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I know New Zealand television is renowned for being appalling but it seems in this case that their news reporting isn't just out of touch, but on a completely different planet. 

 

Yes I know what you mean Renegade.  However a lot of the reporting and film has been sourced from the U.K. with many of the pieces being presented and commentated upon by people with Scottish accents. Some of the material is from Australia.

 

If my memory serves me right Scottish television was always pretty appalling as well.  Has it improved that much in your estimation?

 

Reports are now coming through that individuals are being suspended from the SNP for their violent behaviour.  Is this happening on another Planet or in Scotland?

 

I have lived in six different countries in my life time and Scottish Television has to rate amongst the worst I have experienced.

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Again the reports are inaccurate. Two well known individuals who have made a habit of following Jim Murphy and rudely and very vocally disrupting his meetings who were until yesterday among the 114,00

Achtung! I actually find it hilarious listening to to the British nationalists continually bleating about the referendum, which they won FFS, and how it's all the SNP are interested in. It goes s

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Then in the letters page a correspondent recounts how, in 1942 when Scottish regiments were fighting Fascism across the world, the SNP held a "rowdy" (sic!) debate before deciding to oppose the war against Hitler which, they concluded, was being fought for the benefit of the "English rich".

Yes, I read that letter - and found it lacking in much historical accuracy (I've been reading the archives from that exact period, as it happens.)

At worst, if you are determined to press on with this kind of smear, you could cite the case of Douglas Young, defended by his son in the following letter:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/snp-s-young-no-conscientious-objector-1-2556537

Project Smear?

 

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I know New Zealand television is renowned for being appalling but it seems in this case that their news reporting isn't just out of touch, but on a completely different planet. 

 

Yes I know what you mean Renegade.  However a lot of the reporting and film has been sourced from the U.K. with many of the pieces being presented and commentated upon by people with Scottish accents. Some of the material is from Australia.

 

If my memory serves me right Scottish television was always pretty appalling as well.  Has it improved that much in your estimation?

 

Reports are now coming through that individuals are being suspended from the SNP for their violent behaviour.  Is this happening on another Planet or in Scotland?

 

I have lived in six different countries in my life time and Scottish Television has to rate amongst the worst I have experienced.

 

 

Many of the biggest liars in the UK are men with Scottish accents, culduthel....Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy, Alistair Darling, Alistair Carmichael, Jim Naughtie Glen Campbell. Gary Robertson, to name a few.........although the last three tend more to spin, omit and misrepresent than downright lie.

 

Two party members have been suspended, afaik, but only pending an investigation of the incident. Until they were identified, they weren't known to be SNP members, btw.   The heid bummers in SNP HQ, don't know personally every one of 100,000+ members, any more than the other parties could identify most of theirs from a photo or video.   I think they were all numpties, including those two SNP members, but they did no more than heckle Murphy in a megaphones at dawn type of duel. There was no violent behaviour however the papers and TV decided to spin it. 

 

In case you aren't anti-wings on principle.....here's a link below to the kind of information which should be investigated before a decision about their membership (though personally, I'd dunt the pair of them anyway just for being so brain-dead stupid as to let themselves be manipulated into providing more opportunity for another couple of days of the media and Murphy screaming SNP BAD (or words to that effect)). It is all getting very wearing.  Roll on Thursday!

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-safety-of-the-town/

 

Funnily enough there are examples of as bad and a lot worse here http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-side-of-the-thugs/ , which could not be spun as SNP BAD, because it was the SNP or Yes Voters on the receiving end so hardly got a mention anywhere...nobody was suspended from any party and nobody was asked to condemn the actions of people over whom they had no control just because they were unionists.    Double standards d'you think?

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I know New Zealand television is renowned for being appalling but it seems in this case that their news reporting isn't just out of touch, but on a completely different planet. 

 

Yes I know what you mean Renegade.  However a lot of the reporting and film has been sourced from the U.K. with many of the pieces being presented and commentated upon by people with Scottish accents. Some of the material is from Australia.

 

If my memory serves me right Scottish television was always pretty appalling as well.  Has it improved that much in your estimation?

 

Reports are now coming through that individuals are being suspended from the SNP for their violent behaviour.  Is this happening on another Planet or in Scotland?

