Pay What You Can

[ictchris]

15 minutes ago, dougiedanger said:

I think it's true that attendances are generally up in the SPFL, so not sure where the gloomy scenarios are coming from. Additionally, the Scottish game is one of the best supported per capita in Europe, so there is no need to indulge in typical Scottish self-denigration over this. 

ICT has its own particular challenges, which many other clubs don't have. Time will tell if they will be overcome, or continue to hamper the development of the club.

Inverness has a population of 50,000, give or take.  Our average attendance is around 4,000, roughly 8% of the local population. 

What sort of crowds do people think we should be getting?  8,000?  10,000?  A quarter of the population of Inverness coming to watch Caley?

The season we won the First Division for the first time our average was about 2,000.  Essentially we have doubled our fanbase in the last decade.  Bear in mind as well that we've not had full-time, top flight football in Inverness before.  There's never been crowds of this size consistently for football in Inverness, we don't have the latent support that clubs like Falkirk or Dunfrmline, for example, have.

[dougiedanger]

2 hours ago, ictchris said:

Inverness has a population of 50,000, give or take.  Our average attendance is around 4,000, roughly 8% of the local population. 

What sort of crowds do people think we should be getting?  8,000?  10,000?  A quarter of the population of Inverness coming to watch Caley?

The season we won the First Division for the first time our average was about 2,000.  Essentially we have doubled our fanbase in the last decade.  Bear in mind as well that we've not had full-time, top flight football in Inverness before.  There's never been crowds of this size consistently for football in Inverness, we don't have the latent support that clubs like Falkirk or Dunfrmline, for example, have.

I think the population is considerably higher than 50,000, if you include the suburbs, etc. Also, not sure if it is right to say Sneck has never had crowds like this. Maybe in the 50s/60s they were higher? Not sure.

[TopSix]

The population of the Highlands in 2011 was 232000 though.  Granted, the wee team have some support, but we have supporters who travel from Skye,  etc. 

[CaleyD]

If you're talking in terms of immediate catchment area for comparative purposes with other clubs, then a figure in the region of 50k to 55k would be about right.

[DEANO96]

Where do people get their numbers from seriously? Our average attendance is well below 4000, in fact it's below 3500! Apart from the Celtic, Abereen and hearts games, we never have more than 3500! And those are the clubs that bring big away supports! The county games have a higher attendance but even these games are bringing less people through the gates! If you look on the club website fixture list, it gives you the attendances for each game and no where do I see a huge rise from last year! 

And even if they are slightly up, if you look at 2007 the attendances are well over 4000 which we hardly see for a game against Motherwell, dun utd etc. 

Also, there is far more than 50000 people in Inverness now and I'd bet a lot of supporters are from outside the town! So I don't think we can base low numbers on the population of the city! 

We need to stop looking for reasons as to why the attendances are going down and just accept that football is to expensive and there's not enough interest anymore! 

The tv issue really gets to me now! This is also a reason as to why less people attend football but it's not an excuse for our club as we only get around 5 league games a season! But live screening of games really has ruinied football especially when tv company's can basically determine when a game will be played instead of when it's going to suit the people that want to go and watch it! 

In reality, we should be getting around 4000-4500 a week but I can't see it happening anytime soon! 

[eileanacheoICT]

1 hour ago, TopSix said:

The population of the Highlands in 2011 was 232000 though.  Granted, the wee team have some support, but we have supporters who travel from Skye,  etc. 

TopSix, there are fans that travel from Skye and even Lewis and the Western isles but unfortunately these have long been Rangers strongholds and to a lesser degree Celtic and Aberdeen - similar in Wester-Ross though with some more C*unty fans.  Sadly this has been the case for generations and is a tough situation to break down! If we continue as we are with a cup win/run here and there and continue to finish top 6, it'll  hopefully help turn some of these fans away from the old firm etc but it'll take time to break down the generational traditions in places like Lewis/Skye.

[ictchris]

Here are our average crowds for the last twelve seasons

2003/04 - 2375 (First Division)

2004/05 - 4067 (half season played at Pittodrie)

2005/06 - 5061

2006/07 - 4879

2007/08 - 4753

2008/09 - 4457

2009/10 - 3509 (First Division)

2010/11 - 4526

2011/12 - 4023

2012/13 - 4038

2013/14 - 3558

2014/15 - 3733

2015/16 - 3816

Average over those seasons of around 4399.  That's our core support.

One reason why the crowds are down now compared to when we were first promoted is the novelty factor wearing off.  I've posted about this before but I can remember going to the home game against Aberdeen in 2005 and literally every seat was full, a complete sell out.  The last home game against Aberdeen there were more than 1,000 empty seats.  I think that there's a constituency in Inverness, and probably everywhere else, that maybe comes to derby games or cup finals or big matches v the Old Firm but don't show up every week.  During the early seasons in the SPL they'd show up for games against the 'city' clubs but they don't now. Playing Aberdeen is normal, it's not a 'big' game unless league positions dictate that it is.

