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Alex MacLeod

EU In or Out

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5 minutes ago, IBM said:

You are right but the Prime Minister is just about to file for divorce  :sad:

It's the First Minister who looks as though she is filing for divorce.  The Prime Minister is simply moving away from neighbours who have, perhaps, become a bit too clingy and demanding.

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On 3/12/2017 at 1:09 PM, Laurence said:

Quite simply Independence is just a romantic notion

There are people still fighting medieval wars in their heads and in their hearts.

Scotland cannot afford financially to be an independent country in or out of Europe

The NHS in Scotland is costing about 10 billion pounds a year , just about the same as the oil wealth when the price was high

Now the north sea oil and gas industry is being funded from the UK treasury , it is in a negative financial state and is predicted to stay that way until 2022,  (not accounting for the costs of decommissioning )

If the oil magnates in the  middle  east , can put  the price up or down ( by raising or reducing output at will) ,  then the fear of a second collapse is always possible.

Scotland's tax payers  I guess around 2,00,000 of them can't be expected to foot the bill of running a country.

The balance of payments deficit with England not to mention the E U is enormous  , over one hundred trucks an hour cross the border at Gretna bringing supplies from England and elsewhere into Scotland, I know because I have counted them .

The main trucks going the other way are carrying timber and livestock.

Yo only have to go into the stores in Inverness to see the sales floors stacked with imported goods, all would have to be paid for with the  currency adopted by the new country. If it be the Euro a second bankrupted Greece will be on the horizon.

Romance is one thing , reality is another, as a Scottish tax pay payer I am not happy to foot the bill of separation. 

Laurence. A bit like CB, I’ve avoided this one because it becomes wearisome to witness the amount of bunkum churned up and presented as fact by both sides. Mostly, it’s just that – bunkum, but occasionally there comes along one dripping in arrogance, half truth, misplaced observation and plain falsehood. It’s usually unionist and your post fits the bill Before anyone gets apoplectic I’ll explain why.

That Scotland cannot afford to be independent is simply untrue. Economically, brexit – driven and idealogically born in England - changes everything. The economic cost to the UK of leaving the EU could be as high as a reduction of 10 per cent in average incomes by 2030. If Scotland, by becoming independent, can avoid that fate then there is a clear long term economic gain. Also, if it can remain in the single market, it becomes a gateway to inward investment and immigration that the UK used to be. David Davis for RUK, on the other hand hasn’t even counted the cost (see his answers to Hillary Benn in committee this week) A hard brexit will mean potentially crippling levels of tariff imposed on Scottish goods. The question actually is that can Scotland afford NOT to be independent.

NHS Scotland has an annual budget of £12.2 billion per year and as you know is paid for through general taxation (including that levied on it’s 160,00 or so employees) As you know, general taxation is not tied to oil and gas revenue so I can’t really see where the direct correlation arises. Anayway, the oil and gas industry is not funded by UK treasury. Income from it has dropped to £60 million per year from £8.1 billion per year – bad enough in it’s self – but your assertion isn’t true. It’s possible to improve overall economics by growing revenue (see above) and redefining spending priorities such as not continuing to fund part of a £205 billion spend on nuclear submarines. There’s your NHS.

OPEC has always controlled oil prices and this will not affect Scotland more than it will any other country. The current crisis has been precipitated by OPEC driving down prices to make (mainly) US fracking unsustainable. Given that Scotlands policy is to be 50% reliant on renewables by 2030 (currently, scottish renewable generation makes up approximately 26.4% of total UK output) If oil prices rise again by 2022 (your figure, not mine) the net revenue rises against a lower cost base. All to the good, improves overall economics. I needn’t point out that none of this is UK Gvernment policy.

There are 2.52 million income taxpayers in Scotland (8.5% of UK total) generating £11.4 billion per annum. They can (and do) support the country. Scottish productivity is 4 times that of the UK average. The balance of payments (structural deficit) is challenging but addressing it “as is” implies no change in funding, policy or investment in the case of independence. You can bet your bottom dollar that change would in fact be rapid, progressive and egalitarian in focus.

