Jump to content

The General Election 2015 Thread


Oddquine

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

 

Given that the police, presiding officers and various local authorities have all confirmed that there has not been a shred of evidence of intimidation anywhere in Scotland,perhaps you would confirm where you came by your 'information'.

 

 

 

I never said I saw anything that would require police intervention.  But at several polling stations there were groups of up to 6 people standing outside, in SNP regalia. Presumably they are there because they believe their presence can influence the vote, otherwise why bother?!  I know other parties do it (on a smaller scale) but would it not be preferable for all (including the poor activists) if there was a pact between all the parties to stop doing it altogether?

 

It is legal. Highly regulated and has been a factor at elections for decades. Intimidation or attempted intimidation at polling stations is a criminal offence. I reiterate, not a single crime was committed or even reported. They are not permitted, by the way, to attempt to influence the vote. 

 

You cannot say with certainty that no crime was committed at any point. You might try to say that none was reported, but on the other hand an individual alleged to have been wearing "SNP regalia" :lol:  has been charged with assaulting the son of the Conservative candidate for Inverness in the city centre on the "Rentamob Saturday" of Sturgeon's visit. And there have certainly been other instances where criminal behaviour by SNP supporters was alleged but not reported.

People do not actually have to break the law to influence behaviour. A couple of large skinhead bouncers standing at the door of a night club are likely to deter patrons from misbehaving inside. Similarly a posse of party apparatchiks outside a polling station in what Yngwie delightfully calls "SNP regalia" might well be perceived as intimidating by some old lady who has hitherto voted Tory for her entire life.

Indeed on the subject of "SNP regalia", on the other side of the fence, Orange Walks largely keep within the letter of the law but are widely perceived as intimidating.

SNP supporters have spent decades converting aggressive practices which still remain inside the law into a fine art.

The party's problem now is that, following their recent populist policies, their subsequent large increase in membership will most certainly include a disproportionate number of knuckledraggers - even upper class ones like Piers Doughty-Brown :laugh: - who are going to put themselves about aggressively more and more.

Just ask the Germans.

 

 

Godwin's Law. :redcard:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Confession time, that pic isn't actually from Dingwall.  In fact it isn't even in Scotland, which should be fairly obvious to anyone who has cast their vote today given that this polling station doesn't have the obligatory SNP mob outside. What's that all about, why can't people be allowed to vote in peace?

Given that the police, presiding officers and various local authorities have all confirmed that there has not been a shred of evidence of intimidation anywhere in Scotland,perhaps you would confirm where you came by your 'information'.

A somewhat legalistic observation, if I may say, in an environment where, amid all the saltires that fly from cars with impunity, I would certainly never risk my insurance excess by flying a Union flag from mine.

Impunity???? Why should anyone be punished for displaying their national flag?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Confession time, that pic isn't actually from Dingwall.  In fact it isn't even in Scotland, which should be fairly obvious to anyone who has cast their vote today given that this polling station doesn't have the obligatory SNP mob outside. What's that all about, why can't people be allowed to vote in peace?

Given that the police, presiding officers and various local authorities have all confirmed that there has not been a shred of evidence of intimidation anywhere in Scotland,perhaps you would confirm where you came by your 'information'. A somewhat legalistic observation, if I may say, in an environment where, amid all the saltires that fly from cars with impunity, I would certainly never risk my insurance excess by flying a Union flag from mine.

Impunity???? Why should anyone be punished for displaying their national flag?

 

They wouldn't. That's the whole point. Saltire flyers can do so with impunity - which is "freedom from the injurious consequences of an action".

I would not rely on anything like the same level of impunity for fliers of Union Flags.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Confession time, that pic isn't actually from Dingwall. In fact it isn't even in Scotland, which should be fairly obvious to anyone who has cast their vote today given that this polling station doesn't have the obligatory SNP mob outside. What's that all about, why can't people be allowed to vote in peace?

Given that the police, presiding officers and various local authorities have all confirmed that there has not been a shred of evidence of intimidation anywhere in Scotland,perhaps you would confirm where you came by your 'information'.A somewhat legalistic observation, if I may say, in an environment where, amid all the saltires that fly from cars with impunity, I would certainly never risk my insurance excess by flying a Union flag from mine.Impunity???? Why should anyone be punished for displaying their national flag?

They wouldn't. That's the whole point. Saltire flyers can do so with impunity - which is "freedom from the injurious consequences of an action".

I would not rely on anything like the same level of impunity for fliers of Union Flags.Assertion and smear. Your statement suggests that you think they should be punished.

