Eu - In / Out Referendum

[Ayeseetee]

Please respect other peoples opinions and keep it friendly - DO NOT POST IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THESE TWO RULES.

[Ayeseetee]

Apparently unlike the recent referendum this one will not effect the economy and cause a new great depression... how does that work exactly?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29985949

Edited November 10, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Charles Bannerman]

Apparently unlike the recent referendum this one will not effect the economy and cause a new great depression... how does that work exactly?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29985949

Possibly the same way as London having power instead of Edinburgh = bad while Brussels having power instead of Edinburgh apparently = good.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[old caley girl]

I can't see how it's in our interests to leave tbh so I will vote to remain in the EU

[+DoofersDad]

I'm just looking forward to Nichola Sturgeon spearheading the "Better Together" campaign in Scotland.

[Ayeseetee]

 

Apparently unlike the recent referendum this one will not effect the economy and cause a new great depression... how does that work exactly?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29985949

Possibly the same way as London having power instead of Edinburgh = bad while Brussels having power instead of Edinburgh apparently = good.

Brussels having power instead of London = good

Is that what you meant?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

I'm just looking forward to Nichola Sturgeon spearheading the "Better Together" campaign in Scotland.

 

If the snp do spearhead "Better Together" does that make labour / tory / lib the dirty nationalists?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

 

I'm just looking forward to Nichola Sturgeon spearheading the "Better Together" campaign in Scotland.

 

If the snp do spearhead "Better Together" does that make labour / tory / lib the dirty nationalists?

 

No,  As things stand they will all be united in support of the EU.  Of course, if Cameron is unable to negotiate any changes that the Tories feel are in the UK's benefit then the Conservatives may well support coming out of Europe - but they will be split either way. 

[Oddquine]

 

Apparently unlike the recent referendum this one will not effect the economy and cause a new great depression... how does that work exactly?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29985949

Possibly the same way as London having power instead of Edinburgh = bad while Brussels having power instead of Edinburgh apparently = good.

 

 

But logically, Charles, if a Union Treaty with the EU forces the UK to obey laws and suffer economic and other strictures for which it didn't vote, and the UK has them imposed because they are outnumbered by representatives of other counties who think differently, to the extent that they wish to remove themselves from that Union, or at the very least drastically change the rules....why have you and others not recognised that exactly the same situation pertains for the majority of the population of Scotland regarding the Treaty of Union with England?

 

Unions are good if they are perceived to work for the majority, bad if they aren't. As far as the right wing UK parties are concerned, which is all of them, even the "left wing" NuLabour Party, if it will get them votes, the EU doesn't work for them, not because it is not economically beneficial, but because it doesn't allow them to stamp even harder on the foreheads of the poor and disadvantaged with complete impunity.

 

Scotland, on the other hand, is broadly in favour of it, not just because of the economics of it, but also because it is a very last resort for challenging Westminster policies in a Court which is not populated by Law Lords beholden to the Westminster ethos, who interpret woolly law and are more limited in their powers of judicial review.  In the end, though, it is down to whether the UK want  to lose the employment companies have brought in because we are in the EU, and the employment in UK exporting companies which are dependent on being in the EU, of or lose that employment, in order to be able to ignore the EU Human Rights Acts, which are based on those of the UN. It seems to me that it isn't the majority of Scots, despite the rhetoric produced during the referendum debate/furore, who are the isolationists and nationalists here, but the "British" as epitomised by the Unionists in Westminster.

 

Kindly explain to me the good/bad difference between Scotland being towed along on the coat-tails of UK policy for which we didn't vote,  and the UK being towed along on the coat tails of EU policies for which it didn't vote..why is Scotland out of the UK perceived as so bad for Scotland, and the UK out of Europe perceived as so good for the UK? 

 

Won't the UK face the same drastic problems, if they remove themselves  (and all of the devolved nations) from the EU as they claimed Scotland would face on an Independence vote, regarding keeping heads above bankruptcy water? Given the UK's National Debt is horrendous and rising, while Scotland's "National Debt" is substantially less(and much of it is because we are in the Union, which proves that some of us are "better together"..just not us), although we have to pay an inequitable (going by what we receive of it) amount to service the results of UK profligacy, the annual service charges for which came in as the fourth biggest cost  to the taxpayer in 2011, after social security, health and education, but which is now said to be the third highest cost. (and that is despite the Coalition claim that the UK budget would be in balance by 2015. ) do you think that the UK has a competent representative Government which actually gives a toss about anything but enriching themselves?

 

So I'd appreciate an explanation of the difference you perceive between the position of the UK within the EU, and Scotland within the Treaty of Union.

