Can Yogi maintain our momentum ?

[caleyboy]

Considering the price to watch football in Holland and Germany are we to assume that players earn much less than those in Scotland? I doubt it somehow.

[Alex MacLeod]

There are many figures bandied about for prices and yes there are cheap tickets to be had on the continent. Borussia Dortmund, in 2012, had a cheap ticket of just over £12 and their most expensive was over £40. My question is how many of those cheap seats do they sell in relation to the dear ones? There are many other things to consider as well. How much TV revenues do the German and Dutch teams get? I'll bet its a damn sight more than the pittance accepted in Scotland. What about the costs of policing games? The cost of referee's etc. The costs for insurance. Are they cheaper than in Scotland? I don't think there are any teams in Scotland making profit for their shareholders so all revenue is used up in the cost of the game. If we want our teams to be successful then we have to accept the cost that the clubs deem to be the best they can afford to offer. If we don't accept it then do we walk away? Or should we start hitting the broadcasters in the pocket? Trouble is the people who run our game are cowards when it comes to facing up to Sky and BT. Christ! We even paid them back money because Rangers dropped out of SPL. Would the same have happened if Killie or Inverness dropped out? No! Would such a situation arise in EPL? I think not. They would never have agreed to a deal that revolved solely around two of their teams. Scottish football messed up big time in allowing the breakaway Premier League and now the only way teams can survive is to hit the fans in the pocket.

[lizi]

What has the price of entry to foreign games, or those in England!, got to do with Yogi and momentum? Off topic seriously.

[+bughtmaster]

I am  easily distracted, it's an age thing !!

[+Fraz]

What has the price of entry to foreign games, or those in England!, got to do with Yogi and momentum? Off topic seriously.

Aye but, ya know, if it wasn't for Yogi tickets would be cheaper. Surely all his fault. #Yogiout

[Council Juice]

What has the price of entry to foreign games, or those in England!, got to do with Yogi and momentum? Off topic seriously.

Well people were stating that with Yogi we have no momentum and because of that people were turning their backs. And the fact numbers have been on the drop for a number of years. That people were choosing to be arm chair fans

My point was perhaps with the standard price of games being a minimum of £20 at the cheapest clubs that it was turning fans away. The fans of Man City can get in for a minimum of £26. Just £6 more to watch the best team in the league with the biggest tv deal in world football.

I was also making the point that when comparing it to European leagues, lets take the Dutch, their top end teams, the Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV (ie the Old FIrm) can charge LESS than the cheapest teams in the Scottish top flight. Ajax - Feyenoord a massive game, with a lot of fierce fan rivalries I would imagine costs significantly more to put on than ICT - Kilmarnock.

Of course, yes, they have many more fans attending games to make up these costs. But at least they're still allowing the fans to afford it with cheap pricing at big rival games.

The standard of football and attendance levels in Scotland are akin to Football league 2 if not less. The  games there are for between £13-20 and the players don't earn less than our lot, nor do the games cost more to police etc.

I can't see them getting vastly more in TV and sponsorship money down at the bottom of the football league either.

You want fans, make the prices relate to standard of entertainment.

[12th Man]

I had the view that if you reduce prices you get x amount more through the door.

 

What blew that theory clean out of the water was that for all the season ticket holders that we have, the numbers hardly increased when they could take someone for free !

 

Scottish cup QF  £10 adults £5 children. 

 

You need x amount of fans to break even, any extra fans are pure profit.

 

Pulling figures out of thin air,  if a seat costs £25, 2000 generate £50,000 if that is the figure to break even, then at  £15  you have to suddenly find an extra 1,333 fans paying full price just to break even, an increase of 66.6% and even offering free tickets to st holders didnt increase volume by that much. Nor did cup tickets at £10.

[+Fraz]

It's all very well to say that ticket prices should be slashed to try and get more people through door. I'm sure the club (and other clubs too) would love to take the price down to try and get more people to come however there are real financial issues to take account of. Our prices are in line with the rest of the Premiership and I'd imagine are set to try and maximise the income, much higher and there would be a large drop off in people coming, much less and the extra people coming doesn't make up for reduced prices.

 

We've had a couple of good seasons so I believe our finances are reasonably healthy but if I recall before this we'd often be looking for about £200k a season to balance our books which we seemingly managed to do through various means. So where do we cut prices from as we run on a very tight budget? No doubt if we slashed prices and made a huge loss people would be on here moaning that we're not financially prudent enough and the board could be threatening the future of the club, or perhaps we could cut the playing budget to pay for it, would folk be happy with that?

 

It's nonsense to compare us to Germany or even England and say 'but look they're cheaper, or just a wee bit more expense and look at the world class football you can see' These leagues and teams take in in colossal amounts from sponsorship, tv rights and investment and can quite frankly afford to make it cheaper for their fans. We can't, the prices are where they are because that's where they need to be.

