Crown and Inverness Union

[Renegade]

As was briefly mentioned on the 'No More Merger' thread, while quite rightly a lot of talk goes back to Inverness Thistle and Caledonian, what about the two 'forgotten' clubs within ICT's DNA?  There'll be no doubt that a lot of ICT fans who are completely unaware of them, but what exactly do we know about them? 

Both merged with Thistle at different stages (though the Thistle name was retained).  Now I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression Union played in red and their home ground was somewhere onto or close to the site that Millburn Academy now sits on.  Crown FC didn't *really* play in the Crown at all apparently.  Apparently they played at Needlefield Park which I presume is on where the railway runs through now, possibly across the road from where the Chieftain is now.

Anyone else with any insight into either of these clubs? 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Renegade

[Kingsmills]

I have never understood that both these clubs merged with Thistle but in fact merged in 1885 to form Thistle who then went on to win the first ever Highland League title.

I do, however, stand to be corrected.

[Renegade]

http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/Behind-The-Headlines/Sheep-grazed-on-Inverness-nursery-of-the-beautiful-game-2444.htm

This article here suggests that I was wrong.  It was Thistle that played in the Millburn Academy site and a merger with Crown allowed them to move to Kingsmills.  Presumably that means that Needlefield Park (where Wikipedia says they played) was somewhere up the Crown then and not on the railway line site...unless that was classed as the Crown at that time.  

I don't think Thistle were a merger of Union and Crown as apparently Union was formed in 1883 and didn't merge with Thistle until 95 (ten years after Thistle formed).  Thistle merged initially with Crown in 1889.

[TopSix]

Pretty common to have mergers. IIRC, Aberdeen FC is a merger of two clubs - one called Bon Accord, I think. And Ross County is the result of a merger of Dingwall Victoria and another club. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by TopSix

[Kingsmills]

Bon Accord had been on the lookout for someone to merge with ever since their 36-0 drubbing by Arbroath.

[Renegade]

12 minutes ago, TopSix said:

Pretty common to have mergers. IIRC, Aberdeen FC is a merger of two clubs - one called Bon Accord, I think. And Ross County is the result of a merger of Dingwall Victoria and another club. 

Aberdeen are a merger of three clubs.  An earlier club of the same name, Bon Accord and a team called Orion.  Elgin and Motherwell are also mergers.  It's pretty common worldwide as well.

[RednBlackComeback]

Inverness Thistle FC was founded in 1885 and their registered colours were red and black. It wasn't until 1889 that Crown FC was somehow incorporated into Inverness Thistle. Later still, in 1895-96, Union joined with Thistle.

Thistle did play initially on what is now the site of Millburn Academy. Crown played at Cameron Barracks, and Union played at Needlefield on/near Longman Road. Apparently the Needlefield pitch was a temporary measure until Kingsmills Park was prepared.

[Kingsmills]

Then I do indeed stand corrected. Thanks for that very interesting information.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The "Union and the Crown" sounds like a Sevco ditty. But can we put this into Nonsense (not good enuff fer General Nonsense). Lets all wait till Bannerman writes a fairy tale about it all. I also presume that DNA stands fer Definitely Not Applicable.

[Renegade]

On 3/2/2016 at 10:54 PM, RednBlackComeback said:

Inverness Thistle FC was founded in 1885 and their registered colours were red and black.

Is that necessarily true?  Sadly, the Historical Kits website doesn't give any information for the first five years, but seemingly between 1890 and 1894, they played in a rather fetching outfit of brown and white stripes and blue long shorts.  This was then followed by six years of red and black pinstripes before they changed again to blue and white stripes and then a rather ICT-esque red and blue striped jersey.  From then on they seemed to settle on red and black.

Interesting to note though, that while most fans nowadays consider Thistle to be red and black stripes, it wasn't always like that with predominantly red and occasionally black kits throughout the years.  One or two that caught my eye was red and black Blackburn style half and half kit in 1950 and the very smart 1969, black with red sleeves jersey.  I also noted that they played in a Sunderland-esque red and white stripes for a while in the late seventies as well.

The same site also reveals that while Caley did play in blue from the very start, it was originally a far lighter shade.  It also seems to show that the last Caley kit had more red in it than the first ICT kit!

Edited March 9, 2016 by Renegade

[Charles Bannerman]

According to the late Dennis Eames' "The Hub Of The Hill" published to mark Thistle's centenary in 1985, the club was founded in 1885 by a Diriebught miller by the name of Smith, possibly to provide his four sons with a means of playing. This publication, which I think RandB Comeback may also have been quoting, says that the colours were black and red from the very start, but I did also find evidence on the Historical Kits website that Renegade mentions that the colours were chocolate and white for a period until 1894. (Chocolate seems to have been a fairly popular colour in these days and it also appeared in the original colours of Forres Mechanics in the mid 1880s.) I have often wondered if there was any Glenurquhart connection with Jags since Glenurquhart Shinty Club, also founded in 1885, have always played  and still do play in black and red - currently verticals.

Thistle's original ground was indeed also at Diriebught and I wonder if Mr Smith owned it? To be specific, it was on the site currently occupied by the new Millburn Academy, formerly the Royal Academy/Millburn playing fields. In that case I wonder if any early Thistle players were ever infected by tetanus since it was in the ground at least by the 60s? Ask Dodo Sinclair. He contracted it there!

