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Calling The Residents Of Inverness


Kingsmills

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What on earth will it take to persuade you to take a trip to the Longman on a Saturday afternoon ?

 

I know football is a bit on the pricey side but ICT have consistently had the cheapest matchday experience in the top tier.

 

We had to wait over a century before the Scottish League let us join their exclusive little club but now boast the second most successful team in the entire land playing attractive football and unbeaten at home all season.

 

The population of Inverness and surrounding area is at record levels. Surely surely you could abandon the Retail  Park and back our local heroes with more than our loyal core of a paltry two and a half thousand. We used to get those sort of crowds for routine Inverness derbies in the Highland League when the population of the town was not much more than half what it is now.

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Merger.

Cost.

Crap Stadium.

Too far out of town.

Local Sevco/Septic support.

Poor pies.

Cold.

I don't agree with them all personally but most will have an effect to a greater or lesser degree. However these are the reasons people will give for not going.

As for what can be done to persuade people to come? That truly is the million dollar question.

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I think the stadium's a far bigger issue than people realise.  It's a poorly placed, poorly designed mess and not exactly enticing to casual fans home or away.  Unless we redevelop it or move somewhere else, crowds will only go down IMO.

Edited by Renegade
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Hear, Hear! Totally agree, Kingsmills. A timely, call-to-arms!

And I concur with your reckoning that 2,500 is our hardcore fan-base these days.

 

And I think Renegade's spot-on with his observation about the stadium.

 

I stumbled upon an article on the Daily Record website today - regarding our support.

Credit to the author and I apologise if he's a member on here with an alias. I don't mean to plagiarise.

But I'll do it anyway!

 

The article outlines our disappointing crowds with reference to the stadium as a primary factor. (as mentioned above, by Renegade).

There are some other links on that page which have some brilliant articles and insights in to Inverness CT from the perspective of a fan.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/opinion/sport/record-fc-inverness-time-caledonian-4666547

 

If it doesn't work, the text is:

 

Inverness: Is it time the Caledonian Stadium was flattened?

Record FC blogger Paul Irving wonders whether Caley's stadium is holding fans back from coming to watch the team.

 

"ICT have announced a “pay what you like” scheme for the forthcoming game against St Johnstone. This is a nice idea and is one in a line of offers in order to get more people through the turnstiles.

 

The attendance seems to be the flavour of the month around these parts and for good reason. It seems to be a common occurrence now that ICT struggle to get anymore than just over 3,000 to games. Compare that to when we first brought football in the top tier to Inverness in 2005 (remember we played the first half of the season at Pittodrie), where over 4,000 was a regular occurrence and for important matches and those against the Old Firm, crowds were almost always over 7,000.

 

This scheme has obviously been inspired by Albion Rovers who did it last season for a match against Montrose. It worked very well, with 700 in attendance as opposed to the 300 they got for the fixture the last time round. Hopefully Caley Thistle can see a similar upturn in takers.

 

I think where attendances are concerned, there’s is a massive elephant in the room for ICT - the stadium. An ugly, unfinished, poorly placed mess. We’ve got a very open stadium in what must be one of the coldest and windiest places in the town. It’s not rocket science, that when winter comes, it becomes a freezing tundra which isn’t exactly an appetising place for old people and casual fans to spend their afternoon. It’s also so open that any atmosphere is instantly lost, as well as being in a location that is a long walk from the city centre with little public transport nearby.

 

The new stands that were build behind each goal are also quite a distance from the pitch, while the side opposite the Main Stand is essentially wasteland. No stand can ever built there due to gas pipes under the soil, which to move would cost an absolute fortune. Why wasn’t that considered at the time?

 

Many people are quick to point the finger at why crowd numbers are down and there may well be a lot of truth in what they’re saying, but perhaps the poor planning and poor design by the club itself means it should also take some of the blame. If we want to get more people through the turnstiles, we either need to heavily re-develop the Caledonian Stadium or knock it down and go somewhere else. If something like that doesn’t happen, it’s inevitable that crowds will drop to even lower levels than they are now."

Edited by Sneckboy
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For talking sake lets say a wealthy oil baron turned sup and said - I want to buy you a new stadium no strings atrached.

Ok that would be great to redevelop at our current location, with a leaner 4 sided stadium that was tight to the park. Though that doesn't solve the location issue.

