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Kingsmills

Rank ICT Managers

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RANK means "Disgusting, gross" So now you know - RANK means "Disgusting, gross" - don't thank us. YW! What does RANK mean? RANK is an acronym, abbreviation or slang word that is explained above where the RANK definition is given. So it can only be Terry Butcher.

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Although none of them were rank, they can all be ranked in order of popularity/success/ability/competence.

I would put Foran bottom of the list.

Top of the list - either John Hughes for what he has achieved with the team, or John Robertson for what he has yet to achieve.

3rd would be Steve Paterson, who set the ball rolling rather well, but probably out of his depth in SPL management. Who knows what might have been though?

In between would be all the rest, in no particular order, but I do feel that Charlie Christie never got a chance to realise his potential.

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Claiming Yogi is our best manager ever is like saying one of Dundee United's best managers ever was Ivan Golac!

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7 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

RANK means "Disgusting, gross" So now you know - RANK means "Disgusting, gross" - don't thank us. YW! What does RANK mean? RANK is an acronym, abbreviation or slang word that is explained above where the RANK definition is given. So it can only be Terry Butcher.

I suppose it all depends on whether you are using the word as an adjective or as the imperative of the verb.

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Renegade's updated list is reasonable for the most part but i do think there is a general tendency in his post and in the thread to overrate Robbo and underrate Brewster 1 and Charlie. Robbo had a hellish start to his first reign and ground out promotion from a very weak second tier with Pele's team the following season. We were then in a relegation scrap until he left and at that point the idea that we were about to establish ourselves as a top tier side for the next decade seemed beyond fanciful. When Brewster stepped in and inspired us to a series of comfortable wins it changed the whole scope of what seemed possible for the club to achieve, and we very quickly started to feel like we belonged in the top league . The 4-1 at Livingston was the turning point and we then went on a heady run that included a 3-0 win at home to Hibs and a 2-0 win at Tynecastle. Brewster's management style meant that he was never going to maintain that kind of impact, and it was clear from the lift the players got from his departure that he had already started to lose the dressing room. That lift, and Charlie's first months in charge, saw us play some fantastic football with Wyness, Dargo and Black seemingly liberated from the constraints of Brew's reactive system. The 4-2 at Tannadice and the 4-1 at Falkirk stand out from that period for me. While the following season saw us found at times, we were playing attractive open football and we beat Rangers home and away! 

No arguments with Pele top and Foran/Baltacha bottom. On Sergei, worth remembering that he had a full season with Caley in the Highland League prior to the merger and failed to win it with what was, by some distance, the best squad in the league. He took that same squad into the SFL and again underachieved while playing turgid football. Enter Pele....

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10 hours ago, Caley Stan said:

On Sergei, worth remembering that he had a full season with Caley in the Highland League prior to the merger and failed to win it with what was, by some distance, the best squad in the league.

Was it really? I would argue that Caley had been in decline since about 1988 when they won their final HL title at the last gasp. All they produced after that was the Qualifying Cup in 1991 and the North Cup under Baltacha in their final weeks in 1994. Meanwhile, Elgin City and Huntly under Pele and Ross County under Bobby Wilson played more dominant roles.

In fact, I would also suggest that Caley's decline and lack of success in these years was a significant factor in the club agreeing to merge with Thistle (which had also been in decline over the same period.) Had Caley continued to pile in the honours after 1988, I think there would have been a stronger desire in 1993 to go it alone.

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I think it's probably best to judge Robbo and Brewster's two spells separately - Robbo's because circumstances are different and they are 13 years apart, and Brewster's because his availability as a player made such a significant difference in his first period in charge.

Here's how I'd rank them, from last to first:

10. Foran - an absolute catastrophe. Tactically inept, clearly unable to manage a squad and absolutely hopeless at signing players. If we'd ditched him even in March 2017, we would have stayed up. His spell in charge has done this club a huge amount of harm.

9. Brewster's second spell - after an initial strong start things went badly wrong and the last eight months or so were awful. Another manager who struggled tactically and who wound up all the players the wrong way. And giving Andrew Barrowman a three year contract on a big wage?!

8. Baltacha - certainly had some challenges to deal with, given it was our first year in the league. But not even finishing in the bottom half of the Third Division with that squad was a disappointment and too often our style of football was dull as ditchwater.

