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Kingsmills

Better Together ?

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" Better Together" we were promised less than two years ago. An independent Scotland risked losing it's place in the EU we were lied to.

Now, less than two years later, we face the prospect of being dragged out of the largest free trade block in the world into economic and socio political isolation despite almost two thirds of our nation and each and every local authority area in the land voting without exception to remain in.

Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown et al, what do you 'vow' now ?

Better together ? Aye right !

Edited by Kingsmills
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36 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

" Better Together" we were promised less than two years ago. An independent Scotland risked losing it's place in the EU we were lied to.

Now, less than two years later, we face the prospect of being dragged out of the largest free trade block in the world into economic and socio political isolation despite almost two thirds of our nation and each and every local authority area in the land voting without exception to remain in.

Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown et al, what do you 'vow' now ?

Better together ? Aye right !

"Aghast, Aberdeenshire" has indeed not taken long to emerge!

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Ah thought the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was to vote no in 2014?:blink:

And these British separatists, are they cuddly, enlightened, forward thinking separatists, as opposed to the wee, ratty, grievance monger Scottish ones?:ponder:

All very confusing, this.

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So the Mel Gibson wing of the SNP - delighted at having "lost" - will now be demanding a second separation vote, this time to see if we want to create an economic EU/nonEU disconnect and similar political disconnect with our biggest trading partner and with it, trading tariffs, Schengen/nonSchengen passport controls and customs posts on the border? And all that alongside an oil industry which has long since gone t!tsup.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Cameron has resigned. So, together with a plunging pound, a plummeting stock market and loss of access to our largest market we face the prospect of a Boris Johnston led executive.

Better and better and better together....interesting times ahead.

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2 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

An independent Scotland risked losing it's place in the EU we were lied to.

That wasn't actually a lie at all.

An independent Scotland would only gain entry to the EU if it met all the conditions stipulated by the EU (likely to include adopting the Euro and paying higher membership fees than the UK's deal). A genuine risk, not a lie. That remains the case as much today as it was then.

That aside, I absolutely cannot believe that this vote has gone the way it has, I am stunned.

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12 minutes ago, dougiedanger said:

We wiz duped!!

This seems to have quickly become a sentiment shared with "Pure Dead Bilin', Drumchapel" and Alex Salmond who this morning - with that ridiculous mid-sentence giggle fully restored - gave an interview peppered with pointed references to "Nicola Sturgeon" and what she must now do. He clearly realises that she is stuck between the rock of the Mel Gibsoners' demand for a second vote on separation and the hard place of the likelihood that they would lose it - an awkward situation which Salmond can presumably exploit in an attempt to get his old job back. Meanwhile more discerning nationalists (if you pardon that oxymoron) take a more realistic view.

It seems that, after a big drop, the FTSE has taken something of a bounce - led by companies selling blue and white face paint.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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This isn't the "England out of Europe" scenario I was hoping to see this week!

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Even JK Rowling hinting she would support indyref2, maybe the penny is dropping for some.

Ah'm just glad we are still better together with Nige and Boris and all those good egg separatists.

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3 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

 

despite almost two thirds of our nation and each and every local authority area in the land voting without exception to remain in.

Whilst the 62% result in Scotland is indeed pretty clear, it's interesting to note that over 2m of us voted to remain in the UK but less than 1.7m voted to remain in the EU. I suppose it implies that we are less bothered about this one.

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3 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

" Better Together" we were promised less than two years ago. An independent Scotland risked losing it's place in the EU we were lied to.

Now, less than two years later, we face the prospect of being dragged out of the largest free trade block in the world into economic and socio political isolation despite almost two thirds of our nation and each and every local authority area in the land voting without exception to remain in.

Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown et al, what do you 'vow' now ?

Better together ? Aye right !

Predictable, but wholly inaccurate.  The point about the EU issue in the independence referendum was not about Scotland's long term place in Europe but about how Scotland would take it's place in Europe following separation from the UK.  It is the UK which is the member state and if Scotland were to separate from the UK then, so the argument went, Scotland would no longer be part of the EU as it was no longer part of the member state that is a part of Europe.  Scotland, as a newly independent country would therefore need to apply to join the EU and if accepted, there would be no guarantee that its terms of membership would be as favourable as the UKs.  For instance, an Independent Scotland might be required to use the Euro.  That was a perfectly valid argument and it was important voters were made aware that EU membership was not guaranteed but might need to be applied for.

