Matchday - Alloa v Inverness CT LC

[The Mantis]

44 minutes ago, Harry Chibber said:

 

For a young manager, I don't understand why Foran would not be using players he can rely on... like Draper.  Can't get my head round it to be honest... was wrong not to use him at Partick and wrong not to use him last night.  Shows no respect for a player that the team should be built around.  Tansey & Polworth played well against Arbroath on a big pitch, at home, where they had plenty of time on the ball but was he really expecting that sort of game at Partick and last night?!

 

Wasn't really surprised at the selection, probably saw this as an 'easier' fixture giving the players a chance to make amends for Saturday, always expected he would be starting Draper against County.

[+standbydave]

In reply to Elgin 1 just when did he see Devine as the playmaker. Said player must have had a real smirk across his face the weekend

[Kingsmills]

We need a bit of perspective. Without doubt, the last two results have been disappointing and some aspects of play have been concerning.

However, we have a young manager learning his trade and what's more a man who is committed to the city, with his family based in Inverness, and also fully committed to the club unlike his predecessor towards the end of his increasingly divisive tenure.

Our competitive record so far this season, albeit largely against lower league opposition, is P7 W3L2D1 with 15 goals for and 7 against.

Our opponents on Saturday have had a far worse start to the season than us so the opportunity is there for a large and vocal derby support to get fully behind the team and the manager and get our league campaign up and running.

What I would say is that if we are struggling by mid November there may be some merit in rejigging the coaching set up and bringing in a shrewdly experienced assistant in the mould of Donald Park. However, by then these teething problems may be behind us and such a move will hopefully be unnecessary.

 

[Elgin1]

56 minutes ago, standbydave said:

In reply to Elgin 1 just when did he see Devine as the playmaker. Said player must have had a real smirk across his face the weekend

Yeah, I meant Danny Williams - well spotted. I know the money thing is same old, same old, but how much was Hugh's on compared to Foran. Agreed Richie is committed to the Highlands, but commitment in any profession doesn't ensure you have quality at a time when you need it. So don't buy that one. Commitment to improve in your trade and stay is a different thing, as long as you improve. It's a really poor choice to leave out Draper, it's an insult to that stalwart in the game. I actually thought he was injured. It's not about who is coming in at this point, it's the dynamics of the team and communication that's the current issue.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Elgin1

[PerfICT]

Foran's naivity has definitely been evident in the last two games. In my view, leaving Draper on the bench on Saturday was an error. We all make mistakes, but it is important to learn from them. To then leave him on the bench again last night was foolish......to not have him starting on Saturday would be criminal. I am not saying that Draper is our saviour, but we all know that the Draper/Tansey combination in defensive midfield has been rock solid over the past few seasons, so why on earth would you split it up?

So, assuming Draper is fully fit, he must start alongside Tansey on Saturday. There are options ahead of them which could cause County problems - Doran always does well against them, so he must get some game time; Mulraney, King, Vigurs, Polworth all have differnt things to offer. Equally, County played 3 at the back last week, so we should consider playing 4-4-2 at least for some of the game. It's a steep learning curve for Richie!

Edited August 10, 2016 by PerfICT

[Elgin1]

44 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

We need a bit of perspective. Without doubt, the last two results have been disappointing and some aspects of play have been concerning.

However, we have a young manager learning his trade and what's more a man who is committed to the city, with his family based in Inverness, and also fully committed to the club unlike his predecessor towards the end of his increasingly divisive tenure.

Our competitive record so far this season, albeit largely against lower league opposition, is P7 W3L2D1 with 15 goals for and 7 against.

Our opponents on Saturday have had a far worse start to the season than us so the opportunity is there for a large and vocal derby support to get fully behind the team and the manager and get our league campaign up and running.

What I would say is that if we are struggling by mid November there may be some merit in rejigging the coaching set up and bringing in a shrewdly experienced assistant in the mould of Donald Park. However, by then these teething problems may be behind us and such a move will hopefully be unnecessar

Hee hee, hope you're not a Taylor Swift fan min!

[Charles Bannerman]

11 minutes ago, PerfICT said:

Foran's naivity has definitely been evident in the last two games.

A conclusion you are presumably able to arrive at as a result of being less naïve than the manager?