[Laurence]

I must confess that over the years a great many, I have changed my mind on this aspect over and over again

In the Harold Wilson referendum an membership I voted to stay in

Some years later when Michael Foot then Leader of the Labour Party  I think in the general election decided to pull out , I supported him. Margaret Thatcher won by a landslide. It was clear at that time that membership of the E U , won for ever.

Now because of  freedom of movement between member states we find there is a move fuelled by the right wing press to leave Europe.

I now ask myself is this a realistic idea to leave the E U . Basically I have no real definite  idea.

I see a lot of industries that export to Europe struggling if their commodities are blocked in favour of trade within the E U taking preference over U K exports.

You could argue the Poland has a special liking for Britain its forces were necessary during WW2 and so the people of Poland more than citizens of other E U nations seek to enter the UK. Do we know whether the immigration has peaked. Will younger people go back to their home country after a while.

The whole debate is a minefield. No one really knows the answer. I will I feel vote to stay in, For one thing there are enough parties in the UK , causing upset. I have always believed in politics you are Red or Blue. This makes for strong government. I don't want UKip clouding the horizon of politics.

[Laurence]

Cost of Democracy ?

I  am told

 

Cost of Scottish referendum £16,000,000

Cost of Mayoral Referendums ( There have been several ) between £500,000 and £1.5m

Cost of Transferable vote referendum £50,000,000

Projected cost of E U referendum £100,000,000

Cost of German General Election in 1933 60 million lives , ( including 6 million Jews gassed or shot , or starved  )  destruction of several major cities principally. Dresden , Hamburg, Berlin, Major damage to London and Coventry amongst others. 

 

Democracy does not come cheap. Especially when it is driven by  the right wing press

[Scarlet Pimple]

Oddquine I picked up on your comments about the Law Lords beholden to the Westminster elites.

Because it was the latter that put the former in their jobs so you know where the loyalty of the Law Lords lie-- to the paymaster of course, especially when the very large salaries and perquisites are involved, which, compared to the pension payments of U K pensioners no matter where they live, would reveal a huge, disgusting disparity  not to mention a  lifestyle  as different as chalk from cheese. Compassion does not even come into sway in the minds of the super rich and privileged. I note also with interest the later comment made that

 

Why do you think that the first rejection of  the Alliance of British Pensioners plea to the High Court in London for parity of pension upgrade amounts for Ex Pats with those of pensioners who live in the U.K. ( we all paid the same premiums long ago)was rejected--the Lordly lawyer who wrote the rejection decision  was sharing Chambers with Madame Cheri Blair the wife of the British Prime Minister of the day.  So was there any chance whatsoever of a fair and equitable decision.? Never in a thousand years.

 

Your other points also resonated as much as common sense as anything else.  e.g. What you say about such extremely privileged people stamping on the heads of the much more  disadvantaged poor etc.

 

Welcome to the current world, Oddquine. Don't you hope and pray that in your next re-incarnation you will be born on another planet where the inhabitants are more enlightened, less dedicated to power and money and privilege, lesswarlike, more fair to all,

etc.etc.

 If given a choice just choose Utopia.

[Laurence]

This isn't a referendum about the qualities of the  EU at all.

It is a poll which should be dubbed in the American Western style

 

" Get them there strangers out of town "

 

Yes or No ?

[Laurence]

Please respect other peoples opinions and keep it friendly - DO NOT POST IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THESE TWO RULES.

 

I think Scarlet has crossed the line in his reference to Oddquine

 

Don't you hope and pray that in your next re-incarnation you will be born on another planet where the inhabitants are more enlightened, less dedicated to power and money and privilege, less warlike, more fair to all,

 

Scarlet has no evidence that Oddquine is dedicated to money privilege and  most notably warlike

[Scarlet Pimple]

Laurence--for goodness sake, where on earth did I suggest in any way, shape or form, that these words were addressed to  Oddquine or in any way were in reference to her as you have suggested? After many posts the fact that you have chosen deliberately to "overlook"  the many, many "likes" that I have given this good lady over many months should be proof enough that I would never have reason or thought in my mind to ever attribute these things to her. A more civil, tolerant and fair lady I have rarely met.
 

It was merely (as you actually very well know) a tongue in cheek, rather sad commentary  on what my experience has taught me of what is happening in this world and a suggestion that we ALL might be privileged by perhaps not coming back here next time around. 

And I am of the firm impression that the only reason for your saying it was to cause trouble on the basis of divide and conquer. However, no doubt you will reply by saying  that you only meant it as a joke..?. If so, a misguided and cheap one IMHO!