 

I have lived in six different countries in my life time and Scottish Television has to rate amongst the worst I have experienced.

 

 

As I've never been to New Zealand I don't have experience of it first hand, but I have been led to believe in the past that it is pretty awful and those who have been tell me that New Zealand is even worse than Australian television.  Now I do have experience of the latter.  Is Scottish television better than Australian?  Absolutely.  Does that make it likely better still than New Zealand TV?  Most likely.

 

As Oddquine says, I've also heard no reports of violence.  The last time I checked, no one had ever been injured by heckling.  And taking up arms and all the rest of it?  Rubbish.

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Alex, I'd hoped we'd seen the last of fag packet economics on Sep 18. For a start you don't appear to have allowed for the tax exempt personal allowamce making about 40% of the average wage non-taxable. Nor, of course, do you allow for how much of this might be recouped through higher rates. And although 12 billion seems a large number in absolute terms, you fail to give us the vital comparison of how big this is compared with the UK whole.

Sorry Charles. I've just discovered that HMRC must have used the same fag packet. Please note income tax figure attributed to Scotland for 13/14 = 11.3 billion and total tax = 38.5 billion. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359890/disag-method.pdf

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:laugh:  :wave:  :canada:  :scotland:

 

Our general election is in October. Reading this to tune up .......

 

I see that Alberta has just had its provincial election.

 

According to a right wing Canadian connection of mine's comment on FB "The Province of Alberta has just crashed and burned". Maybe too many of Scots descent in Alberta. :wink:

 

I'm assuming from that  the NDP is more social democratic than the PC is?  Is there such an animal as a Progressive Conservative anyway?

 

It is however interesting to see the reaction of right-wingers to the idea of a more left wing government.....wonder if the rhetoric will be as bad as it is in the UK? 

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Alex, I'd hoped we'd seen the last of fag packet economics on Sep 18. For a start you don't appear to have allowed for the tax exempt personal allowamce making about 40% of the average wage non-taxable. Nor, of course, do you allow for how much of this might be recouped through higher rates. And although 12 billion seems a large number in absolute terms, you fail to give us the vital comparison of how big this is compared with the UK whole.

Sorry Charles. I've just discovered that HMRC must have used the same fag packet. Please note income tax figure attributed to Scotland for 13/14 = 11.3 billion and total tax = 38.5 billion. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359890/disag-method.pdf

 

The difference being that HMRC's figure is the product of the real situation which allows, on the minus side, for the personal allowance not being taxable and, on the plus side, for some larger earners having some of their income taxed at the higher rate. If that roughly coincides with what you get by multiplying the workforce by the average wage by some ballpark guesstimate of 20%, then that is merely an apparent result of the coincidence that the abovementioned plus and minus sides happen to cancel each other out.

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Charles, there is one fundamental difference between now and the 1930's you choose to continually harp on about. Nowadays the people are more informed and more educated about politics. Nowadays the political parties are, in general, more open and honest on their policies. Nowadays the people are able to make learned judgement and are making choices based on that judgement and not on coersion.

Looking at some of the people who have been roaming about on behalf of the SNP since before the referendum, one would tend to doubt that.

Basically, the SNP's main recruitment strategy has been to radicalise and instil a perception of grievance within the nation's have-nots - with predicatable consequences out on the streets.

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Reports are now coming through that individuals are being suspended from the SNP for their violent behaviour.  Is this happening on another Planet or in Scotland ?

 

Again the reports are inaccurate. Two well known individuals who have made a habit of following Jim Murphy and rudely and very vocally disrupting his meetings who were until yesterday among the 114,000 or so members of the SNP have been suspended for such conduct. There was boorish, vocal and frankly disrespectful behaviour which has been condemned and quickly and properly dealt with. There was no violence. If there had been violence the police, who were in attendance, would have got involved.

 

I stand to be corrected but, as far as I am aware, the only criminal prosecutions arising out of the referendum and general election campaigns were of a number of aggressive individuals bearing Union and Red Hand of Ulster flags who gathered in Glasgow's George Square on the morning after the referendum vote.

 

I rather suspect that these individuals were neither Yes voters or SNP supporters.