Different accounts, including that of Dennis Eames and Caley centenary historian Alex Main, seem to offer somewhat different accounts of the roles of Crown and Union but it would appear that Crown were "absorbed" by Thistle in 1889 whereas Union were founder members of the Highland League with Thistle and finished fifth of the seven teams in the inaugural championship which was won by Thistle in 1894. However by something like 1896, Union in some way joined forces with Inverness Thistle in a further merger to form a club called...... Inverness Thistle.

Consequently it can be seen that Inverness Thistle, a century on, were more successful than Crown or Union had been in maintaining some of their earlier identity when becoming involved in an unequal merger and were not hoist with their own petard in 1994!

A more detailed account of the early history of Inverness football can be found in the added preliminary chapter (2011) in the online version of Against All Odds which can be found on this CTO site.

[Sneckboy]

I've just discovered that a new local amateur club has was formed last month, called Inverness Thistle!
They'll be playing in the 'Inverness & District Amateur League' which is soon to start. They've also entered the Highland Amateur Cup, and have been drawn away to Portree Juniors in the last 64.
It appears they'll start in the 1st Division (which I think is the 2nd tier), as they're effectively the 'old' Scotrail team, who would have been playing in that division.

Although, on their Facebook, they clearly state they're a new club,https://www.facebook.com/invernessthistleafc/timeline?ref=page_internal, they do appear to be adopting the red-and-black stripes and a very similar badge to the former Inverness Thistle.

But, good luck to them - 'running' an amateur team requires time and sacrifice.
And, although I was a 'Jaggie', this project doesn't interest me in the slightest. I won't be down the Bught Park on a Thursday night watching them - it's all a bit too gimmicky for me!
I'm content with my memories of the proper, old, Inverness Thistle!

Edited March 21, 2016 by Sneckboy

[Renegade]

You are correct, it's a rebranding of the old Scotrail team who've rebranded after Abellio refused to fund them.  Seemingly they've gone with the Thistle AFC title due to some of the players playing for the real Thistle at youth level.

There's also a Caley in the Welfare League system as well.  It isn't though a refusenik phoenix club, rather the pub team for the Caledonian bar!  There's a Citadel somewhere as well.

Also begs the question, do ICT still own the rights to the Thistle name and other things? I would have thought they would.

[Sneckboy]

Yeah, I'd have thought so, too.
Obviously, we're known as 'Caley Thistle' or 'Inverness' and sometimes our 'Sunday best', Inverness Caledonian Thistle, but is that the official name?
What is 'The Inverness Thistle and Caledonian Football Club Limited'....?

[Renegade]

My understanding is the true name of the company is 'Inverness Thistle and Caledonian' which trades and plays under the name Inverness Caledonian Thistle.  I'd assume the club would own the rights to all the different titles and that of the old clubs.

[old caley girl]

27 minutes ago, Renegade said:

My understanding is the true name of the company is 'Inverness Thistle and Caledonian' which trades and plays under the name Inverness Caledonian Thistle.  I'd assume the club would own the rights to all the different titles and that of the old clubs.

I may be wrong but I kinda remember that someone registerd Caledonian before ICT could? 

May have dreamt that tho.....lol 

[The Mantis]

3 hours ago, old caley girl said:

I may be wrong but I kinda remember that someone registerd Caledonian before ICT could? 

May have dreamt that tho.....lol 

Maybe you're thinking of web domain names?

[old caley girl]

9 hours ago, TheMantis said:

Maybe you're thinking of web domain names?

My memory is rubbish however I remember Caledonian FC playing in the welfare league just after the merger. There was some issues with name I think, it may well have been sorted out tho? 

[Kingsmills]

Whatever the legal status, I would be surprised and disappointed if the club had any issues with teams called either Caledonian or Thistle playing in the local welfare or amateur leagues. Has no detriment to our club at all and keeps those famous old names alive.

[Alex MacLeod]

14 hours ago, Renegade said:

My understanding is the true name of the company is 'Inverness Thistle and Caledonian' which trades and plays under the name Inverness Caledonian Thistle.  I'd assume the club would own the rights to all the different titles and that of the old clubs.

The football team is Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC and the company that runs the team is Inverness Thistle and Caledonian FC Limited. I have no clue about copyright of former names though.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I feel that Caledonian FC would be acceptable but the use of Inverness and any other associated name - either Inverness Caledonian or Inverness Thistle - should not be allowed. I could accept Thistle FC.

[The Mantis]

A message from Kenny Jackson saying that Caledonian AFC are playing Inverness Thistle at the Bught on April 9th at 2pm. Looking for support and hoping to get a race night organised.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

This could be a rise from the grave just like Wimbledon.

[Charles Bannerman]

20 hours ago, TheMantis said:

A message from Kenny Jackson saying that Caledonian AFC are playing Inverness Thistle at the Bught on April 9th at 2pm. Looking for support and hoping to get a race night organised.

Have Caledonian AFC got Urquhart registered this time?

I'm not sure about rights to names since I'm also not sure whether or not the original clubs were ever wound up in the end. I also wonder what the copyright situation is regarding a name, especially as neither of the originals would have remained registered with the SFA.