way line leading to an easy goal loss, etc

I accept your point ..... not the players fault, all the managers!! AYE RIGHT!!

 

While individual errors can be attributed to players, what doesn't help is a style of play that attracts pressure. Brill's kicking may not be great, but when he gets the ball and an opposing forward at pretty much the same time, things are going to go wrong.

 

If I can see that insisting we play in a particular way is leading to unfortunate consequences, is it too much to expect our management team, who should know what they are doing, to notice and act accordingly?

 

Hughes said himself it'd down to individual decision making after that, to me that sounds like he's saying use common sense when passing back to the keeper.

Personally I am a little disappointed with Hughes comment re his preferences to Butchers. As opposed to out and out focus on wing play, or trying to go through the middle we should be looking to utilise both forms of play where the opportunity presents itself, ie space on the wings - play it wide, get a cross in. Gap through the middle, exploit it. Variation, change, opportunistic approaches.

I'm happy with the idea of trying to evolve a team, but if he's just wanting to whole heartedly change us to one style I'm of the thinking it wont work..

Now previously I would be attributed to the "happy clapper" camp. I'm not a pessimist. I still feel that Hughes needs time. His results from the start of the year on are quite comparable to ours under Butcher in the same period last term, and a decent final flourish and they'd be better. They are also considerably better than Butchers at Hibs. It's not like he's taken our winning mentality with him. Add to that the mitigating circumstances of 13 games in 40 odd days and to me the players are reaching burn out.

In summary, Hughes needs to stick to his word about not changing what was a winning formula. Perhaps he's use the excuse of the 5-0 loss at Celtic as an excuse to change the system, despite previously embarking on a completely unbeaten February. But this team was built around good counter attacking play. We were not exactly a long ball team either. They played good "football" and played at a high tempo, as well as being able to play with variation. If the long ball option was on, it would be used. There is no shame in that.

I have no problem with him wanting to develop and educate players in better football techniques but he can't make us change overnight. It does not work.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Hughes said himself it'd down to individual decision making after that, to me that sounds like he's saying use common sense when passing back to the keeper.

 

But it gets so ponderous that the only option is to pass back. If, at best, all the keeper is going to do is hoof it, why doesn't one of the defenders hoof it before we get into bomb-scare back-pass territory? Everyone know that we are going to tippy-tap it about at the back, so they press the ball, which creates pressure, forces the back-pass and an opportunity to charge it down.

 

If you want to pass it about, do it 50 yards further up the pitch, and preferably not when you are the furthest man back.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

 

Ross and Watkins/Williams should be starting every game, especially with Doran out.

 

Just curious, what teams are/were successful without wingers?

Barcelona, Chelsea, AC Milan.... Though all utilised their full backs to good effect.

 

Barcelona play with wide forwards - Pedro/Sanchez/Neymar/Tello spend a huge amount of their time out on the touchline.

 

Ditto Hazard and Willian at Chelsea.

 

(Can't really comment on Milan as I don't follow Serie A)

 

In these teams, players start wide and wander infield, drawing full backs inside and so creating space for their own full backs to attack.  This is different from not playing any attacking players wide at all, which is what we are doing.

 

In addition, Barcelona, Chelsea and Milan have players who are about a million times more talented than those you find in the Scottish Premiership.

[LoganRoss]

 

Narrow, ponderous, pedestrian, predictable, Mckay hardly got a touch (all from BBC). 7 chances over 90 min is not entertainment. More chances in last 20 than previous 70 coincided with Christie's arrival (delighted for him, but he should have started).

The real problem is what to do for Friday? The one pitch where narrow is the way to go and he'll not know which way to turn. Wouldn't surprise me if he now goes with wingers on Friday, which won't be the thing to do there! Aaaaagh! So annoyed!

 

You may be annoyed but surely you're not surprised. The team is doing what every team John Hughes has managed has done throughout his managerial career and with the same result. Next will come the factionalisation of the once united dressing room with some favourites and some outsiders which too has been a feature of every club he's managed.

 

However, the manager is going nowhere this season or next so we need to get behind the team even if we do slide to sixth place this season and even more so next season which could well be a relegation battle. Treading water next season in the lower reaches of the division will be disappointing but not a disaster as long as we're not relegated.

 

With the fans behind the team, the players are talented enough to get at least tenth next year even being as badly managed as they clearly are. It's easy to support a team who are entertaining and successful but now and probably next season is the time to get right behind the players. It is not their fault for failing if they are simply trying to do what they are being instructed to.

 

10th really 10th? get off this forum if thats your're target for ICT

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

10th really 10th? get off this forum if thats your're target for ICT

 

That's not what he said.

[redandblack]

The new system was there for all to see against Motherwell. 1-9-1 !!!  The striker isolated, and the goalkeeper also stranded. That is why McKay is off the boil. Also why the centre backs are getting red cards.

[Council Juice]

 

 

Ross and Watkins/Williams should be starting every game, especially with Doran out.

 

Just curious, what teams are/were successful without wingers?

Barcelona, Chelsea, AC Milan.... Though all utilised their full backs to good effect.

 

Barcelona play with wide forwards - Pedro/Sanchez/Neymar/Tello spend a huge amount of their time out on the touchline.

 

Ditto Hazard and Willian at Chelsea.

 

(Can't really comment on Milan as I don't follow Serie A)

 

In these teams, players start wide and wander infield, drawing full backs inside and so creating space for their own full backs to attack.  This is different from not playing any attacking players wide at all, which is what we are doing.

 

In addition, Barcelona, Chelsea and Milan have players who are about a million times more talented than those you find in the Scottish Premiership.

 

That's what I was getting at, they play wide, but they are generally speaking playing on their wrong side (ie left footers playing on the right) so that they have to come in. They're not wingers as such. None of those listed players are expected to hit the bye line.

However as we both mentioned, it's to utilise attacking full backs which they all do, and even we did under Butcher. They overlap, either taking the full back with them so the wide player can cut in or taking advantage of the space the wide players create by dragging the full back inside.

The Milan team I refer to is the mid 2000s one with it's narrow diamond. But they had the Brazilian Tokely, Cafu. Who was one of the best attacking full backs ever. We dont. so we can't play a purposely narrow game like that. They also had Kaka, Seedorf and the quarterback Pirlo picking passes... bit of a difference. That lot could find gaps in a solid steel wall.