 

You are something of a rather different person with a really thick skin with oddly negative views to match and you get by on here because of the tolerance of the members who believe in free speech and the good control of the site by two outstanding members and associates. You rarely answer a straight question head on and, from personal & private, experience, I am not quite sure that your personal manners measure up either. To summarise--I don't care for you greatly as a person so let's leave it at that. 

[Oddquine]

 

Please respect other peoples opinions and keep it friendly - DO NOT POST IF YOU CANNOT FOLLOW THESE TWO RULES.

 

I think Scarlet has crossed the line in his reference to Oddquine

 

Don't you hope and pray that in your next re-incarnation you will be born on another planet where the inhabitants are more enlightened, less dedicated to power and money and privilege, less warlike, more fair to all,

 

Scarlet has no evidence that Oddquine is dedicated to money privilege and  most notably warlike

 

 

I read English as she is wrote, Laurence, and I didn't take from Scarlet's comment any allusion to me specifically, bar his thought that I might wish not to be reincarnated on an earth as it is now, in which the inhabitants, of which I am one, as you are yourself, are dedicated to power and money and privilege, warlike, unfair to the disadvantaged.

 

But he needn't worry....... I have decided I am going to be reincarnated on this planet as an irritating mosquito, immune to pesticides and too fast to be swatted, whereupon I will spend the eternity of my new existence annoying politicians.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Oddquine

[Laurence]

Laurence--for goodness sake, where on earth did I suggest in any way, shape or form, that these words were addressed to  Oddquine or in any way were in reference to her as you have suggested? After many posts the fact that you have chosen deliberately to "overlook"  the many, many "likes" that I have given this good lady over many months should be proof enough that I would never have reason or thought in my mind to ever attribute these things to her. A more civil, tolerant and fair lady I have rarely met.

 

It was merely (as you actually very well know) a tongue in cheek, rather sad commentary  on what my experience has taught me of what is happening in this world and a suggestion that we ALL might be privileged by perhaps not coming back here next time around. 

And I am of the firm impression that the only reason for your saying it was to cause trouble on the basis of divide and conquer. However, no doubt you will reply by saying  that you only meant it as a joke..?. If so, a misguided and cheap one IMHO!

 

You are something of a rather different person with a really thick skin with oddly negative views to match and you get by on here because of the tolerance of the members who believe in free speech and the good control of the site by two outstanding members and associates. You rarely answer a straight question head on and, from personal & private, experience, I am not quite sure that your personal manners measure up either. To summarise--I don't care for you greatly as a person so let's leave it at that. 

 

One word to sum you up Scarlet

 

Xenophobia

[+DoofersDad]

Well, there's another cogently argued post from Laurence.  Laurence, you have recently posted a number of posts which, on the face of them seem simply to be bizarre statements or unrelated apparent facts.  As Scarlet correctly says in his post, people on this forum are supportive of free speech and have been tolerent of you because of that.  If you want anyone to take you seriously do yourself a favour and actually provide a little bit of reasoned argument or offer some view of your own to support your bizarre statements such as:

 

"This isn't a referendum about the qualities of the EU at all.

It is a poll which should be dubbed in the American Western style

 

" Get them there strangers out of town "

 

Yes or No ?"

 

 

and

 

"Democracy does not come cheap. Especially when it is driven by the right wing press"

 

And where on earth do you get the idea that Scarlet is Xenophobic?  I would have thought the fact that he chose to live in a foreign country would suggest he probably wasn't.  Saying he doesn't care for you greatly isn't xenophobic - it's personal.

[Alex MacLeod]

One word to sum up laurence

 

Agitating

[Scarlet Pimple]

Laurence,

I thought I was reasonably well educated until I came in contact with you. Xenophobia was a word I had never really mastered and needed  to look up in the Oxford English dictionary and it means  "someone who actively dislikes foreigners".  Eh what? 

 

DD sums it up perfectly  but how you come to that conclusion is a real mystery? I think you are alluding to the possibility that your English connections are anathema to me as if the Englanders are any different to the Germans, the Irish, the Swedes, Norwegians,

Australians, Italians, Israelies, Syrians, Iranians Spaniards and French whom I have met and have engaged in many an interesting conversation in my travels.

 

And ...oh...the worst of all, the Canajins whom I loathe because they feed me and give me money, allow me to buy cars that, possibly, are better for me than the British ones I used to drive, gave me the opportunity to hike large mountains and ski like a maniac in deep powder, learn to paddle a canoe, run rapids in a raft, fly a Cessna plane from Vancouver to Vancouver Island scared stiff most of the time cos the pilot liked me..... and.... and. They pose a huge threat to my  sense of independence !