For example, in the season with our highest average ever we had 6800 for a game against Aberdeen - we got 6400 for the same fixture this season.  We had 7000 for a game against Hibs, last time they played us on a Saturday in Inverness the crowd was just over 4,000.  We had 1,000 more fans for the game against Hearts.  But if you compare games from around that time against more modest opposition, the crowds are broadly similar to what we get now.

Overall though, I think the trend is good.  For the ten years we were in the lower leagues most run of the mill league games had less than 2000 fans attending.  We've developed that into a larger, more loyal fanbase - I remember going to games and there were people on the terraces genuinely more concerned with listening to the Rangers game on the radio than our game.  We've got a far better away support, although it does ebb and flow a bit.  When I started going to away games, it was usually a smattering of a few dozen.  The character of our support is different as well, younger fans behaving a bit more like football fans than boiled sweet rattling old Highland moaners (although we have plenty of those).

I didn't mean to make a monster post but I get a bit frustrated when people constantly slate our crowds and you get huge negativity about it.  the fact is we get decent crowds considering where we come from, where we play and our catchment area. 

 

 

[ictchris]

Another comparison you can do is to compare the sort of places in England that draw similar crowds to us and have a look at the size of catchment areas that these places have.

Scunthorpe United - 3724 - 72,514

Hartlepool United - 3810 - 92,000

Exeter City - 3902 - 124,328

Wycombe - 3925 - 120,256

 

[12th Man]

It's not our core support though is it.

It's the average attendance that gets swollen every time the away end is full up, plus people turning up to watch us play Celtic, County etc.

Only the club knows what our home support is.

Next season will be healthier but it would be better to create new interest this season too.

[Charles Bannerman]

1 hour ago, ictchris said:

 For the ten years we were in the lower leagues most run of the mill league games had less than 2000 fans attending.  We've developed that into a larger, more loyal fanbase -

I didn't mean to make a monster post

Indeed - a larger and more loyal fan base despite the tens of thousands who have been pouring into Dougal's blue phonebox (Tardis?) on Telford Street for the last 20 odd years.

And irrespective of how monstrous or otherwise you meant to make your post, I think it's a very good one and bang on the money in very many respects.

 

[12th Man]

Getting back to the pay what you can attendance.

We can't blame the cost of the match as the deterrent.

We can't blame the team as you have to turn up in the first place to gain an opinion.

Maybe it's kind of like the Interest the city has shown when we get to Cup finals, it wasn't there to begin with but now the whole city gets involved.

Maybe the attendance is a work in progress.

Even the posters were eye catching and if you clocked one it stood out. Maybe more info or a web address or even an android bar code on ones the next time.

If they caught the eye then only a small percentage acted on it. So maybe the difficult bit was from catching the eye to acting on it and actually going.

We have seen the positivity from a small but growing bunch of youngsters in the North stand.

Why not make the Easter holiday match £5 under 16s or something similar and send a poster headed 'a personal invitation' to every secondary school with in 40 miles or even get the players out at the schools to pin them up on the notice boards. A bar code scanner that takes you to a private web page regarding them being part of the exclusive 100 fans project. It's on their phone and that's a start. When the belief is there that it's going to happen then it will happen.

I mentioned pensioners before too as they are the richest of us all.

Some people say if you stop moving forward you actually fall behind.

 

 

[Charles Bannerman]

27 minutes ago, 12th Man said:

We can't blame the cost of the match as the deterrent.

You are very possibly right. Apart from the admission cost, fans, many of them wearing eyewateringly expensive replica strips, drive in numbers into the home car park where they are prepared to pay £3 rather than walk a few hundred yards and often buy a programme on the way into the ground. Before they get to the turnstiles, they will encounter collectors for charities, many of which obviously believe that a stance outside a football ground is a significant money maker. Once inside, many fans will also patronise the expensive catering outlet and/or the bar.

In other words, there seem to be so many peripherals which are not necessary in order actually just to see the football but which still have money spent on them. As a result, you have to wonder why complaints about the single absolute necessity - ticket cost - are so frequent and why admission prices seem to be such a big deterrent. The one that really surprises me is the charity collection. Obviously it is well worth the charities' trouble to go to football matches despite the fact that the charity contribution is the only one of several possible outlays which yields nothing tangible (this side of Heaven!) and which might be expected to be most vulnerable if there is a general resentment about how much the attached football experience is costing.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Charles Bannerman

[+DoofersDad]

I think you are generalising too much.  People from across the socio-economic spectrum like to watch football and whilst some people can comfortably afford anything the match day experience offers, there are others for whom just paying the admission price represents a concious financial decision.  The pay what you can initiative gives this second group the opportunity to attend the game and support their team.  The club should be grateful for whatever they can afford and for any vocal support they give.  