Edited by robbylad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only scenes of flag-related violence that comes to mind is when the union flag hordes descended on George Square in September, attacking those with Saltires, so as usual there is no substance to these fantasies of the big bad nats setting aboot anyone.  

 

Does seem like a recurring fantasy though: gruff, burly nats descending on CB's pad.

 

Whatever floats yer boat ah suppose. 

  • Agree 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Assertion and smear. Your statement suggests that you think they should be punished.

 

Robby.... for goodness sake check out the meaning of "impunity"! It would make life a lot more simple.

 

Tell you what - try this one:

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/impunity

 

Here endeth the lesson, but since I've started a post I might as well relate a sort of political tale I heard today about the journalist Sarah Vine.

Apparently Ms Vine, in a column, was commenting on the affair which the Speaker John Bercow's somewhat bizarre and embarrassing wife Sally had with her husband's cousin.

Ms Vine made the observation that although John Bercow is hardly an oil painting, compared with his cousin he is a veritable Brad Pitt, so looks clearly weren't the attraction.

Rather an ironic statement, I thought, from a lady who is the wife of that archetypal Greasy Tory Git Michael Gove :amazed:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only scenes of flag-related violence that comes to mind is when the union flag hordes descended on George Square in September, attacking those with Saltires, so as usual there is no substance to these fantasies of the big bad nats setting aboot anyone.  

 

Does seem like a recurring fantasy though: gruff, burly nats descending on CB's pad.

 

Whatever floats yer boat ah suppose. 

 

 

What a strange statement - An insult to the millions of people who have given their lives for that flag.

Most probably members of your own family

You should be ashamed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gave their lives for a flag? Do you mean the union flag as a symbol of the political union between Scotland and England? Who exactly do you believe gave their lives for that cause? Members of my family gave their lives in the forces for a number of reasons- their families, comrades and communities. How dare you insult their memory by assuming they did so because they agreed with your unionist politics.

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gave their lives for a flag? Do you mean the union flag as a symbol of the political union between Scotland and England? Who exactly do you believe gave their lives for that cause? Members of my family gave their lives in the forces for a number of reasons- their families, comrades and communities. How dare you insult their memory by assuming they did so because they agreed with your unionist politics.

I would imagine that the flag was pretty far down the list of priorities of those who fought in WWs 1 and 2. To preserve their own and their families' freedom and that of people throughout the world - yes. To rid Europe of Fascism - yes. Because they were conscripted and had no choice - in some cases yes. Because they were fighting for their monarch - misguidedly... in a few cases yes.

For a flag?... I really don't think so. Beacuse they believed in the Union? - I very much doubt if that issue even entered the heads of many.

I am always bothered on behalf of that generation of our armed forces, which included my father, in that they fought to defeat one tyranny but in alliance with another which, as a result, went on to tyrannise the rest of Eastern Europe for a further half century and now threatens to do so again. In the end, Britain's and France's final reason for going to war - the political integrity of Poland - was never realised since the Poles were merely bounced from domination by the Germans to domination by the Russians.

  • Agree 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just spent a week at a retreat (not a silent one....there are no miracles after all).....but there were no newspapers, no radio, and no internet in a deliberate  attempt to break my posting habit so I can actually accomplish something tangible......like clean windows, starting and finishing a long promised birth sampler and weeding the patch of chucky stanes which pass for my garden. Tried to break the habit after the referendum as well, but it didn't work then either.   

 

I came back late this morning...and here I am again.....with a blog article by Derek Bateman, http://derekbateman.co.uk/2015/05/15/we-did-this/   from which I clip parts of two passages which pretty much say how I feel........

 

I’ve spent my life hating the cringe that tells us we somehow need approval to be ourselves – our vernacular culture, the way we talk – as if there was a higher being judging us. It is the very basis of the inferiority complex that stains our national character and leaves an opening to acceptance of failure as if second best was all we deserved.

 

and

 

The important thing is that identity isn’t the sole purpose of your politics but a frame within you make politics work. That’s what we have been doing – framing a politics that suits us, the Scots, developing positions that broadly suit the people who live here and defining what kind of country we want to be. That’s precisely what Labour should have been doing instead of trimming to meet the aspirations of people who live elsewhere with different needs.

 

It's rather ironic, though that the very people, in government and among the population, who got what they wanted.....as in the continuance of the Union....are the very ones who won't let the referendum go, in Westminster or on forums/social media,  and are likely, in the end, to be the ones to .break what they wanted to preserve...because they can't accept that the two main aims in the SNP constitution are independence and the furtherance of all Scottish interests.  Independence as an active issue is off the agenda, imo, until the Scottish election after an EU referendum at the earliest, and the SNP contingent are currently in Westminster to further all Scottish interests within the UK system. I really don't see why any Scot would have a problem with that..........isn't that what all Scottish MPs, regardless of party, should always have been doing....putting Scotland first?