What was not in doubt was that if an independent Scotland was not allowed automatic entry into the EU, it would be accepted if it applied to join.  It would be unthinkable that a country like Scotland with it's long history of links with continental Europe would not be willingly accepted into the EU.  

Remember too, that the referendum took place against a backdrop of growing expectations of a UK referendum on EU membership where it was clear that the outcome was far from certain. For anybody voting in the Independence referendum whose main priority was for Scotland's future to be in the EU, it was absolutely clear that a YES vote was the best way of achieving that.

For me, the tragedy in terms of democratic process in all this is that the two referendums were the wrong way round.  Had we voted on the UK's membership of the EU first, then things would have been clearer for the independence referendum and there could be no excuses for a re-run.  Such major constitutional questions really should be addressed just once in a generation at most and we should accept the democratic will of the people.  

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12 minutes ago, Yngwie said:

Whilst the 62% result in Scotland is indeed pretty clear, it's interesting to note that over 2m of us voted to remain in the UK but less than 1.7m voted to remain in the EU. I suppose it implies that we are less bothered about this one.

I'm not sure about less bothered. I think people are very bothered but since the result in Scotland seemed the forgone conclusion it turned out to be in fact they were not motivated to vote in the same way overlooking the fact that the Scottish vote was less than 10% of the total.

As it turned out, even if there had been a 100% turnout north of the border and every single one of us voted to remain the vote would still have been leave. The price we pay for opting to remain within one union is losing our membership of a much larger and more influential one where, whatever it's faults, no single country is so large that it's views alone can dominate the other.

Edited by Kingsmills
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1 hour ago, Yngwie said:

This isn't the "England out of Europe" scenario I was hoping to see this week!

Personally, as our friends and neighbours, I hope that England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic all do well.

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1 minute ago, Kingsmills said:

Personally, as our friends and neighbours, I hope that England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic all do well.

I can agree with you on that one.  Well said!

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5 minutes ago, DoofersDad said:

I can agree with you on that one.  Well said!

Although, that said, I am developing a bit of a soft spot for Iceland. A country with a population not much larger than Aberdeenshire putting our own footballing efforts to shame.

Apologies for veering entirely off topic and on to football. Must be close season withdrawal syndrome .

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2 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

 The price we pay for opting to remain within one union is losing our membership of a much larger and more influential one where, whatever it's faults, no single country is so large that it's views alone can dominate the other.

What is missing there is the fact that all Scots are British and a majority of us recently expressed a desire to remain British. We are not, on the other hand, French or German or Italian etc etc. Not all Unions are equally relevant and the EU is massively less relevant to us than the UK us.

But of course the Nats are already jumping up and down about this terrible injustice which has been perpetrated over the last day or so. OK, Scotland was one part of the UK which voted to remain, but does that really mean that Scots are rabid Europeans? I don't think so. It's not a matter of life and death and quite honestly, I would imagine that a large number of Scottish Remain voters probably don't give too much of a sh!t either way and certainly don't think the difference warrants yet another round of political cr*p. SNP-speak of course - in the best Scottish traditions of perceived oppression and grievance - translates this into an injustice so terrible that they want us to be exposed to further years of uncertainty and saltire swathed UK Scexiteers roaming the streets and making a spectacle of themselves.

If there is another Scottish referendum, there will of course be the additional issues of "It WAS Scotland's oil", the straightforward transfer of powers over Scotland from Westminster to Brussels, bypassing Edinburgh altogether and the central question of a yes vote creating customs posts, trading tariffs and passport control on the only border Scotland has - which will become a frontier with a much larger country which we desperately need to be our biggest trading partner but which will become part of a massive EU/nonEU political disconnect just north of Berwick.

And if we get a second referendum on the basis of "changed circumstances" then, in the (still unlikely) event of that being a yes, we can then presumably expect Referendum 3 at the next change of circumstances - such as the implosion of a basket case economy and the government's inability to pay people's benefits etc? One other highly likely change of circumstance is that the current wave irrational, anger based eccentricity which is influencing recent voting patterns will pass - sooner rather than later I imagine. However it is still with us and this is what has been driving the recent world wide wave of political sympathy for political cranks and maverick causes such as Donald Trump, not so much Brexit but Brexit led by Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage....  and the current Scottish nationalist fad. It can't be too long now before the global electorate comes to its senses and assumes a sense of political maturity again.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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On the upside, just got a massive boost in the exchange rate for my trip in August :smile::smile::smile:

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3 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

As it turned out, even if there had been a 100% turnout north of the border and every single one of us voted to remain the vote would still have been leave. 