7. Robbo's second spell - Controversial perhaps, but the bottom line is that we're still only seventh the Championship even though things have certainly improved after a terrible start. Assuming we don't go back up this season, the big test for him will be improving the squad this summer despite a likely reduction in budget.

6. Christie - I have a soft spot for Charlie, who signed some decent players and who often sent out the team to be quite adventurous. And the 2-1 win over Rangers in December 2006 is still one of my favourite ICT moments ever. But he couldn't crack top six.

5. Brewster's first spell - we went from relegation candidates to missing the top six on goal difference in five months. His ability and leadership as a player were undoubtedly huge factors. He also brought in Craig Dargo and established Ian Black (signed by Robbo) in the team.

4. Robbo's first spell - beat Celtic in the cup in his first half-season, won the first division and got us to two cup semi-finals. He had started getting us on the right track for survival when he left for Hearts. Oh, and he signed Darren Dods, who improved our defence about one-hundred fold when he got in the team.

3. Paterson - deserves his legend status because of our rise through the leagues and that incredible win at Celtic Park (and the oft-forgotten win at Tynecastle two years later), along with the reckless attacking football that we played. That said, he had a lot more to work with than most managers in the bottom two divisions did, and couldn't get us over the last hurdle. Not our best manager, but the guy who was managing us when we were the most fun!

2. Hughes - I imagine this will be heavily criticised! If this ranking was entirely on coaching ability he would certainly be top (he turned Carl Tremarco into a footballer!!!) and if it was entirely on transfer market success he would be near the bottom. Bottom line is he took us to third in the league and a Scottish Cup win, feats which may never be repeated - and did so with us playing some pretty sexy football. The fact that his reign started and ended pretty badly shouldn't detract from that.

1. Butcher - obviously left us in pretty acrimonious circumstances, and no-one would suggest that he was a tactical genius. But...he nearly kept us up in 2009 (we were five points adrift when he took over). He got us back up at the first attempt. He turned us into a top six team. The number of quality players he signed was quite remarkable. And man he was good with the media, talking us up all the time.

 

(puts tin hat on, awaits incoming fire)

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Charles, you're probably right on all of those points. I was pretty young at the time so can't put that side into historical context (i only saw Caley win the two trophies you mention), but I just felt that there were a lot of very good players in that squad (if not the best squad in the league then surely the largest budget?) and Sergei failed to turn them into a decent team. The atmosphere around the club obviously didn't help. 

Edited by Caley Stan

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29 minutes ago, Caley Stan said:

Charles, you're probably right on all of those points. I was pretty young at the time so can't put that side into historical context (i only saw Caley win the two trophies you mention), but I just felt that there were a lot of very good players in that squad (if not the best squad in the league then surely the largest budget?) and Sergei failed to turn them into a decent team. The atmosphere around the club obviously didn't help. 

Stan - your observations were probably pretty spot on but that Caley side's quest for trophies was frustrated by Ross County under Bobby Wilson who then launched them very successfully into the SFL and by Elgin and Huntly under Steve Paterson of whom no more needs said on here. That all these sides were so good at that time 1988-94 probably also contributed to the SFL election of CT and County in 1994. 

If you take a look at the Prequel chapter and Chapter 1 of Against All Odds in the revised online edition on this site, you'll find the background in more detail.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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Just now, Charles Bannerman said:

Stan - your observations were probably pretty spot on but that Caley side's quest for trophies was frustrated by Ross County under Bobby Wilson who then launched them very successfully into the SFL and by Elgin and Huntly under Steve Paterson of whom no more needs said on here. That all these sides were so good at that time 1988-94 probably also contributed to the SFL election of CT and County in 1994. 

If you take a look at the Prequel chapter and Chapter 1 of Against All Odds in the revised online edition on this site, you'll find the background in more detail.

I also dont think we had anywhere near the largest budget at that time either. 

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46 minutes ago, Charles Bannerman said:

Stan - your observations were probably pretty spot on but that Caley side's quest for trophies was frustrated by Ross County under Bobby Wilson who then launched them very successfully into the SFL and by Elgin and Huntly under Steve Paterson of whom no more needs said on here. That all these sides were so good at that time 1988-94 probably also contributed to the SFL election of CT and County in 1994. 

If you take a look at the Prequel chapter and Chapter 1 of Against All Odds in the revised online edition on this site, you'll find the background in more detail.

shameless plug :-) 

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11 hours ago, hislopsoffsideagain said:

I think it's probably best to judge Robbo and Brewster's two spells separately - Robbo's because circumstances are different and they are 13 years apart, and Brewster's because his availability as a player made such a significant difference in his first period in charge.