Your next two points regarding trucks at gretna and their contents are demostrably nonsense but they illustrate a point. It’s where the drippy arrogance comes in. Discount whisky, salmon, beef and lamb, chemicals, petroleum products, electronics, renewables and textiles which accounted for £4.3 billion in revenue in 2013. Discount that almost two-thirds of Scotland's total exports fall into five categories: business services, instrument engineering, chemicals, food and beverages, and mechanical engineering. There is expertise in this country. Other Scottish exports include textiles and equipment and technology relating to renewable energies. Discount that top importers of Scottish products include Germany, France, the Netherlands and the United States Timber and Livestock ? Wheesht..

Whilst we are at it, the Greece argument is utter tosh and originally produced as a headline in the Times, nothing more. It was based on data and methodology which was flawed to say the least (it quotes, for instance, the Scottish “addiction” to tax and spend) and has been widely discredited. Greece was an economic basket case and bears no resemblance to the Scottish scenario.

There you have it friend. Not a single point you have made stands scrutiny. I appreciate and welcome your right to input and put forward arguments but at least “do the math” before committing – that way you might realise that you will have no bill to pay.

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4 minutes ago, davie said:

Laurence. A bit like CB, I’ve avoided this one because it becomes wearisome to witness the amount of bunkum churned up and presented as fact by both sides. Mostly, it’s just that – bunkum, but occasionally there comes along one dripping in arrogance, half truth, misplaced observation and plain falsehood. It’s usually unionist and your post fits the bill Before anyone gets apoplectic I’ll explain why.

That Scotland cannot afford to be independent is simply untrue. Economically, brexit – driven and idealogically born in England - changes everything. The economic cost to the UK of leaving the EU could be as high as a reduction of 10 per cent in average incomes by 2030. If Scotland, by becoming independent, can avoid that fate then there is a clear long term economic gain. Also, if it can remain in the single market, it becomes a gateway to inward investment and immigration that the UK used to be. David Davis for RUK, on the other hand hasn’t even counted the cost (see his answers to Hillary Benn in committee this week) A hard brexit will mean potentially crippling levels of tariff imposed on Scottish goods. The question actually is that can Scotland afford NOT to be independent.

NHS Scotland has an annual budget of £12.2 billion per year and as you know is paid for through general taxation (including that levied on it’s 160,00 or so employees) As you know, general taxation is not tied to oil and gas revenue so I can’t really see where the direct correlation arises. Anayway, the oil and gas industry is not funded by UK treasury. Income from it has dropped to £60 million per year from £8.1 billion per year – bad enough in it’s self – but your assertion isn’t true. It’s possible to improve overall economics by growing revenue (see above) and redefining spending priorities such as not continuing to fund part of a £205 billion spend on nuclear submarines. There’s your NHS.

OPEC has always controlled oil prices and this will not affect Scotland more than it will any other country. The current crisis has been precipitated by OPEC driving down prices to make (mainly) US fracking unsustainable. Given that Scotlands policy is to be 50% reliant on renewables by 2030 (currently, scottish renewable generation makes up approximately 26.4% of total UK output) If oil prices rise again by 2022 (your figure, not mine) the net revenue rises against a lower cost base. All to the good, improves overall economics. I needn’t point out that none of this is UK Gvernment policy.

There are 2.52 million income taxpayers in Scotland (8.5% of UK total) generating £11.4 billion per annum. They can (and do) support the country. Scottish productivity is 4 times that of the UK average. The balance of payments (structural deficit) is challenging but addressing it “as is” implies no change in funding, policy or investment in the case of independence. You can bet your bottom dollar that change would in fact be rapid, progressive and egalitarian in focus.

Your next two points regarding trucks at gretna and their contents are demostrably nonsense but they illustrate a point. It’s where the drippy arrogance comes in. Discount whisky, salmon, beef and lamb, chemicals, petroleum products, electronics, renewables and textiles which accounted for £4.3 billion in revenue in 2013. Discount that almost two-thirds of Scotland's total exports fall into five categories: business services, instrument engineering, chemicals, food and beverages, and mechanical engineering. There is expertise in this country. Other Scottish exports include textiles and equipment and technology relating to renewable energies. Discount that top importers of Scottish products include Germany, France, the Netherlands and the United States Timber and Livestock ? Wheesht..