Where would we put a new stadium if we were to move it? Even if my oil baron say paid off the council to buy the whole bught area. Do you think planners would allow it to be built there? Not a snowball's chance. They wouldn't even approve a wee microbrewery near town citing 'parking' as the issue. No chance they're allowing something that will be attracting 3k+ of people. Can't put it anywhere near a residential area either as that would be booted out.

So where's the better site? Plus we canne afford any of this anyway lol.

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For me, the biggest issue at present is that there's too many people going around pointing out everything they think is bad and using it as a stick to beat the club when there's not a lot can be done about it.  The worst of which comes from the press and bloggers such as the above who make statements of (so called) fact, but have little or no evidence to back it up.  What chance do the club have of attracting people when "fans" are spouting off like that telling everyone the place is a shit hole?!

 

Maybe the answer is that they try a change of tact by talking up all that is good...and there's plenty...and giving people the reasons to come to games instead of reinforcing whatever reasons they might have for currently not bothering?

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For me, the biggest issue at present is that there's too many people going around pointing out everything they think is bad and using it as a stick to beat the club when there's not a lot can be done about it.  The worst of which comes from the press and bloggers such as the above who make statements of (so called) fact, but have little or no evidence to back it up.  What chance do the club have of attracting people when "fans" are spouting off like that telling everyone the place is a shit hole?!

 

Maybe the answer is that they try a change of tact by talking up all that is good...and there's plenty...and giving people the reasons to come to games instead of reinforcing whatever reasons they might have for currently not bothering?

 

We should, without doubt, talk up the many things that are good but I am not sure that those who speak for the club jumping down the throat or making sarcastic comments about fans with sincere and constructive criticism helps much.

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So where's the better site? Plus we canne afford any of this anyway lol.

 

I saw a post on P&B by a Ross County fan actually who thought that the area between the new uni and the railway line would be a good spot and build a new train station within it.  I don't what that sites like in terms of building a stadium there or the ins and outs of new railways stations but it's a nice idea. There was post a while back on here from a poster who seemed to suggest that the club had looked at relocating to this sort of area in the past, so maybe a new stadium at some stage isn't just a pipe dream.

 

Presume we'd need to find a buyer for the land though.  Were Asda not very close to buying it once?

Edited by Renegade
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Indeed the blogger is an active member of this site and they do have a point as does Fraz.

 

The stadium location has always been a big issue and for every poster who will wax lyrical about the superb view, the picturesque setting, the closeness to the A9 for away fans to get out and down the road, and any manner of other positive things that do exist about our stadium there will be the counter postings about the cold weather and prevailing wind, the farcical car parking and gridlocked transit at game time, the home fans from out of town who cannot get straight back onto the A9 and yes the design itself. All of this is true but not all of it is the club's fault or something they can address.

 

 

Location:

Mr Bannerman will no doubt be able to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's but of the options presented to the club this was really the only viable solution at the time. Torvean, Bught, Carse, or re-using Caley Park or Kingsmills were all really non-starters for various reasons be they logistical, political or financial, and the final two options were Stratton and Longman. Of the two, I personally think this was the better choice. not the best choice ... I would like to have seen Bught or Holm Mills (where the Tesco is) but that would have required a crystal ball to know the ring road would be started and finished as neither were great options transport wise at the time and I remember the council citing that they wanted opposing fans in and out of the town as quickly as possible.  

 

I would also note that in the council local plan a few years ago the area around the TCS was to be at the heart of an entertainment hub that stretched from the harbour all the way round to Allanfearn and down the A9 corridor a bit ..... From what I see only the marina portion of that has come to fruition so far but if that area does ever become the hub of anything then the TCS placement might be regarded as a masterstroke in time !!!

 

Stadium: 

There have been loads of different 'concepts' for the stadium and what we ended up with was not what was originally planned or hoped for. My understanding is that our original model was based on McDiarmid Park, albeit a smaller version, which in the end would have seen us with a cosy low profile single tier 4 stand stadium but finances and cost over-runs before the thing was ever built mean we ended up starting life with the single main stand which also ended up being a bit bigger than intended to accommodate everything that was wanted in the original design. There have been numerous plans to adjust what we had but until SPL football came along and Tulloch/Sutherland put the effort in to get us the North and South stands we didn't have the wherewithal to get it done !  It is a beautiful location, and very picturesque but bloody freezing if there is a bite to the wind so both points of view have merit!