But the pay what you can initiative also allows others who are maybe less inclined to attended regularly but could afford it if they were.  This group of folk are more likely to pay a little bit more for their ticket and to spend on the peripherals.  If what they experience makes it a good day out then they will likely be back.  It therefore seems to me to make clear sense to have pay what you can matches from time to time.  Of course, a key ingredient in this is to make sure the main event inspires folk to come back for more.  Sadly that ingredient was missing on Saturday and it will now be even harder to persuade folk to give it another try after witnessing that.

[12th Man]

Putting a positive spin on it DD, Getting 6,000 in the stadium would have been a success but overall if they had gone away disappointed then it would have failed. We didn't achieve the former so we didn't really fail on the second.

Maybe pay what you can is a bit too vague for someone dipping their toe in the water,  perhaps people just want to know what things cost, no catches.

"Eden Court pay what you can, what's the catch"

Maybe a wee thank you for the fantastic Cup final support.

With having X amount of St holders its a safer bet doing this from time to time.

[Scotty]

Press Release from the Club: 

 

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Press Release : 27th January 2016 : For Immediate Use

PAY WHAT YOU CAN : ICTFC REACTION

Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC are pleased to say that we are happy with the outcome of Saturday’s Pay What You Can initiative for our home match against Partick Thistle.

Both home and away fans attending the game were given the opportunity to pay what they felt able to afford, which saw a rise in the expected attendance.

3556 supporters, including 358 visitors, took in the match which finished honours even…gaining ICTFC a point which keeps us in the top half of the league table.  This was an increase of just over 800 fans from a comparable match in December 2014; the last time the two clubs met on a Saturday at 3pm in the Highland capital.

Commercial Manager Iain Auld said: “We first trialled the ‘Pay What You Can’ initiative in January last year for a midweek fixture versus St Johnstone and the confidence gained from the fan’s response to that lead to the decision to run it again this year; and to do so for a Saturday 3pm match.”

“The numbers still have to be fully analysed and we’ll also seek feedback from those attending for the first time and those who attend less regularly before drawing any definitive conclusions on where we go from here.  However, the data from this, and other initiatives, will allow us to better understand how many more Caley Thistle fans are out there just now and how much they are willing to pay. We’ll run that information alongside what we know of existing fans and then look to see what we can do to increase attendances on a more regular basis without jeopardising the club's financial position.”
 

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[dougiedanger]

Club missed a trick not making it the Aiberdeen game, place would have been full to the rafters, the coffers less so.

 

Cost must be an issue, especially given the Highlands' historically low average wage, and it makes no sense to base affordability on observing the habits of those who turn up when you would think that those who really can't afford to go would not be there in the first place. 

 

 

[12th Man]

42 minutes ago, dougiedanger said:

Club missed a trick not making it the Aiberdeen game, place would have been full to the rafters, the coffers less so.

 

Cost must be an issue, especially given the Highlands' historically low average wage, and it makes no sense to base affordability on observing the habits of those who turn up when you would think that those who really can't afford to go would not be there in the first place. 

 

 

 the club are guaranteed over 2500 full paying Aberdeen fans alone plus loads more full paying fans for the home end we had 6400  for the last home game.

That would absolutely cripple the club getting Aberdonians to pay what they can.

For a smaller match you can even take a small loss IF it genuinely encourages more to frequently attend in the future.

No point what so ever dropping prices for a well supported game.

[12th Man]

Valid point in your 2 nd paragraph.

It's good to maintain links with fans, if fortunes change you have them back more frequently. If they're not seen for years then you've lost them all together.

Regulars would pay a bit less, irregular fans would pay to turn up, pay extra money which balances the shortfall. New curious fans may turn up for a change but would have no interest forking out £25 just to see what goes on but if it was £5, its an extra £5 and hopefully they will stick around.

Lastly those youngsters behind the goal will sell their match day experience to anyone who wants to listen. Their seat would norm cost £10. Personally I would take a hit and reduce to £5. Hope that they encourage more to attend and pay the higher rates a year or 2 down the line.

Edited January 29, 2016 by 12th Man

[dougiedanger]

15 hours ago, 12th Man said:

 the club are guaranteed over 2500 full paying Aberdeen fans alone plus loads more full paying fans for the home end we had 6400  for the last home game.

That would absolutely cripple the club getting Aberdonians to pay what they can.

For a smaller match you can even take a small loss IF it genuinely encourages more to frequently attend in the future.

No point what so ever dropping prices for a well supported game.

Turn it up 12th man, jeez.

[Alex MacLeod]

On 1/26/2016 at 0:17 PM, ictchris said:

The number of fans taking public transport to games is small.  Most away fans will either drive or get a supporters bus, certainly from Inverness,

Scotrail will never put football specials on, there isn't enough demand.

Trains are expensive but there are simple ways to make them a little cheaper. Example. Inverness to Perth day return £26.20 Perth to Edinburgh £16.90.....Total £43.10 whereas Inverness to Edinburgh day return £52.10. Always best to look at splitting fares or even look at price of single journeys.