[Elgin1]

Does it honestly matter if a manager stays for four years or a manager stays for a year or two and leaves, it's the results that matter. Point here is I guess, Richie is an intelligent and formidable player, can't see him not learning quickly  from his one league cup game hiccup so far. Anyone know where Muttombya is these days?

[RiG]

Leaving Draper on the bench against Partick was a big surprise but as mentioned already we had just come off two very good performances in recent games. Saturday wasn't great but perhaps Foran thought that playing the same team last night would give them a chance to redeem themselves? Seems reasonable enough.

That said, I would really hope to see Draper start on Saturday.

[The Mantis]

1 hour ago, Elgin1 said:

Hee hee, hope you're not a Taylor Swift fan min!

Nah, James Taylor is more like his era

[Elgin1]

7 minutes ago, TheMantis said:

Nah, James Taylor is more like his era

Yeah, my great grandad liked him to :)

[Harry Chibber]

2 hours ago, TheMantis said:

Wasn't really surprised at the selection, probably saw this as an 'easier' fixture giving the players a chance to make amends for Saturday, always expected he would be starting Draper against County.

That's naïve of him if he did considering Alloa already beat County and topped their group.  We were talking about this being a tough game in the car on the way to the game so you would think Foran should have expected the same. Goodwin was in their 11 ffs.. there was always going to be a physical battle in the middle of the park, which neither Polworth or Tansey were interested in

That's the same starting 11 he's used in the last 3 games.. so why would you think that Draper would be kept back for the County game if he wasn't started against Partick or last night? Either he wants him in his first 11 or not.. didn't seem to be carrying a knock and wouldn't need rested so that's just down to his mis-management nothing else. 

[tm4tj]

Has this been our worst ever result? I'm struggling to think of any others that come close.

And before anyone throws in the old don't panic crap, I'm not panicking, but I am fekkin raging about the result.

[AlexJones]

Stay calm and believe in Richie. Alloa were always going to be a potential banana skin, especially on their astro turf pitch. Lower division teams are much more professional and technical than back in the day. Losing is disappointing, but hardly a fiasco. When we reached the Final of this competition recently, we did so only after scraping past Stenhousemuir on Penalties. Success and failure in Scottish football comes down to fine margins. Individual results mean little in isolation, it's long term trends that matter, and we don't have enough data to assess Richie yet.

As for the benching of Draper, I can recall him taking pelters for being worse than the proverbial man short in our opening games last season, particularly against Astra. People were even calling for Wedderburn to play ahead of him. Players have pre-season programmes tailored to their individual physiological requirements, it might just be that big Drapes is a naturally slow starter. Perhaps this is why he's being eased into competitive action. The insinuation that he's simply out of favour doesn't hold water. Foran will be fully aware he's the lynchpin of our team having played alongside him for years. Don't panic!  

 

[Elgin1]

1 hour ago, TheMantis said:

Nah, James Taylor is more like his era

Yeah, my great grandad liked him to :)

 

 

34 minutes ago, AlexJones said:

Stay calm and believe in Richie. Alloa were always going to be a potential banana skin, especially on their astro turf pitch. Lower division teams are much more professional and technical than back in the day. Losing is disappointing, but hardly a fiasco. When we reached the Final of this competition recently, we did so only after scraping past Stenhousemuir on Penalties. Success and failure in Scottish football comes down to fine margins. Individual results mean little in isolation, it's long term trends that matter, and we don't have enough data to assess Richie yet.

As for the benching of Draper, I can recall him taking pelters for being worse than the proverbial man short in our opening games last season, particularly against Astra. People were even calling for Wedderburn to play ahead of him. Players have pre-season programmes tailored to their individual physiological requirements, it might just be that big Drapes is a naturally slow starter. Perhaps this is why he's being eased into competitive action. The insinuation that he's simply out of favour doesn't hold water. Foran will be fully aware he's the lynchpin of our team having played alongside him for years. Don't panic!  