 

There is a debate to be had and reasoned and articulate posters, who I happen to disagree with but hold considered and legitimate views, Doofers Dad being a good example, are having it.

 

Far too many others are just engaging in slavering and unfounded Nat bashing to the extent of comparing a political party which, never in it's 80+ years of history has engaged in anything other than responsible and peaceful engagement with the democratic process with the most reviled and evil regime in history. That is not just an insult to the SNP but to compare the current political situation to the horrors which befell continental Europe 70 years ago is a gross insult to the memory of all those millions upon millions of victims of that regime.

 

The cause of Scottish Nationalism has been fought long and passionately but not a drop of blood has been spilt. Of that we can be rightly proud. Those who resort to analogies with Nazi Germany should hang their heads in shame.

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Alex, I'd hoped we'd seen the last of fag packet economics on Sep 18. For a start you don't appear to have allowed for the tax exempt personal allowamce making about 40% of the average wage non-taxable. Nor, of course, do you allow for how much of this might be recouped through higher rates. And although 12 billion seems a large number in absolute terms, you fail to give us the vital comparison of how big this is compared with the UK whole.

Sorry Charles. I've just discovered that HMRC must have used the same fag packet. Please note income tax figure attributed to Scotland for 13/14 = 11.3 billion and total tax = 38.5 billion. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359890/disag-method.pdf

 

The difference being that HMRC's figure is the product of the real situation which allows, on the minus side, for the personal allowance not being taxable and, on the plus side, for some larger earners having some of their income taxed at the higher rate. If that roughly coincides with what you get by multiplying the workforce by the average wage by some ballpark guesstimate of 20%, then that is merely an apparent result of the coincidence that the abovementioned plus and minus sides happen to cancel each other out.

 

Charles I dont need a lecture from an ex schoolteacher on economics. Just admit I'm close to being right and that you are not and never will be some superior being with all the answers.

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The Scotsman website advises that a speech by Nick Clegg to party activists in East Dumbartonshire was interrupted by a passing jogger shouting 'come on the SNP'. Disturbing echos of the conduct of followers of Atilla The Hun in the fifth century.

 

Sure to be the lead item on Antipodean TV channels this evening.

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I think myself in any rerun of the election if it comes to that, people with have to decide if they are red or blue and stop pissing about with minor parties.

 

Actually Larry, people in Inverness and the rest of the Highlands aren't not voting for the two big parties just for a laugh.  This traditionally always been a Liberal/LibDem stronghold and has been for decades.  We've only elected one MP from what is now part of the two main parties since 1959.

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I think myself in any rerun of the election if it comes to that, people with have to decide if they are red or blue and stop pissing about with minor parties.

 

Actually Larry, people in Inverness and the rest of the Highlands aren't not voting for the two big parties just for a laugh.  This traditionally always been a Liberal/LibDem stronghold and has been for decades.  We've only elected one MP from what is now part of the two main parties since 1959.

 

Correct. Up until 1959 the North (in common with much of the rest of Scotland) was fairly Tory but 1964 saw a big Liberal breakthrough with Russell Johnston in Inverness, George Mackie in Caithness and Sutherland and I think a guy called Alastair MacKenzie in Ross shire. Since then the area has been pretty solidly Lib(Dem), with once conspicuous exception being David Stewart for Labour in Inverness from 1997-2005.

The big anomaly was that, long before the SNP's recent breakthrough, the only politician in Britain with less charisma than Ed Miliband - Feckless Fergus Ewing - won Inverness for the SNP in the Holyrood elections a while ago. It was a wee bit like Eddie The Eagle landing Olympic gold.

But in 24 hours time, it's pretty clear that there will, in common with the rest of Scotland, be a big swathe of SNP territory up here.

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My final word on this thread, at least until after the polls close, is an entirely non partisan one.

 

The right to vote is a precious jewel. Universal sufferage did not come easily and was granted grudgingly only as the result of huge sacrifices made by brave men and even more courageous women some of whom paid the ultimate price.

 

However you intend to vote, please do so even if you feel your chosen candidate has little or no chance of winning. Not to do so would be to do those courageous souls who fought long and hard to give you that right a great disservice.  