 

Car Parking / Gridlock:

I think this is a far bigger issue than many people realise. Not the idea of paying a few quid to park but the total disorganisation in both parking and getting out, not to mention every car in the home end being forced to turn left out of the stadium and rapidly filling the longer and smaller of the two roads towards town beyond its natural capacity. I understand why we dont tar the car park and the ensuing chaos that entails with all the ruts, potholes and puddles (no tax paid on a muddy field apparently), but for the life of me I dont understand why the police insist on all traffic being segregated. Do we really have that big a problem with opposing fans mixing? Why subject potential fans to a 30 minute journey back to town when they could get out the A9 way in about 5! If there is an issue for certain games/clubs then fair enough, but are we policing a situation that simply doesn't exist for most games? If the road to/from the match were not jammed up then it is possible you could engage the bus companies to add a regular stop outside the stadium on one or more routes ..... if they know their schedule is not going to get hammered and the potential is there for a few (hundred) extra customers then it makes sense.     

   

 

As Fraz says ... even if we did have some Oligarch, Oil Baron, or tech billionaire footing the bill where would we put it now? where would be the ideal spot that the next generation wont come back and say we were all fools? We dont own the stadium, we dont own the land (leased for another 79 years approximately) and nowhere will be perfect for everyone ......    

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Kingsmills and others are right, we desperately need new ideas that will attract new fans to TCS to watch what might be the one and only season that Inverness has a stellar team capable of mounting a sustained challenge at the League and who knows, a cup. ICTFC and CJT have tried - not always with the greatest of publicity - to get people through the doors. To do it you attract people by accentuating the positives, laying out the reasons that people should come down. It's hard to get that message across outwith CTO, but we keep trying. And then someone with access to mainstream nationwide media comes up with that above. I can see why Caley D is frustrated by it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but just detailing a list of reasons not to come and suggesting the cure is a new stadium which we could neither site nor afford doesn't help. Please support the pay what you want/ can initiative. Use it as a means to bring someone with you who doesn't normally come. Organise a minibus or a taxi from your local. Get your kids along. All it takes to increase crowds is not building an unachievable new stadium, it's individuals using their influence. 500 extra people every game would make the difference, and I'll make sure that I bring along a couple. How's about you?

PS: The pies aren't that bad are they!?

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The club should commission some proper research on this. Fund a marketing student's PHD at a university for a year or something. Otherwise things will continue as they are and no amount of forum posts will change that.

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Gaelic is part of Scotland's heritage and should be supported to an extent, however, the funding given to it is disproportionate - 99% of the population of Scotland consider it to be alien. There are more Polish speakers!

 

Similarly, shinty (apologies to Charles Bannerman), is something of a relic nowadays - it doesn't 'capture the imagination' of the public. The Camanachd Association are again thinking of a 'league reconstruction' in an attempt to keep it relevant.

 

Is Inverness such a hot-bed of cricket that it needs TWO teams!? Both, if there must be two, should play at Fraser Park in Kingsmills Road.

The Northern Meeting Park could then be used for Inverness City FC's games - a progressive club - yet it would still be available for Craig Hill's annual Hogmany sickfest.

 

Shinty in Inverness is genuinely of such poor calibre, that nobody would even notice if they nipped across to the Queen's Park to hit their balls inside the running track!

Inverness have an 'American Football Team'? Inverness Dolphins or Ness Monsters or something? Okay, dudes - go play your 'football' at Millburn or Charleston - they'll be happy to book you - you both 'win'.

 

Inverness & District Amateur League's summer games could be held on the Culloden pitches or other available sites such as North Kessock, Avoch, Ardersier, Maryburgh, Farr, Cubokie etc.

 

The Bught would then be available! A central location. 

 

Bulldoze the pitches! Not sure if the current small wooden stand is 'listed' or not. It could be utilised if needed - a players' gym, a fans' snack bar - a pub!?

Nevertheless, could we plan for a small, 4-sided stadium with 8,000 capacity - over the huge expansed of the remaining Bught area. 

There would be acres to build a car and bus parking area. The planned crossing from the Lochardil/Holm area to Torvean/Kinmylies would obviously help with traffic.

 

I'm probably in cloud-cuckoo-land, but I'm certain that a Bught Park venue would attract more fans than the Longman. It certainly wouldn't attract any less!