Whilst we are at it, the Greece argument is utter tosh and originally produced as a headline in the Times, nothing more. It was based on data and methodology which was flawed to say the least (it quotes, for instance, the Scottish “addiction” to tax and spend) and has been widely discredited. Greece was an economic basket case and bears no resemblance to the Scottish scenario.

There you have it friend. Not a single point you have made stands scrutiny. I appreciate and welcome your right to input and put forward arguments but at least “do the math” before committing – that way you might realise that you will have no bill to pay.

Very well said, As a firm and long standing supporter of independence, I nevertheless appreciate that there can be sound and logical arguments in favour of the Union albeit ones that have become less convincing since the decision taken to leave not just the EU but the Single Market and the Customs Union.

The trouble with Laurence is that he is incapable of understanding these arguments, he is certainly incapable of making them and instead is only capable of peddling and recycling Daily Mail headlines. Intelligent Unionists, and I accept there are many of them. acknowledge that there is no reason why Scotland should be unique among resource rich and technically advanced small European nations in being fiscally incapable of managing our own affairs and prospering on our own terms.

Very little that Laurence says ever bears scrutiny but, that said, the site would still be a duller and somewhat less amusing place without his 'input,.

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Kingsmill I respect your point of view, however it is not relevant as you are one of the romantics I was referring too

Believe what you want too, whatever you feel I am sure like the Pied Piper you will get countless followers

I feel following recent events that the First Minister and SNP leader was frit to go to her conference without any stance on this issue

I for one don't want to show my passport at the border, and border controls there will be because of the threat  of migration of foreign nationals entering Scotland and then going to England. We may even get a Trump wall.

This nationalistic fervour to which you espouse can only end in disaster, I am sure you know that  .

The bottom line will always be Scotland cannot afford to go it alone. The worst synedria  Holyrood will be taking orders from Berlin.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Laurence said:

Kingsmill I respect your point of view, however it is not relevant as you are one of the romantics I was referring too

Believe what you want too, whatever you feel I am sure like the Pied Piper you will get countless followers

I feel following recent events that the First Minister and SNP leader was frit to go to her conference without any stance on this issue

I for one don't want to show my passport at the border, and border controls there will be because of the threat  of migration of foreign nationals entering Scotland and then going to England. We may even get a Trump wall.

This nationalistic fervour to which you espouse can only end in disaster, I am sure you know that  .

The bottom line will always be Scotland cannot afford to go it alone. The worst synedria  Holyrood will be taking orders from Berlin.

 

 

That certainly confirms all that davie rather eloquently says.

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Well, while the actions of the Westminster government in wholly undermining the devolution settlement without a debate or a vote of any kind is an outrage and an affront to democracy, it is, of course; entirely legal. Evidence, if any were needed, that power devolved is power cynically retained.

It is beyond surreal but sadly a fact that the future of the entire United Kingdom is being driven by the mysoginist, homophobic and biggotted extreme fundamental Christian theocrats of the DUP and those that were until very recently, with every justification, regarded as the lunatic right wing fringe of the Tory party.

Indepependence will, of course, have its challenges but we need to leave this rudderless ship before it sinks entirely.

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Devolution is a joke anyway, either you want to take responsibility for your and your family's future or you hand it over to Rees-Mogg, Boris et al.

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On 3/17/2017 at 3:10 PM, Laurence said:

The worst synedria  Holyrood will be taking orders from Berlin.

Sounds good to me, we might finally get a decent transport system.  

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17 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Sounds good to me, we might finally get a decent transport system.  

Thanks to the recent SNP governments the Highlands are getting a greatly improved transport system without any input from Berlin and certainly none from London.

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Big fan of the U Bahn and the S Bahn.  Still puts Scotland's railways to shame.