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 Universal sufferage

Well here's hoping that whatever happens they get a result that can produce a sustainable government. Beacuse if they don't and we have to have another General election in between now and the 2016 Scottish elections, that would create not universal sufferage(*) but universal suffering!!!!

 

(*) - I thought about taking my turn to be a pedant, since the actual spelling is "suffrage", from the Latin noun "suffragium" meaning a vote. But under the circumstances, I'm going to go with Kingsmills' spelling, given the potential for suffering all this incessant politics is creating. :cry:  

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I think myself in any rerun of the election if it comes to that, people with have to decide if they are red or blue and stop pissing about with minor parties.

 

Actually Larry, people in Inverness and the rest of the Highlands aren't not voting for the two big parties just for a laugh.  This traditionally always been a Liberal/LibDem stronghold and has been for decades.  We've only elected one MP from what is now part of the two main parties since 1959.

 

Correct. Up until 1959 the North (in common with much of the rest of Scotland) was fairly Tory but 1964 saw a big Liberal breakthrough with Russell Johnston in Inverness, George Mackie in Caithness and Sutherland and I think a guy called Alastair MacKenzie in Ross shire. Since then the area has been pretty solidly Lib(Dem), with once conspicuous exception being David Stewart for Labour in Inverness from 1997-2005.

The big anomaly was that, long before the SNP's recent breakthrough, the only politician in Britain with less charisma than Ed Miliband - Feckless Fergus Ewing - won Inverness for the SNP in the Holyrood elections a while ago. It was a wee bit like Eddie The Eagle landing Olympic gold.

But in 24 hours time, it's pretty clear that there will, in common with the rest of Scotland, be a big swathe of SNP territory up here.

 

 

Not quite.  George Mackie only held the Caithness and Sutherland seat for two years, and lost it to the Labour candidate Robert Maclennan in 1966.

 

In a total of 5 elections: 1966, 1970, Feb 1974, Oct 1974, and 1979, Maclennan won the seat for Labour.  It only went Social Democrat when Maclennan held the seat in 1983, having defected.

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I think myself in any rerun of the election if it comes to that, people with have to decide if they are red or blue and stop pissing about with minor parties.

 

Actually Larry, people in Inverness and the rest of the Highlands aren't not voting for the two big parties just for a laugh.  This traditionally always been a Liberal/LibDem stronghold and has been for decades.  We've only elected one MP from what is now part of the two main parties since 1959.

 

Correct. Up until 1959 the North (in common with much of the rest of Scotland) was fairly Tory but 1964 saw a big Liberal breakthrough with Russell Johnston in Inverness, George Mackie in Caithness and Sutherland and I think a guy called Alastair MacKenzie in Ross shire. Since then the area has been pretty solidly Lib(Dem), with once conspicuous exception being David Stewart for Labour in Inverness from 1997-2005.

The big anomaly was that, long before the SNP's recent breakthrough, the only politician in Britain with less charisma than Ed Miliband - Feckless Fergus Ewing - won Inverness for the SNP in the Holyrood elections a while ago. It was a wee bit like Eddie The Eagle landing Olympic gold.

But in 24 hours time, it's pretty clear that there will, in common with the rest of Scotland, be a big swathe of SNP territory up here.

 

 

Not quite.  George Mackie only held the Caithness and Sutherland seat for two years, and lost it to the Labour candidate Robert Maclennan in 1966.

 

In a total of 5 elections: 1966, 1970, Feb 1974, Oct 1974, and 1979, Maclennan won the seat for Labour.  It only went Social Democrat when Maclennan held the seat in 1983, having defected.

 

Well remembered Padrino. I'd forgotten about MacLennan who seemed to be a pretty decent bloke. (I did cover my backside by saying '"pretty" solidly' because there was bound to be one that I forgot.)  However I think we can still pretty safely say that a "pretty strong" Lib(Dem) tradition in the Highlands since the 1964 election (the first I remember with any clarity) could well be under significant threat today.

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Charles, there is one fundamental difference between now and the 1930's you choose to continually harp on about. Nowadays the people are more informed and more educated about politics. Nowadays the political parties are, in general, more open and honest on their policies. Nowadays the people are able to make learned judgement and are making choices based on that judgement and not on coersion.

Looking at some of the people who have been roaming about on behalf of the SNP since before the referendum, one would tend to doubt that.