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Mr Bannerman will no doubt be able to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's but of the options presented to the club this was really the only viable solution at the time.

Not many additional dots and crosses to be made there since in my view Scotty's appraisal is pretty well bang on. Anyone who wants a detailed account of why the club went to East Longman can find it on this site where "Against All Odds" is published online and it's mainly Chapter 8 - "Finding A Home". The only option which ran East Longman close was Stratton Farm and after the mother of all debates between the club and INE, East Longman it was. Back in 1996 I read Bruce Hare's study of possible stadium sites in entirety and my main conclusion was that Inverness didn't have much to offer.

In the case of the stadium itself, the £1.3 million road demanded by the planners forced wholesale economies and hence substantial compromises on the building itself. The original East Longman scheme also included training facilities on site (there's an illustration in the book) but this had to be abandoned. I think the football side has actually suffered quite a lot by having to trek daily out to Fort George.

Traffic considerations.;... I think this is a major one and has become a lot worse in recent years. The Kessock Bridge roundabout has become a disaster and I do believe that traffic issues are now keeping a number of people away, but this is just one of several factors, some related and others not related to the club, which are conspiring against attendances.

It should also be said that you can compare like with like over the last decade and numbers coming to watch SPL/Premiership football (ie effectively the same product) have steadily declined.

Finally, just in case Dougal is queueing in the wings to make his predictable contribution.... we all, of course ,completely accept that, of the six hundred who used to attend Kingsmills/Telford Street pre merger, six thousand refuse to come to the TCS :laugh:

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Gaelic is part of Scotland's heritage and should be supported to an extent, however, the funding given to it is disproportionate - 99% of the population of Scotland consider it to be alien. There are more Polish speakers!

 

Similarly, shinty (apologies to Charles Bannerman), is something of a relic nowadays - it doesn't 'capture the imagination' of the public. The Camanachd Association are again thinking of a 'league reconstruction' in an attempt to keep it relevant.

 

Is Inverness such a hot-bed of cricket that it needs TWO teams!? Both, if there must be two, should play at Fraser Park in Kingsmills Road.

The Northern Meeting Park could then be used for Inverness City FC's games - a progressive club - yet it would still be available for Craig Hill's annual Hogmany sickfest.

 

Shinty in Inverness is genuinely of such poor calibre, that nobody would even notice if they nipped across to the Queen's Park to hit their balls inside the running track!

Inverness have an 'American Football Team'? Inverness Dolphins or Ness Monsters or something? Okay, dudes - go play your 'football' at Millburn or Charleston - they'll be happy to book you - you both 'win'.

 

Inverness & District Amateur League's summer games could be held on the Culloden pitches or other available sites such as North Kessock, Avoch, Ardersier, Maryburgh, Farr, Cubokie etc.

 

The Bught would then be available! A central location. 

 

Bulldoze the pitches! Not sure if the current small wooden stand is 'listed' or not. It could be utilised if needed - a players' gym, a fans' snack bar - a pub!?

Nevertheless, could we plan for a small, 4-sided stadium with 8,000 capacity - over the huge expansed of the remaining Bught area. 

There would be acres to build a car and bus parking area. The planned crossing from the Lochardil/Holm area to Torvean/Kinmylies would obviously help with traffic.

 

I'm probably in cloud-cuckoo-land, but I'm certain that a Bught Park venue would attract more fans than the Longman. It certainly wouldn't attract any less!

I'm not going to rise to the bait there :laugh: but I don't think shinty has ever attempted to hold the public limelight to the extent that football does - albeit with much more difficulty these days. However you will find extensive areas of the country such as Lochaber, Argyll and Badenoch where shinty is the mainstream activity and football is marginalised and indeed sometimes frowned upon. Note that none of these three areas is reputed for its excellence in football. The shinty league reconstruction is actually a more complex issue than suggested, but not appropriate for detailed discussion here.

The Queens Park does not even have a large enough infield for football, never mind shinty.

As for cricket and the Meeting Park, in my Highland News column I have repeatedly called for Inverness's two cricket teams to groundshare at Fraser Park so the major facility of the Meeting Park can be used more efficiently for something else - possibly Inverness City. Or maybe they could put American Football to the Meeting Park and hold cricket matches during the time-outs :lol:

However I have never seen the Bught as an appropriate area fo a Premiership football ground. For a start the traffic flow is just about as bad there as it is at East Longman.