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9 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

Thanks to the recent SNP governments the Highlands are getting a greatly improved transport system without any input from Berlin and certainly none from London.

You mean apart from the massive subsidy from English taxpayers of Scotland’s public spending, without which this project probably wouldn’t be happening any time soon?! 

Little point bitching about the flaws of being in the UK when the person who has the power to do something about it has backtracked and doesn’t look like delivering the previously promised 2nd referendum.

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9 hours ago, Yngwie said:

You mean apart from the massive subsidy from English taxpayers of Scotland’s public spending, without which this project probably wouldn’t be happening any time soon?! 

Little point bitching about the flaws of being in the UK when the person who has the power to do something about it has backtracked and doesn’t look like delivering the previously promised 2nd referendum.

Once the enormous capital costs of projects like Crossrail, HS2 and the tens of billions involved in renewing Trident are factored out an independent Scotland would have an annual budget deficit in per capita terms very similar to that of the United Kingdom has at present with the advantage of being back in the European union very quickly and with the ability to find tune the economy for the benefit of the country rather than in the interests of the Home Counties.

Edited by Kingsmills
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Amazing how tired and impotent the 'subsidy junkies' argument now reads within the current political climate. Dwarfed by issues like the truly dire treatment of the devolution settlement which we are witnessing 

The most destructive threat to the Union of the Uk comes from the people who supposedly support it with the most fervour, the Conservative party. Something the Daily Heil and all the other London based newspapers that have hegemony up here forget to tell their elderly readers when they're not screaming about migrants or giving out free bunting. As newspapers are dramatically in decline, online, people are able to see a far more relevant/telling picture 

More people see Scotland's economic future being better under its own control than the calamitous, trumpian vision for a brave new Brexit Britain 

IMG_9539.JPG.79a1251c6e2fbfa095f6e1dca21a8b83.JPG

The Scottish parliament is very popular in Scotland, with those wishing to abolish it down to a tiny 8%. With 15 minutes of 'debate' (filibustered by a Tory minister not elected within Scotland no less) the UK government's utter contempt for devolution has been laid bare in a remarkable fashion. One Tory's cry of "suicide" in the chamber following the SNP leader's question as to what his members could do, reinforces this.

It's no surprise then that the snp membership has gained over 7000 since Wednesday or that figures like the editor behind the Daily Record's 'Vow' have come out in favour of independence. 

People want neighbours, not sneering masters. People also want their parliament to be treated with respect, especially when it's cross party consensus votes against a bill which destroys devolution conventions and (even according to Tory numbers) will have a negative impact on our economy 

"What about the respect for the democratic vote of 2014!?" Some may say.... well where has been the respect for the very promises that won that vote? Where's the respect for the 'worlds most powerful devolved parliament' promise or respect for 'if you vote Yes you'll be out of Europe! A no vote is the only guarantee".

Time for Scotland to parachute from this particular nosedive

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12 minutes ago, CaleyCol said:

Where's the respect for the 'worlds most powerful devolved parliament' promise

This is another line you see people (often Tories) come out with.  It's simply untrue.  It's not a 'powerhouse parliament'.

Edited by Renegade
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30 minutes ago, Renegade said:

This is another line you see people (often Tories) come out with.  It's simply untrue.  It's not a 'powerhouse parliament'.

Less power than a Canadian Province or a Swiss Canton who at least are afforded respect by their federal governments.

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2 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

Less power than a Canadian Province or a Swiss Canton who at least are afforded respect by their federal governments.

That's what I was referring to.  Less power than any of the Canadian provinces, less power than any state or territory of America, less power than any state of Australia, less power than the Tyndwald of the Isle of Man, less power than the devolved parliament of Greenland (population 56,000), less powerful than the devolved parliament of the Faroe Islands (population 49,000) and less power than the devolved parliament of the Aland Islands (population 29,000).  It's not one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world.  It's probably barely in the top hundred.