I'm afraid that's not remotely true! It would have been 53% Remain and a margin of over 2 million votes.

No need to apologise, though - the uneasy relationship nationalists have with numbers is well understood. :wink:

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3 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

I'm not sure about less bothered. I think people are very bothered 

Yes you would, wouldn't you?! Indeed I fully expect your general desire to become offended on other people's behalf to spread rapidly throughout the separatist community with respect to this "democratic outrage of the people of Scotland being dragged by England from the secure bosom of the EU" (or other equivalent grievance-mongering terminology).

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Personally, I cannot get over the audacity of Ms Sturgeon to assume that because someone has voted to stay in the EU, they would automatically wish to break up the UK in light of a leave vote. I wanted to stay in, but remaining part of the UK is far more important to me. As for Mr Salmond, if he wants to call the shots then he shouldn't have been so quick to throw his toys out of the pram when he lost the Scottish referendum The last thing the people of Scotland need is yet another neverendum referendum and all the expense and unsettling times that go with it. When are the SNP going to accept defeat and give up before they bankrupt our country?

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1 hour ago, CaleyHedgehog said:

Personally, I cannot get over the audacity of Ms Sturgeon to assume that because someone has voted to stay in the EU, they would automatically wish to break up the UK in light of a leave vote. I wanted to stay in, but remaining part of the UK is far more important to me. As for Mr Salmond, if he wants to call the shots then he shouldn't have been so quick to throw his toys out of the pram when he lost the Scottish referendum The last thing the people of Scotland need is yet another neverendum referendum and all the expense and unsettling times that go with it. When are the SNP going to accept defeat and give up before they bankrupt our country?

Excellent post CH. Because it suits the SNP grievance machine, they are trying to portray the majority of Scots who voted Remain as rabid Europhiles who are utterly indignant at the democratic betrayal which has been perpetrated upon them.:ohmy: I believe the reality is that a lot of people weren't too fussed either way in the best Scottish tradition of "mibbiz aye, mibbiz naw" and the fact that separation preferences shift very little when the European dimension is brought in tends to confirm that. That is also one reason why the "thinking Nats":lol: will be bricking tartan jobbies at the commitment to another Neverendum which, if they lose, will kill them stone dead for decades.

There is further evidence that Scotland is not as Europhilic as the SNP, for political expediency, would want to suggest in the very low turnouts in the Peoples' Caledonian Republics of Dundee and Glasgow. A large slice of SNP supporters, the Brexonats led by Jum Sullurs, who are conveniently swept under the carpet by SNP Central, are Leavers who I suspect may well have solved their dilemma by abstention (aka "dinnae vote Jimmy"). Abstaining absolves them from having to contemplate voting against their anti EU instincts to boost the nationalist grievance factor. Abstention is, in effect, half a Leave and half a Remain vote. If they had not voted tactically to boost the separation case and expressed their true opinions, then it may well have been much closer in Scotland and these low turnouts in the two most pro-separatist areas tend to support that viewpoint.

Interesting too that the German stock market has today plunged three times deeper than ours, which recovered two thirds of its early losses by the end of the day's trading. Maybe the Germans are more concerned than we are about the future of the EU - and with it their ability to dominate the continent economically. I don't know whether the French market - the CAC!! - has lived up to its name and also fallen very heavily but to do so would be just that bit hypocritical given that they are the only EU member the majority of whose voters poll in favour of us leaving. Remember also 1963 when de Gaulle - despite what we and the Americans, at great financial and human cost, had done for his country - said "non" when we first asked about joining the group of six Common Market countries, four of which we had liberated from the other two.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Someone, anyone please ban this trumpet Bannerman from the forum.  The man is an utter dick on every conceivable level. 

 

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3 minutes ago, ymip said:

Someone, anyone please ban this trumpet Bannerman from the forum.  The man is an utter dick on every conceivable level. 

 

My only problem with Charles is his habit of laughing at his own "jokes".

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