 

If we were turning millions in profit every season, fair enough we could afford to cut prices but we don't, personally I think it's more scandalous that they have the cheek to charge over £3 for a hot dog but that stops me eating more fast food so it's probably a good thing tbh.

[caleyboy]

We really do need a "Sugar Daddy".

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Perhaps it was fortuitous that Yogi took over as the Narcissistic Judas may have dropped us in to the relegation mire and we could have been playing Hamilton.

[Council Juice]

I had the view that if you reduce prices you get x amount more through the door.

 

What blew that theory clean out of the water was that for all the season ticket holders that we have, the numbers hardly increased when they could take someone for free !

 

Scottish cup QF  £10 adults £5 children. 

 

You need x amount of fans to break even, any extra fans are pure profit.

 

Pulling figures out of thin air,  if a seat costs £25, 2000 generate £50,000 if that is the figure to break even, then at  £15  you have to suddenly find an extra 1,333 fans paying full price just to break even, an increase of 66.6% and even offering free tickets to st holders didnt increase volume by that much. Nor did cup tickets at £10.

 

I have to accept that, this can't be denied. Though I think this is due to so many fans slowly but surely getting fed up of seeing sub par entertainment, not just at ICT, but in Scottish football as a whole. 10 years ago the SPL could perhaps have competed with low end Premier League, Championship and league 1 clubs depending on the team. Now most teams are around a league 2 standard at best. That's where the players are coming in from in a lot of cases.

So it's been a problem for a while. When gates were higher clubs were over spending in other departments or taking it for granted the fans would remain, Now every clubs attendances are down for numerous reasons. On a whole most people can't afford it, or as there is so much football available on tv now choose not to attend in the freezing cold and rain. Clubs are caught in a fix. They can't really reduce ticket prices without the guarantee of extra fans, but the ticket prices are as they stand no fair value.

It's nonsense to compare us to Germany or even England and say 'but look they're cheaper, or just a wee bit more expense and look at the world class football you can see' These leagues and teams take in in colossal amounts from sponsorship, tv rights and investment and can quite frankly afford to make it cheaper for their fans. We can't, the prices are where they are because that's where they need to be.

 

If we were turning millions in profit every season, fair enough we could afford to cut prices but we don't, personally I think it's more scandalous that they have the cheek to charge over £3 for a hot dog but that stops me eating more fast food so it's probably a good thing tbh.

EFL league 2 does not take in colossal amounts in sponsorship, tv rights and investment and on the most part have similar fan bases, but charge £12-20 as opposed to £20-30.

I don't see the problem in charging high end for food at games, it's similar to the cinema, where they actually make very little profit from the tickets so have huge profit margins on the food and beverage to cover costs. You aren't forced to buy it to attend.

I'm not saying go as low as £12 from £20, that would be financial suicide, however a small drop to say £18 might be worth a try. Shops don't charge £19.99 just to be annoying, it works as a selling technique over a nice round number.

How much are programs these days? £2 (well they should be), oh look every fan has £2 left from their £20 note, may as well buy a program....

[CaleyD]

Taking £2 off a ticket doesn't sound much, but it would have reduced the clubs income by somewhere in the region of £130,000 over the season.

 

All rough figures, but to cover that cost, you need to sell between 7500 & 11000 extra tickets over the season (depending on whether it's concession or full price).  Which is the equivalent of increasing the average attendance by between 400 & 600.

 

If free tickets aren't adding that many to the gate for a game, then a £2 discount certainly isn't going to do it.

 

Maybe the question is....why aren't season ticket holders making better use of the "bring a friend for free" or "bring a friend for a fiver" type offers?  Well, the truth is, they are....but (for the most part) instead of using the offer to bring along someone new, they're using them to get cheap entry for someone who already attends games but isn't a season ticket holder. 

 

Is it naive of the club to think that people who intended to attend the game anyway will pay full price when they can get a free/cheap ticket from a season ticket holding friend?  Yes, probably.

 

Is it too much to expect (more) season ticket holders to make use of these offers in the manner they are intended by bringing along someone new, someone who perhaps wasn't going to the game anyway...or, even treating someone who can't afford it and may never make any games otherwise?  Since these offers have no significant positive impact on attendances and the offers are being taken up, then it would seem it is!

 

So, whilst it's easy to point the finger at the club and say "you should be doing more" (and no doubt there's things they can/will), you have to look to the fans in equal measure and realise/accept that we also have a large part to play....if not directly, then at the very least by not partaking in activities which only serve to negate the efforts of the club.

[Council Juice]

It's not ICT in particular. We have among the cheapest prices out in our league, It's Scottish football as a whole. Trying to convince others it's a big brand elite sport, when really it's a diddy league with fairly poor teams throughout.

[CaleyD]

Not much point in me trying to tell you that I think we actually have a fairly decent product in Scottish Football then?