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5 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

Once the enormous capital costs of projects like Crossrail, HS2 and the tens of billions involved in renewing Trident are factored out an independent Scotland would have an annual budget deficit in per capita terms very similar to that of the United Kingdom has at present with the advantage of being back in the European union very quickly and with the ability to find tune the economy for the benefit of the country rather than in the interests of the Home Counties.

The usual nationalist cherry picking and warped manipulation of figures in an attempt to mask the irrefutable truth. The SNP Scottish Government’s own figures show that the public finances here are an absolute basket case with one of the worst per capita deficits the developed world has seen in modern times. 

For 16/17 Scotland’s public spending was £71bn versus revenue of £58bn. A modest deficit is normal and sustainable but a mismatch of that scale is not. If we no longer want to have the shortfall covered by English taxpayers it would mean either slashing public spending or raising our taxes further, both of which would have adverse economic consequences.

There are some very valid reasons to consider independence but until there is a credible solution to this issue the nationalists will never win the argument - and I think Sturgeon is smart enough to know this, hence the ongoing sabre rattling without actually making the call that the hardcore supporters crave.

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On 6/16/2018 at 3:59 PM, Yngwie said:

The usual nationalist cherry picking and warped manipulation of figures in an attempt to mask the irrefutable truth. The SNP Scottish Government’s own figures show that the public finances here are an absolute basket case with one of the worst per capita deficits the developed world has seen in modern times. 

For 16/17 Scotland’s public spending was £71bn versus revenue of £58bn. A modest deficit is normal and sustainable but a mismatch of that scale is not. If we no longer want to have the shortfall covered by English taxpayers it would mean either slashing public spending or raising our taxes further, both of which would have adverse economic consequences.

There are some very valid reasons to consider independence but until there is a credible solution to this issue the nationalists will never win the argument - and I think Sturgeon is smart enough to know this, hence the ongoing sabre rattling without actually making the call that the hardcore supporters crave.

I'm inclined to agree about the cherry picking, because I have always thought that trying to give the impression that money we hand over to Westminster is specifically going to London and the South's infrastructure embellishments is illogical. I think that is pointless anyway, when you just need to say that, of that £71 billion of public spending , the amount spent in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland, was  approx £37.5 billion (ie  the Scottish budget, including £24 billion Block Grant, adjusted for SRIT etc), of which £34 billion is spent by  the SG on the devolved responsibilities, and the orher £3.5 billion or so is for NHS/Public Service pensions and directly funded bodies, if we add £18 billion in Westminster direct payments on State pensions etc, it makes a total of £55.5 billion against the Scottish revenue you quote. 

The rest of the £71 billion goes to pay what westminster charges us for. and spends for Scotland  ..because only one devolved competence doesn't have at least one Westminster finger in the pie...Housing and Local Communities. So we pay £7 billion towards Defence, International Services and National Debt Interest which are reserved responsibilities,  and the rest of the difference goes in payments to Westminster departments, like the Home Office for Border Control, Transport for Network Rail etc for whatever (and the people we are helping to pay with that contribution are paying tax into the "English" tax system, mostly....not into the Scottish one.).

Ireland spent about 68.9 billion Euros (about £60 billion at today's rates) running a whole independent country in  2016-2017, including debt payments of 6.3 million Euros on debt of around 201 billion Euros (and what have we had to spend in Scotland every year from our £3 + billion annual contribution to the UK debt mountain?)  and EU contributions of 2.3 billion Euros and a couple or so billion Euros on Defence and Foreign Affairs (we pay more to Westminster for International Services than Ireland spends on Foreign Affairs), and has a lower debt to GDP ratio than the UK.  So why does everybody seem to think it would be so damned impossible for Scotland to at least manage to do that?  It isn't as if we have the safe broad shoulders of the UK to lean on any more, Brexit Britain has put paid to that...and the status quo we voted for in 2014 is long gone, never to return. 

There is uncertainty whichever way we bounce...but more uncertainty in a Brexited UK than in an independent Scotland, I suspect....and most certainly worse Government....you mightn't like all that the SNP does...I don't like all of it myself.....but you can't deny they are a sight more competent than the current UK Government...yet the Tories are still ahead in the polls  for the next UK Election. Go figure!