 

Edited to add this

https://mancunianspring.wordpress.com/2015/05/13/the-best-election-result-that-a-free-north-could-wish-for/

 

Interesting that many furth of Scotland get it that our current UK version of democracy is accepted as being broken, while so many in Scotland don't. If the 56 manage to do nothing else in the next five years, they have already rattled the Westminster cage and made people think that there could be something better with the will to buck the system and work for it. 

Edited by Oddquine
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

The Labour Party post-election bash planned for the ICT Social Club on Saturday night was cancelled.

I wonder what the problem was? Maybe they couldn't get their hands on any Leonard Cohen records.

I guess they were clean out of bitter. :smile: Inverness's supply hasn't been replenished yet since the Gelluns used it all on Referendum night.

Not even a cheeky wee half pint with bitter undertones and an acidic aftertaste? :sad:

 

I think they were elsewhere downing the Murphy's followed by a Grouse or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only scenes of flag-related violence that comes to mind is when the union flag hordes descended on George Square in September, attacking those with Saltires, so as usual there is no substance to these fantasies of the big bad nats setting aboot anyone.

Does seem like a recurring fantasy though: gruff, burly nats descending on CB's pad.

Whatever floats yer boat ah suppose.

What a strange statement - An insult to the millions of people who have given their lives for that flag.

Most probably members of your own family

You should be ashamed

What a pathetic post. Who dies for some coloured fabric?

Also dougie is correct. The only flag related violence came from unionists waving union flags, being bigots and attacking people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgaA1tVyDFs/maxresdefault.jpg

 

These men where they pathetic

 

Where Roman legions pathetic to protect their eagle at all costs

 

Every regiment has its colours that men would die for

 

The Union flag is our national emblem  created by King James when he came from Scotland to form the Union

 

The Flags of ST Andrew St George and St Patrick are not National flats as such, but emblems of Patron Saints of the main Nationalities that formed the Union.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The Union flag is our national emblem  created by King James when he came from Scotland to form the Union

 

Not really because the St Patrick's Cross wasn't added added until the union with Ireland in 1801.

Look Laurence - a flag or any other type of standard in battle is merely symbolic. The reasons people fight battles are almost always political - be that on behalf of a democratically elected government, a specific cause or at the behest of an undemocratically unelected monarch who wants either to extend his/her sphere of influence or protect his/her own backside. That is what they are fighting for, whether or not they passionately believe in the cause they are fighting for - or, as mercenaries, for money.

Quite frankl;y, to suggest that men in "regiments" die for colours is absurd and, to be frank, potentially insulting.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good Lord. I find myself in agreement with CB once again.

 

I dislike what the Union Flag symbolises. Laurence seems rather fond of it. That's fair enough but to suggest that men and women who valiantly perished in conflict for an oblong of fabric is frankly ludicrous, like most of Lauence's posts,and does no justice at all to their memories and the multitude of reasons, sometimes sheer compulsion by governments, that they did make the ultimate sacrifice for.

Edited by Kingsmills
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good Lord. I find myself in agreement with CB once again.

 

I dislike what the Union Flag symbolises. Laurence seems rather fond of it. That's fair enough but to suggest that men and women who valiantly perished in conflict for an oblong of fabric is frankly ludicrous, like most of Lauence's posts,and does no justice at all to their memories and the multitude of reasons, sometimes sheer compulsion by governments, that they did make the ultimate sacrifice for.

And apart from the fact that a do like what the Union Flag symbolises, this also is pretty bang on. :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgaA1tVyDFs/maxresdefault.jpg

 

These men where they pathetic

 

Where Roman legions pathetic to protect their eagle at all costs

 

Every regiment has its colours that men would die for

 

The Union flag is our national emblem  created by King James when he came from Scotland to form the Union

 

The Flags of ST Andrew St George and St Patrick are not National flats as such, but emblems of Patron Saints of the main Nationalities that formed the Union.

Laurence you have been watching to many old war films!

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So... some clarity this morning from Nicola Sturgeon in her call for a "double majority" in the EU referendum so that the constituent parts of the UK would all also have to vote for secession from the EU before this could take place.

 

Hence, in the event of a second Scottish referendum on which she (unlike many of her supporters) has been so evasive, we can presumably also anticipate the need for all the constituent parts of Scotland being required to vote for secession from the UK before that could take place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So... some clarity this morning from Nicola Sturgeon in her call for a "double majority" in the EU referendum so that the constituent parts of the UK would all also have to vote for secession from the EU before this could take place.