[Alan]

Well said CaleyD. Some of the rubbish games on TV from south of the border are as entertaining as watching paint dry - and that includes the Premier League. Why do so many people run down the game in Scotland - I've seen numerous cracking encounters at the stadium and hope to see many more

[Renegade]

I've often been very skeptical over the standard of the Scottish game compared to the English tiers.  I know it was only a friendly, but I saw ICT play Charlton in the summer and I thought Charlton were rubbish.  Even more so when you consider that the Charlton players were probably on about fives time what our players are on a week.  I know Coventry are in disarray at the moment, but thought when we played them, they were hopeless too.  The day we beat Charlton, Dundee United beat Wigan.  We matched Real Valladolid at the stadium as well and they'd just been relegated from La Liga.  

 

Obviously the English Premier League is one of the elite leagues in the world and a far higher standard than ours, but I'm unconvinced that we're that far behind the Championship, if at all.  I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure I read once that there was a study done to find which was the most entertaining league in Europe and the English Premier League finished last, after all world class players can still he held in a bore draw.  While the standard is not spectacular, I think what you get here is not bad at all entertainment-wise and the standard doesn't need to be high to see an exciting game.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Renegade

[KingBeastie]

Some of the rubbish games on TV from south of the border are as entertaining as watching paint dry

We are constantly told it's the "Best League in the world", we are subjected to so much coverage of english football, we are told it's the only league that matters, everything else is just not as good.

Some people believe it.

 

I'd rather watch Motherwell v Hibs than Aston Villa v Fulham any day, at least it (may) affects a team I care about.  Each to their own I guess.

[Council Juice]

Every league has good games, and absolute stinkers, but the standard in Scotland is significantly lower. Yes there are some games in England I have no interest in, and some in Scotland I'd actively watch but that's not the point.
The players are nowhere near as good and you notice it. Most of our team, for example, come from teams who have released players in league 1 and 2 and we're top 6. The teams they are leaving deem them surplus to requirements. Surely that says something?

I watch a lot of English football, but I watch a lot of German football and the occasional French and Italian game (depending on who's playing) in addition to Scottish games on both BT sport and BBC Alba.

You can't pull up pre season friendlies against lower league English teams as a fair comparison of the standard. 1st thing is they're pre season friendlies, the result doesn't matter too much. It's about building match fitness and getting the tactics right.
Secondly the Scottish teams are usually about 2 weeks ahead in their pre season campaigns, therefore the fitness levels tends to be a little higher.

Why do you think Scottish teams, aside from the odd result are in general horrific in Europe. Hibs 9-0 to Malmo FFS? Such a high standard. Our other teams were out before the groups stages too and Celtic were limp.

My point is not that I think that Scottish football is rubbish (though the standard in the last 10-15 years has dropped drastically) but that the prices in the top flight are too high in general and do not reflect the product on offer.
It's not like the gate numbers disprove this assertion. They continue to tumble across the board and will again next season.

[12th Man]

Everyone else is irrelivent, you support your club and your team, your local team.

No matter how big or small, its  your club.

Edited May 28, 2014 by 12th Man

[+bughtmaster]

What has all this to do with Yogi and momentum ???

[Council Juice]

What has all this to do with Yogi and momentum ???

I explained a while back, something to do with Yogi being the reason everything is going to **** and all the fans wont renew tickets because of it apparently.

My point was fans across the league are going to less games because the standard is dwindling, there is nothing real to play for in the top flight asides from a short Europa league qualifying run embarrassment, and ticket prices are too high to reflect this.

All quite simple really.

[CaleyD]

 

What has all this to do with Yogi and momentum ???

I explained a while back, something to do with Yogi being the reason everything is going to shit and all the fans wont renew tickets because of it apparently.

My point was fans across the league are going to less games because the standard is dwindling, there is nothing real to play for in the top flight asides from a short Europa league qualifying run embarrassment, and ticket prices are too high to reflect this.

All quite simple really.

 

 

With the spilt and resulting imbalance in fixtures directly impacting on attendances then it's near impossible to compare one season with the next.....you probably need to take a 4 or 5 year average/trend to get a true picture.

 

If we get the "due" fixtures next season then I'll happily wager that our average attendance will be up by 500 or more on this seasons.

[Ayeseetee]

I've often been very skeptical over the standard of the Scottish game compared to the English tiers.  I know it was only a friendly, but I saw ICT play Charlton in the summer and I thought Charlton were rubbish.  Even more so when you consider that the Charlton players were probably on about fives time what our players are on a week.  I know Coventry are in disarray at the moment, but thought when we played them, they were hopeless too.  The day we beat Charlton, Dundee United beat Wigan.

Didn't celtic also beat liverpool that day?

 

 

Edit: yeah they did....

 

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

It's absurd to even try to pretend that our league compares favourably against England's. We've got about 9% of their population so can't expect to compete with their strength-in-depth.

Our 2nd tier has some part-time clubs in it, while even most of England's top non-league clubs are full-time.

For example, Dean Brill walked straight into our team despite being deemed surplice to requirements (as 3rd choice keeper) at a non-league side.

[+bughtmaster]

Aye Sneckboy some people just can't see talent even though it is in front of their noses.