Here's how I'd rank them, from last to first:

10. Foran - an absolute catastrophe. Tactically inept, clearly unable to manage a squad and absolutely hopeless at signing players. If we'd ditched him even in March 2017, we would have stayed up. His spell in charge has done this club a huge amount of harm.

9. Brewster's second spell - after an initial strong start things went badly wrong and the last eight months or so were awful. Another manager who struggled tactically and who wound up all the players the wrong way. And giving Andrew Barrowman a three year contract on a big wage?!

8. Baltacha - certainly had some challenges to deal with, given it was our first year in the league. But not even finishing in the bottom half of the Third Division with that squad was a disappointment and too often our style of football was dull as ditchwater.

7. Robbo's second spell - Controversial perhaps, but the bottom line is that we're still only seventh the Championship even though things have certainly improved after a terrible start. Assuming we don't go back up this season, the big test for him will be improving the squad this summer despite a likely reduction in budget.

6. Christie - I have a soft spot for Charlie, who signed some decent players and who often sent out the team to be quite adventurous. And the 2-1 win over Rangers in December 2006 is still one of my favourite ICT moments ever. But he couldn't crack top six.

5. Brewster's first spell - we went from relegation candidates to missing the top six on goal difference in five months. His ability and leadership as a player were undoubtedly huge factors. He also brought in Craig Dargo and established Ian Black (signed by Robbo) in the team.

4. Robbo's first spell - beat Celtic in the cup in his first half-season, won the first division and got us to two cup semi-finals. He had started getting us on the right track for survival when he left for Hearts. Oh, and he signed Darren Dods, who improved our defence about one-hundred fold when he got in the team.

3. Paterson - deserves his legend status because of our rise through the leagues and that incredible win at Celtic Park (and the oft-forgotten win at Tynecastle two years later), along with the reckless attacking football that we played. That said, he had a lot more to work with than most managers in the bottom two divisions did, and couldn't get us over the last hurdle. Not our best manager, but the guy who was managing us when we were the most fun!

2. Hughes - I imagine this will be heavily criticised! If this ranking was entirely on coaching ability he would certainly be top (he turned Carl Tremarco into a footballer!!!) and if it was entirely on transfer market success he would be near the bottom. Bottom line is he took us to third in the league and a Scottish Cup win, feats which may never be repeated - and did so with us playing some pretty sexy football. The fact that his reign started and ended pretty badly shouldn't detract from that.

1. Butcher - obviously left us in pretty acrimonious circumstances, and no-one would suggest that he was a tactical genius. But...he nearly kept us up in 2009 (we were five points adrift when he took over). He got us back up at the first attempt. He turned us into a top six team. The number of quality players he signed was quite remarkable. And man he was good with the media, talking us up all the time.

 

(puts tin hat on, awaits incoming fire)

You have some memory Hislop great report :clapping:

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12 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

Was it really? I would argue that Caley had been in decline since about 1988 when they won their final HL title at the last gasp. All they produced after that was the Qualifying Cup in 1991 and the North Cup under Baltacha in their final weeks in 1994. Meanwhile, Elgin City and Huntly under Pele and Ross County under Bobby Wilson played more dominant roles.

In fact, I would also suggest that Caley's decline and lack of success in these years was a significant factor in the club agreeing to merge with Thistle (which had also been in decline over the same period.) Had Caley continued to pile in the honours after 1988, I think there would have been a stronger desire in 1993 to go it alone.

This is-quelle surprise-utter garbage. Caley's Scottish Cup run in 91-92 was probably their most high profile ever, attracting sellout crowds and 4,000 travelling fans to St Johnstone, and leading to national debate about senior status.

Though I guess you had to actually be there to remember it.

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What a wonderful example of using the exception to attempt to deny the otherwise overwhelmingly obvious. And then there's the complete red herring of quoting crowd size to make a point about on-field performance. In any case, having attended both the Clyde and St Johnstone home games in that cup run along with with several others at that time, the only "sell out" I ever saw was St Johnstone. It's amazing how more rose-coloured the Howden End has become over the intervening years and I am, of course, certain that the entire alleged 4000 Perth Travel Club were also regular Telford Street attenders, but every single one of them has since steadfastly refused to darken the turnstiles of the Caledonian Stadium.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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