A close second would be the Americans since I had 7 cousins in Missouri where they allowed me to visit completely free of charge which seriously offended my Scottish blood. San Diego where I  fell out with my Chinese girlfriend, who took offence when I looked up at the waitress's face when she asked me for  my order at table, and claimed I was winking at her, when in fact it was all the fault of the stye in my eye. which made me blink a lot. Oh and just in case all is not clear, my Dad was born in.....wait....for....it..... Yorkshire.  Doofer's Dad  is English too and understands my challenges,  so why can't you? 

[Laurence]

Laurence,

I thought I was reasonably well educated until I came in contact with you. Xenophobia was a word I had never really mastered and needed  to look up in the Oxford English dictionary and it means  "someone who actively dislikes foreigners".  Eh what? 

 

DD sums it up perfectly  but how you come to that conclusion is a real mystery? I think you are alluding to the possibility that your English connections are anathema to me as if the Englanders are any different to the Germans, the Irish, the Swedes, Norwegians,

Australians, Italians, Israelies, Syrians, Iranians Spaniards and French whom I have met and have engaged in many an interesting conversation in my travels.

 

And ...oh...the worst of all, the Canajins whom I loathe because they feed me and give me money, allow me to buy cars that, possibly, are better for me than the British ones I used to drive, gave me the opportunity to hike large mountains and ski like a maniac in deep powder, learn to paddle a canoe, run rapids in a raft, fly a Cessna plane from Vancouver to Vancouver Island scared stiff most of the time cos the pilot liked me..... and.... and. They pose a huge threat to my  sense of independence !

A close second would be the Americans since I had 7 cousins in Missouri where they allowed me to visit completely free of charge which seriously offended my Scottish blood. San Diego where I  fell out with my Chinese girlfriend, who took offence when I looked up at the waitress's face when she asked me for  my order at table, and claimed I was winking at her, when in fact it was all the fault of the stye in my eye. which made me blink a lot. Oh and just in case all is not clear, my Dad was born in.....wait....for....it..... Yorkshire.  Doofer's Dad  is English too and understands my challenges,  so why can't you? 

 

try Google more definitions  I am sure you are well educated. 

 

I was only answering your unwarranted  personal attack on me. You might say I asked for it, but  speaking as someone who cant view his own post, owing to a banning restriction.  I was making a point to the mods I am not the only one who appears to cross the line.

Sorry you got involved in a vendetta I have ( or more to the point ) with some of the controllers of this web platform, who have a grudge against me for violently opposing secession from the Union.

 

I was neither informed by email , or told in any other way that I cannot  view my own message, never mind answer it.

 

No wonder I think that some people are  Xenophobic in the extreme, that use this web site. There has been a constant undermining of my posts by certain users of this message board by outspoken Nats, they know who they are?. I am willing to call a truce, but I don't think they are. 

 

I refer to a simple request I made about a scoreboard, to which I was subjected to a tirade about my family , my wife, I was scorned beyond belief.

 

I was also told by a teenager to go and live in North career by a teenager, For a man in his seventies that's a bit rude.

 

Later I made a point about the BBC , I was threatened by the author of this web site, no other person to my knowledge , has been subjected nor singled out like me.

 

I came to this part of the world all bright eyed and bushy tailed, I wanted to fit in. 

 

We are all supposed to be brothers supporting the same football team. I use my own name. I so not hide behind non de plume. I wear my heart on my sleeve, quite frankly I don't care , about abuse, but I don't think I should be banned from a post for having a go at the Nats.

[Renegade]

[CaleyD]

One word to sum up laurence

 

Agitating

 

I was thinking....

 

Dinosaur

[Scarlet Pimple]

I've sent you a personal message Laurence. I prefer not to reply here because there is no real need to continue this thread unless you want to.

 

I was unaware of any issues relating to what you say and I feel it is best for me not to get involved. What with  being  bad tempered, and a bit of a nut case a Pimple can't alter his act greatly without adopting an attitude of humility which would only have the effect of being booed off the park and  revealing  his true nature and weaknesses. Deflate a Pimple and what do you have?

The same thing as a deflated football without a lace, only larger and more ugly by far.

 

 It's unfortunate that you feel this way but I am sure  that  with a bit of humour and self-reflection it could be sorted out.

The last time I looked in the mirror another face looked back at me (true story) .The power of his eyes  reduced me to a shivering wreck and I lowered my gaze. When I looked up again I was back. and the other fella was gone. I was  shaken though and consulted with my resident psychiatrist, my car mechanic. "Oh, he says, that was you " then left me to figure out what the heck he was talking about and, frankly, I was too unnerved to ask. Then I got it and was not too pleased 'cos Pimples don't have weaknesses you see.

 

It might work for you too --just  casually look into the mirror  when you are shaving and then .....run like fun.   

[+Fraz]

This threads gone a bit