Edited by Oddquine
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14 hours ago, Oddquine said:

I'm inclined to agree about the cherry picking, because I have always thought that trying to give the impression that money we hand over to Westminster is specifically going to London and the South's infrastructure embellishments is illogical. I think that is pointless anyway, when you just need to say that, of that £71 billion of public spending , the amount spent in Scotland by Scotland for Scotland, was  approx £37.5 billion (ie  the Scottish budget, including £24 billion Block Grant, adjusted for SRIT etc), of which £34 billion is spent by  the SG on the devolved responsibilities, and the orher £3.5 billion or so is for NHS/Public Service pensions and directly funded bodies, if we add £18 billion in Westminster direct payments on State pensions etc, it makes a total of £55.5 billion against the Scottish revenue you quote. 

The rest of the £71 billion goes to pay what westminster charges us for. and spends for Scotland  ..because only one devolved competence doesn't have at least one Westminster finger in the pie...Housing and Local Communities. So we pay £7 billion towards Defence, International Services and National Debt Interest which are reserved responsibilities,  and the rest of the difference goes in payments to Westminster departments, like the Home Office for Border Control, Transport for Network Rail etc for whatever (and the people we are helping to pay with that contribution are paying tax into the "English" tax system, mostly....not into the Scottish one.).

Ireland spent about 68.9 billion Euros (about £60 billion at today's rates) running a whole independent country in  2016-2017, including debt payments of 6.3 million Euros on debt of around 201 billion Euros (and what have we had to spend in Scotland every year from our £3 + billion annual contribution to the UK debt mountain?)  and EU contributions of 2.3 billion Euros and a couple or so billion Euros on Defence and Foreign Affairs (we pay more to Westminster for International Services than Ireland spends on Foreign Affairs), and has a lower debt to GDP ratio than the UK.  So why does everybody seem to think it would be so damned impossible for Scotland to at least manage to do that?  It isn't as if we have the safe broad shoulders of the UK to lean on any more, Brexit Britain has put paid to that...and the status quo we voted for in 2014 is long gone, never to return. 

There is uncertainty whichever way we bounce...but more uncertainty in a Brexited UK than in an independent Scotland, I suspect....and most certainly worse Government....you mightn't like all that the SNP does...I don't like all of it myself.....but you can't deny they are a sight more competent than the current UK Government...yet the Tories are still ahead in the polls  for the next UK Election. Go figure!

Very well said indeed. Impossible to disagree with any of it.

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17 hours ago, Oddquine said:

... I have always thought that trying to give the impression that money we hand over to Westminster is specifically going to London and the South's infrastructure embellishments is illogical ...

... and very probably incorrect, too.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ebd5350-3f8f-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-and-the-south-east-effectively-provide-subsidies-to-rest-of-britain-2017-5

I haven't been in London very often since I stopped working at the end of 2015, but the London "Evening Standard" newspaper regularly used to bemoan the fact that London was subsiding the rest of the UK.

In fact, given the population, politics, economy and indeed history of London - always powerful enough to hold sway over monarchs and parliaments - there is an interesting case to be made for independence for London.

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2 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

... and very probably incorrect, too.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ebd5350-3f8f-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-and-the-south-east-effectively-provide-subsidies-to-rest-of-britain-2017-5

I haven't been in London very often since I stopped working at the end of 2015, but the London "Evening Standard" newspaper regularly used to bemoan the fact that London was subsiding the rest of the UK.

In fact, given the population, politics, economy and indeed history of London - always powerful enough to hold sway over monarchs and parliaments - there is an interesting case to be made for independence for London.

 London doesn't subsidise the UK...UK borrowing subsidises the UK and we all share in paying for that....that's what an annual budget deficit means.  Anyway, there are three regions which have income over expenditure surpluses, not just London, the East and South East also have surpluses, although I suspect they also don't have annual accounts which add a share of UK debt, a share of UK defence, the annual maintenance and running of an English Parliament and its dedicated MPs  or the whole funding of the infrastructure built in London, so much of which is deemed to be of benefit to the whole UK, even though it isn't, in order that the taxpayer pays a share. 