 

Finally, I have for some time been right with PumpFake on the UHI suggestion. It would take more than a year, but a PhD thesis on habits, practices and attitudes with respect to attendance at football matches seems like a very good idea. I have to say that the possibility of doing this myself as a mature student did briefly wander through my head a few years ago but I have too much else on!

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Does anyone actually know by how much the home attendances have dropped. I know that in the earlier days of novelty factor there were far bigger away supports travelling up and these have dropped off considerably.

 

Aren't the football fans being a bit selfish towards other sports and interests that take up people's time? I dont believe we are going to increase gates by suggesting that other sports should be given less consideration and, indeed, believe thats more likely to alienate those who might be persuaded.

 

The current stadium was built where it was for a variety of reasons, not least financial ones, and no amount of bleating on here or in the central belt news media is going to give us something to satisfy everyone without the money to do so.

 

All that aside I see football in Scotland as being on the decline as the number 1 spectator sport. All clubs are losing fans yet the powers that be are doing nothing to address that. Are the SFA / SPFL doing anything? Are the clubs getting together to address the problems? No. They cant seem to see the problems. For a lot of people its not all financial. Its not all location. Nor car parking, pies, or whatever. For many its the matchday experience, the stewarding, the bias towards two teams, the changes to k.o times to suit TV. Basically many, and I include myself to an extent, are sick of the establishment that run the game and the Glasgow two who control it. Sort that aspect of the game and we'll probably sort the crowd numbers.

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I've said it before and i'll say it again...

The Longman campus will be getting bulldozed in 2 years time and therefore that space will be freed up. This will be the most perfect area for a new stadium imho.

I reckon the majority of People are desperate to have a stadium which is closer to the city centre. That site is what, 5/10 mins walk from town? And imagine the boost it would have to the local economy and how it would help thrive what is sadly becoming a dilapitated City centre when 2k sevconians, cellic, aberdeen, hertz and c*unty fans turn up 5/6 times a season.

And then imagine a 7000 seater-4 sided stadium which was close to the pitch (st mirren esque) the place would be a cauldron ;) and a better match day experience will certainly mean a better attendance!

I honestly can't believe no-one else has thought about this.

Instead we all seem to still have our fingers up our ars*s talking about Bught park or Torvean Quarry(LOL) when it is very veerry clear that a stadium will never be possible in those locations due to poor infrastructure etc.

If we as fansand a club are really serious about having a stadium that is close to the city centre, i reckon this is a great chance which ought to be seized! If not, i honestly can't ever see a another opportunity!

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Lets get real the club don't own the stadium and with the crowds we are getting and little money coming in how are we going to buy another site like the Longman Campus which is a prime business site?  The fans are reducing in numbers at all SPL clubs that says it all!  People will give any excuse for not going like the location, car park and to cold,  FFS it is Scotland you are and if you are sitting for an hour and a half you will be cold.  Most people now would rather sit in a bar or at home and watch football on TV.  Rant over.

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For me, the biggest issue at present is that there's too many people going around pointing out everything they think is bad and using it as a stick to beat the club when there's not a lot can be done about it.  The worst of which comes from the press and bloggers such as the above who make statements of (so called) fact, but have little or no evidence to back it up.  What chance do the club have of attracting people when "fans" are spouting off like that telling everyone the place is a shit hole?!

 

Maybe the answer is that they try a change of tact by talking up all that is good...and there's plenty...and giving people the reasons to come to games instead of reinforcing whatever reasons they might have for currently not bothering?

 

We should, without doubt, talk up the many things that are good but I am not sure that those who speak for the club jumping down the throat or making sarcastic comments about fans with sincere and constructive criticism helps much.

 

 

I no more speak for the club than you speak for CTO.  My views and opinions are entirely my own and when passing on (or requesting) info as requested by ICTFC I always seek to make that entirely clear...pretty much the identical situation you find yourself in as a moderator on this site.

 

In regards to my earlier post, I can assure you that I intended no sarcasm.  That blog does NOTHING to help the club or assist in getting more people through the gates. It's only likely to achieve the exact opposite and given the author is a "fan" then I would class it as being more renegade than sincere.

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Does anyone actually know by how much the home attendances have dropped. I know that in the earlier days of novelty factor there were far bigger away supports travelling up and these have dropped off considerably.