Basically, the SNP's main recruitment strategy has been to radicalise and instil a perception of grievance within the nation's have-nots - with predicatable consequences out on the streets.

 

 

It seems like it is a good thing to have ordinary people engaged in politics. The "have-nots" or the "underclass" as you patronizingly put it have as much right to participate in politics as anyone else. Maybe the days of people tugging their forelocks to their supposed superiors are finally ending, and any true democrat would welcome that.

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It seems like it is a good thing to have ordinary people engaged in politics. The "have-nots" or the "underclass" as you patronizingly put it have as much right to participate in politics as anyone else. Maybe the days of people tugging their forelocks to their supposed superiors are finally ending, and any true democrat would welcome that.

 

I would have to say that I am sufficiently sceptical about politicians of ALL persuasions to have concern that success in politics often goes to whoever fares best at cynically deluding those least well placed to understand the issues.

 

It would be on hearing appeals for Paddy Power to be devolved to Holyrood that I would really start worrying.

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 Up until 1959 the North (in common with much of the rest of Scotland) was fairly Tory but 1964 saw a big Liberal breakthrough with Russell Johnston in Inverness, George Mackie in Caithness and Sutherland and I think a guy called Alastair MacKenzie in Ross shire. 

 

Speaking of which....

post-50-0-91173400-1431019896.jpg

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Confession time, that pic isn't actually from Dingwall.  In fact it isn't even in Scotland, which should be fairly obvious to anyone who has cast their vote today given that this polling station doesn't have the obligatory SNP mob outside. What's that all about, why can't people be allowed to vote in peace?

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It seems like it is a good thing to have ordinary people engaged in politics. The "have-nots" or the "underclass" as you patronizingly put it have as much right to participate in politics as anyone else. Maybe the days of people tugging their forelocks to their supposed superiors are finally ending, and any true democrat would welcome that.

I would have to say that I am sufficiently sceptical about politicians of ALL persuasions to have concern that success in politics often goes to whoever fares best at cynically deluding those least well placed to understand the issues.

 

It would be on hearing appeals for Paddy Power to be devolved to Holyrood that I would really start worrying.

Such skepticism is no doubt well founded but it does not follow that the poor or the "have-nots" are intellectually inferior to the more privileged in society, far from it.

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Oddquine--

 

For once you have lost me with your obscure comments about the Alberta, Canada election. Did your pal tell you the rest of the saga though.?

 

This was a Provincial election, not a General Election, in a Province which has had a conservative Government for 40 consecutive years and is the wealthiest Province in Canada (or WAS!!!!). Isn't that a recipe for complacency or what?

So the provincial Conservatives  finally shot themselves in the foot,  what with using the provincial coffers as a slush fund for their own personal use, and the last Government making bad decisions with regard to spending and policies seemingly based on the assumption that the oil revenue would last for ever and that the millions that used to be in funds specifically sidelined for future  projects could be spent unwisely and at random or had already been squandered on stuff that never came to fruition.Then the price of oil dropped like a stone and the chickens came home to rest with a vengeance. 

The net result is that the place is in a shambles financially and politically and the populace rose up en masse and threw out the conservatives by decimating them down to only 5 seats forcing their leader to resign and his political career, either local or Canadian, is stated by the pundits to now be over. 

 

The new leader is an aggressive, down-to-earth, woman lawyer who  has the big challenge of having to work with, and train, many rookies who were never expected to get elected and, at this time, must be in a state of shock having no political experience whatsoever. So the voters have decided that  taking a big chance to achieve change is the only way to go now and the devil tak the hindmost. 

If this new, female Albertan leader does an outstanding job by appeasing the panic in the oil patch from hearing that they will now have to pay higher royalties to the Provincial Government and also stabilize the ship , then watch out for her to go full out for the Prime Minister of the land after another 4 years assuming that the National Democratic Party wins our General Election in October 2015,.

 

This huge, totally unexpected, win for the NDP has left the country  in total shock and our national Prime Minister must be calling out for the smelling salts because, sure as ICT is going to win the cup, he is going DOWN to defeat in the General Election in October. He's been in for about 9  years I think as a Conservative and, since there are basically only two other realistic contenders, namely the Liberals under Justin Trudeau (the son of the former Prime Minister of Canada) and Thomas Mulcair who is an experienced National Democratic Party politician and  a very bright and hard working NDP leader, then it could well be that the Conservatives in this country are facing another heavy defeat.