 

Hence, in the event of a second Scottish referendum on which she (unlike many of her supporters) has been so evasive, we can presumably also anticipate the need for all the constituent parts of Scotland being required to vote for secession from the UK before that could take place.

No. In case you hadn't noticed. Despite not being a nation state, Scotland is a nation with many of the trappings of such. Notwithstanding their respective undoubted charms, The Highlands, Tayside, Greater Glasgow, The Western Isles et al, whilst constituent parts of Scotland, are not nations. Just how far do you propose to distill it down ? Are you proposing that Dalneigh should have a veto should it vote no or perhaps you wish to distill it down to the Bannerman household.

 

Incidentally, The First Minister did not 'clarify' her position this morning. She merely reiterated a position she made with great clarity several times during the election campaign.

 

If you are going to debate for goodness sake have some sort of coherent and reasonable point to make.

Edited by Kingsmills
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Credit to Danny Alexander for refusing a peerage and,with it a seat in the archaic and utterly undemocratic House of Lords. If all non Tory politicians, following the example of the SNP, did the same then the place would lose whatever remaining vestige of credibility it has and long overdue abolition would be inevitable. A second chamber to review legislation is probably desirable but it should be elected on some democratic basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

So... some clarity this morning from Nicola Sturgeon in her call for a "double majority" in the EU referendum so that the constituent parts of the UK would all also have to vote for secession from the EU before this could take place.

 

Hence, in the event of a second Scottish referendum on which she (unlike many of her supporters) has been so evasive, we can presumably also anticipate the need for all the constituent parts of Scotland being required to vote for secession from the UK before that could take place.

No. In case you hadn't noticed. Despite not being a nation state, Scotland is a nation with many of the trappings of such. Notwithstanding their respective undoubted charms, The Highlands, Tayside, Greater Glasgow, The Western Isles et al, whilst constituent parts of Scotland, are not nations. Just how far do you propose to distill it down ? Are you proposing that Dalneigh should have a veto should it vote no or perhaps you wish to distill it down to the Bannerman household.

 

If you are going to debate for goodness sake have some sort of coherent and reasonable point to make.

 

The definition of a "Nation" is a minefield which I will not go into because it is actually irrelevant to the debate.  Sturgeon's latest offerings are nothing to do with the rights of a "nation" but simply provide further evidence of her lack of respect for the principles of democracy and for the views of the majority of the people living in Scotland.

 

The referendum demonstrated that a majority of people in Scotland wish to remain in the UK.  What that means is a collective accountability and acceptance for the views of the majority within the UK in line with the democratic process applied.  It means that if a majority of UK voters vote to leave the EU then so be it; we accept it even if we don't agree with it. 

 

What is equally obnoxious is the fact that she seems to think that the views of less than 10% of the UK population should override the views of the majority of UK citizens.  What she is saying is that she doesn't give a toss for the democratic rights of citizens in the rest of the UK.  If she had her way and if the other 3 nations voted 70:30 to leave the EU but Scotland voted 51:49 to stay in, then the UK would stay in the EU despite the vast majority of its citizens wanting to leave.  Why would the English even bother to vote!  The idea is preposterous and simply illustrates Sturgeon's complete contempt for the democratic process.  It is just another example of the SNP wanting to be disruptive to the UK Government and to cause tensions and divisions between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

What would be reasonable for Sturgeon to say is that of course she will accept the majority UK opinion, but that if the Scottish people vote to stay in the EU and the overall UK vote is to leave, then she would regard that as a materially changed circumstance which would justify a 2nd independence referendum.  That would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say and would respect the democratic wishes of both the Scottish and the wider UK electorates. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As the Unionists constantly stated during the referendum campaign the UK is a family of nations. England is, by a margin the largest of the nations which is why a federal structure in the normal sense will almost certainly not work.

 

There may be away to save the Union but that way is, without doubt, not the largest nation dictating to the smaller ones through sheer weight of numbers. Those days have passed and the political landscape has changed for good. To ignore that fact and to continue with 'business as usual will only result in one outcome albeit one we Nationalists would welcome and embrace.

 

I actually suspect that each nation of the UK will vote to remain in the EU so it may well be a non issue but if England moves to move house and build another on very different foundations they cannot expect to drag Scotland with them against it's will should Scotland vote to stay put.

 

Perhaps, before suggesting that Scotland should be treated as a mere region in much the same manner as Kent or Yorkshire you should familiarise yourself with the Terms of The Treaty of Union. The ancient nation of Scotland did not cede sovereignty but entered a bilateral contract to share it.

Edited by Kingsmills
  • Agree 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. : Terms of Use : Guidelines : Privacy Policy