 

I think it may have been Doofers Dad who met with Kenny Cameron about this subject the last time the topic was being scrutinised on the forum so he may have more to add on the point.

 

In brief, I think the situation for last season was something like......big drop in visiting fan numbers, and, home fan numbers being fairly static (over the season) although the split between season ticket holders and walk-ups had changed.  Would appear from info to hand that it's probably much the same this season.

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Say we double our attendances to 6000. We are now a similar sized club to Dundee United. What benefits does this have? They have as good a team as us currently despite paying more wages. They have the same glass ceiling as us - 2nd in the league and the odd chance at a cup win. So if our crowds double then it will likely have no tangible on-field benefits.

 

Why are we so obsessed with crowds when we are not in any debt and it doesn't negatively impact us in any way? Yeah, our players may leave because we can't pay them enough, but is that not the same with clubs like United, Hearts etc. as well?  If an English Championship team comes calling the player will be off regardless if we're paying him £1500 a week facilitated by a crowd of 3,000 or £4,000 a week facilitated by a crowd of 6,000. Unless we start suddenly averaging attendances of 15,000 then we have no chance of moving up a level from where we are now. Enjoy watching ICT for what it is, and stop feeling insecure about how many people you are sharing the experience with.

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Say we double our attendances to 6000. We are now a similar sized club to Dundee United. What benefits does this have? They have as good a team as us currently despite paying more wages. They have the same glass ceiling as us - 2nd in the league and the odd chance at a cup win. So if our crowds double then it will likely have no tangible on-field benefits.

 

Why are we so obsessed with crowds when we are not in any debt and it doesn't negatively impact us in any way? Yeah, our players may leave because we can't pay them enough, but is that not the same with clubs like United, Hearts etc. as well?  If an English Championship team comes calling the player will be off regardless if we're paying him £1500 a week facilitated by a crowd of 3,000 or £4,000 a week facilitated by a crowd of 6,000. Unless we start suddenly averaging attendances of 15,000 then we have no chance of moving up a level from where we are now. Enjoy watching ICT for what it is, and stop feeling insecure about how many people you are sharing the experience with.

Do you not think thats a bit of a kick it the teeth to the efforts of the club who are creating deals to lure more people in. With that logic I suppose the club dont need shareholders either.

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Say we double our attendances to 6000. We are now a similar sized club to Dundee United. What benefits does this have? They have as good a team as us currently despite paying more wages. They have the same glass ceiling as us - 2nd in the league and the odd chance at a cup win. So if our crowds double then it will likely have no tangible on-field benefits.

 

Why are we so obsessed with crowds when we are not in any debt and it doesn't negatively impact us in any way? Yeah, our players may leave because we can't pay them enough, but is that not the same with clubs like United, Hearts etc. as well?  If an English Championship team comes calling the player will be off regardless if we're paying him £1500 a week facilitated by a crowd of 3,000 or £4,000 a week facilitated by a crowd of 6,000. Unless we start suddenly averaging attendances of 15,000 then we have no chance of moving up a level from where we are now. Enjoy watching ICT for what it is, and stop feeling insecure about how many people you are sharing the experience with.

Do you not think thats a bit of a kick it the teeth to the efforts of the club who are creating deals to lure more people in. With that logic I suppose the club dont need shareholders either.

 

I'm not saying that the club shouldn't be trying to attract more fans - it can only be a good thing to increase the fan base. More money can lead to stadium improvements etc. I just think the issue gets more discussion on this forum than it's worth and ultimately increasing attendances is not as vital as some people make out for the club's future.

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But the weather is much more settled and less cold in the summer isn't it? So, before any of the above suggestions are  given serious consideration, is it not just as smart to demand Summer Football from the beaks now.

 

Are the beaks doing anything about bringing Summer football to the Premiership, or all the leagues? Sure--they are holding meetings ...and meetings but I have never read or heard a thing about doing anything about it .

 

Are there any known moves afoot by the clubs working together to demand this?

 

ICT management and the Manager are doing their darndest to provide an above average product so they deserve the right to ...at the very least....try it out. Then the whole family, including the whining and reluctant bairns, can participate.

 

And for that we also need some form of games or entertainment for the families at half time. Otherwise I am going to go into a dwam of frustration and then clinical depression or something? Changes must be rung or the future is bleak.

 

So I say ..TRY IT.

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