 

What happens in the U K may be the same  scenario. The world is a fast paced  billet these days and the politicians can't hide any more without maybe paying a heavy price. As I write this the die may by now be cast --  so it's  back to the TV with bated breath. And never a dull moment. :laugh:  

:ictscarf:

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It seems like it is a good thing to have ordinary people engaged in politics. The "have-nots" or the "underclass" as you patronizingly put it have as much right to participate in politics as anyone else. Maybe the days of people tugging their forelocks to their supposed superiors are finally ending, and any true democrat would welcome that.

 

I would have to say that I am sufficiently sceptical about politicians of ALL persuasions to have concern that success in politics often goes to whoever fares best at cynically deluding those least well placed to understand the issues.

 

It would be on hearing appeals for Paddy Power to be devolved to Holyrood that I would really start worrying.

 

 

I take it that you don't think you are well placed to understand the issues then, Charles, given you never actually discuss them? 

 

Like yourself, I am a cynic when it comes to politicians, but I am more cynical when it comes to career politicians, particularly those who not just don't live in the same world as us now, but have never lived in the same world as us, being in charge of the future of our country and people...and by that I mean the UK.. I am more cynical about politicians who are a law unto themselves because there is no written constitution, who write rules of acceptable behaviour for themselves, appoint the people who are expected to hold them to it and then do nothing/little about those who transgress those rules.  I am cynical about  an establishment which has to be dragged kicking and screaming to confront embarrassment, and does so by setting up a commission of enquiry which takes years to start and more years to finish (probably in the hope everyone has forgotten about the issue by the time a report is produced).for example, the Iraq Inquiry, 2009-2011, but still not released, the Inquiry into Bloody Sunday, which took 12 years and the not yet started, one into Child Sex Abuse by the great and the good, something which could have been tackled in at least 1983,  long before Jimmy Savile  came to the public's attention..but while that might have saved some children, it would have damaged MPs and the perception of morality and probity so many still have in Westminster politics. . 

 

The whole Westminster set-up stinks........and there is nothing that we, the ordinary punter can do about anything, because Westminster is sovereign, which appears to make them think they also have the divine right of kings, and the system they have set up ensures it cannot change without the approval of the system, no matter what we, the voters think about anything...and turkeys are not known to be enthusiastic about voting for Christmas. If Charles I had been given a vote on his position, does anyone think he'd have voted to be beheaded? 

 

Our MPs voted against the Recall Bill, granted a poor effort which would still have left Westminster in charge of who was recalled, but even that attempt to make them actually do their job was too much voter control for Westminster; There has been no effort to abolish or reform the House of Lords, the retirement home for rejected/failed politicians and the reward for political donations, instead the numbers of unelected and unaccountable establishment figures who are in charge of our lives have increased;  Even the new E-petitions reform depends on an MP putting the idea to the Backbench Business Committee (itself another reform), because the opinions of 100,000 voters are not important enough to have time set aside for debates on E-petition issues, and it is taken from Backbench Business Committee time. But then, the opinions of a million marchers and a was not important enough to make Westminster think again about going into Iraq on the coat-tails of the USA so what chance will 100,000 have anyway. 

 

The Lobbying Bill will have little impact on professional lobbying, and that was why it was needed, to stop big businesses buying MPs and influence. It will, however limit the activity of organisations that are trying to raise awareness of issues that they feel are important, and who are trying to bring about change for the better. It makes one wonder if the reason for setting up laws which limit the ability of charities and the like to raise concerns and offer suggestions, but does little to control the actions of big businesses, is because Westminster doesn't care what charities think of their policies but they do worry in case the money men have to close their wallets.

 

So cynical one here says that the Westminster system, set up long before the Union, is not fit for its purpose,or any purpose now, and needs to be changed from top to bottom to make it democratic. Be interesting to see if the SNP does get a decent number of seats, and Labour gets enough seats to form a loose coalition to be in Government, if a spine can be inserted into the Labour Party and the House of Lords, at least is tackled.

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