It is unsurprising that London has the highest income in the UK, anyway, because pretty much everything in the UK ends up in London .....but what would go if it became an independent state?  Would rUK continue to  have the UK/English Parliament there and the Government Cabinet offices/Departments with all the highest paid jobs, and the 18.5% of UK civil servants (78,000+ London taxpayers, many of them highly paid taxpayers) employed there? Would rUK pay a large chunk of the maintenace costs of Westminster, Buck House, Tower of London etc?  Would the UK public sector employers who employ around 600,000 people in London still be in London as an independent country? And if London was an independent country outside the EU, would it still have the same reach for selling their financial and other professional services?  And would they be able to afford to allow big businesses to dodge tax in London as they currently turn a blind eye to in the UK?

If they could be sure of keeping what they have, then they probably could be independent, but could they keep what they already have without being the Capital of the UK, and sooking doon to London most of the UK companies head offices and their profits to the head offices of the banks?  London itself doesn't produce much that is tangible and exportable so I suspect their import/export statistics re food and "things" would struggle as much as England's does now, even with London's exported services and Scotland trade surplus.   Independence for London is an interesting idea, though.

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8 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

... and very probably incorrect, too.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ebd5350-3f8f-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

http://uk.businessinsider.com/london-and-the-south-east-effectively-provide-subsidies-to-rest-of-britain-2017-5

I haven't been in London very often since I stopped working at the end of 2015, but the London "Evening Standard" newspaper regularly used to bemoan the fact that London was subsiding the rest of the UK.

In fact, given the population, politics, economy and indeed history of London - always powerful enough to hold sway over monarchs and parliaments - there is an interesting case to be made for independence for London.

Let's hear it then.

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I said there was a case to be made - I didn't say that I was going to make it!   Google for "London independence" and you'll find plenty of material. There was an upsurge in activity after London voted 60-40 to stay in the EU.

I agree that it's a non-starter, but it's worth looking at both sides of the argument, to see how the running of a large urban area - and I'm thinking of others such as the West Midlands, as well as London - could be improved.

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2 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

I said there was a case to be made - I didn't say that I was going to make it!   Google for "London independence" and you'll find plenty of material. There was an upsurge in activity after London voted 60-40 to stay in the EU.

I agree that it's a non-starter, but it's worth looking at both sides of the argument, to see how the running of a large urban area - and I'm thinking of others such as the West Midlands, as well as London - could be improved.

London is also a lesson for any future independent Scotish Government...one it would be sensible to heed.. They mustn't put all their government eggs in the Edinburgh/Glasgow/Central belt  basket.  Edinburgh may well be the Capital city, but having only had the Government installed there for 19 of the last 314 years, they should be seriously considering decentralising goverenment departments and sharing the jobs  around the country...or else Edinburgh will just become a Scottish London, the rest of the Central Belt will become the Scottish equivalent of the South East and East of England.....and the periphery areas, like the Highlands and Borders will be left as far behind as Scotland has been by the Westminster Government.

With the ease of communication such as video conferencing, for example, there is no longer any requirement for  everything to be concentrated in one city. They have made a start with splitting the DWP between  Glasgow and Dundee, but why is Fergus Ewing's Department not based in Inverness with peripheral offices in the Borders and Caithness, for example?  Everything doesn't have to be where the decisions are made...the organs of implementation of decisions made by Cabinets/Parliament can be spread about a bit. 

Centralisation of everything is what produces monsters like London....and if Scotland emulates Westminster in the centralisation stakes, we are heading for a North/South/Edinburgh (and the  Central Belt) divide as bad as the Scotland/Westminster divide we have now.

 ( As an aside, I was reading somewhere that the only capital city which accounts for  a bigger share of a nation’s wealth than London, is Moscow, which according to us (or at least Westminster), is full of crooks, chancers and other undesirables.....unless they can bring lots and lots of  Moscow's money into London)

 

 

  • Agree 1

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