 

Mmmm, very diplomatic and analytical my friend. I think you should contact Richie and be on his coaching team  :)

[cif73]

12 hours ago, alternative maryhill said:

Very poor tonight. Going forward, Mulraney looked lightweight and on the rare occasion where he managed to get space to cross, his final ball was poor. King was slightly better, but the potential impact of both players seemed to be limited by the fact that they were played on the wrong wings - Mulraney, as a pacey left footer, should surely be allowed to use his pace to get to the bye-line and swing balls in with his left foot, while King contributed little from the left in the first half but looked a bit more effective when he was eventually switched to the right in the second. Where we really lost the game, though, was in the centre of the park: Polworth looked OK driving forward but both his and Tansey's distribution was poor, and neither seemed able to anticipate passes played into their opponents' feet or impose themselves physically; we at least had more of the play when Draper came on in the second half. We also allowed Alloa to push us back too deep in the first half in particular, and while they didn't create too many chances, there was too much scrappy, last ditch defending. McNaughton reads the game well, but his distribution was poor tonight, and he doesn't dominate opposing attackers the way Meekings can. As soon as Meekings is fit, he needs to come back into the team, and after tonight, Foran will hopefully also accept that we are a stronger team when Draper starts, whether it is Vigurs, Polworth or Mulraney who gives way. It was good to see Doran back as a second-half sub, although he didn't do a great deal, and Fisher had a few good touches and might be worth a start in place of Boden, who had a poor evening.

Some changes definitely needed for Saturday, starting with Draper being restored to the starting line-up; also, the players should remember to acknowledge the fans who travel to support them in these games; not one of them bothered to acknowledge a fairly healthy away support at the end of the game.              

Excellent, balanced analysis, alternative maryhill. Much better than my frustrated, late night rant. It was good to catch up with you at the game. By the way, that steward who encouraged you towards your seat became even more of an annoyance later on with his biased "commentary" on the game lol! I felt like telling him that a good steward is like a good ref ... they perform well when the focus of the game is not on them lol!     

[Harry Chibber]

4 hours ago, AlexJones said:

Stay calm and believe in Richie. Alloa were always going to be a potential banana skin, especially on their astro turf pitch. Lower division teams are much more professional and technical than back in the day. Losing is disappointing, but hardly a fiasco. When we reached the Final of this competition recently, we did so only after scraping past Stenhousemuir on Penalties. Success and failure in Scottish football comes down to fine margins. Individual results mean little in isolation, it's long term trends that matter, and we don't have enough data to assess Richie yet.

As for the benching of Draper, I can recall him taking pelters for being worse than the proverbial man short in our opening games last season, particularly against Astra. People were even calling for Wedderburn to play ahead of him. Players have pre-season programmes tailored to their individual physiological requirements, it might just be that big Drapes is a naturally slow starter. Perhaps this is why he's being eased into competitive action. The insinuation that he's simply out of favour doesn't hold water. Foran will be fully aware he's the lynchpin of our team having played alongside him for years. Don't panic!  

 

Alex ..  sorry but that's a load of rubbish.  If our players went out last night with that attitude its of little wonder we got beat ... by Alloa .... a team from 2 divisions lower than us ... in what is possibly our worst result since we were formed as a club.  It isn't acceptable for an SPFL team to lose to Alloa, as it wasn't acceptable to scrape past Stenhousemuir.  The fact our fans are defending that result or accepting failure just shows we are going backwards..  if it was Yogi we would be asking for his head right now.. that doesn't mean the same rules apply to Foran but he shouldn't escape criticism because he loves the city.  I am fully behind Foran as manager and want him to do well for ICT, what ICT fan wouldn't, but the writing is on the wall for this season already.  That wasn't a second team out on the pitch last night that was our best 11 as picked by Foran.  On occasions teams can get caught cold by underdogs but we had just lost the first game of the season against a comparable rival, we knew Alloa had quality because they beat County but there was absolutely no reaction from the team.  Either that is lack of quality, motivation or interest.

The club can't even afford sports analysts so who do you believe is creating the individual programme for Draper's "physiological requirements"?  He had the same time off as everyone else and started pre-season with the team, if he was injured fair enough but I saw no sign of that when he came on the park last night.  That was a decision made by Foran and he got it wrong.  No point in dressing it up as something else

We have consistently lost quality players year after year and the club's refusal to put money into the team is going to back fire big time this year.. that isn't panicking, that is being realistic.  Last year we finished bottom six after being a regular in the top 6, if you are going to sack the most successful manager in our history and replace him with a novice you need to back him financially and give the guy a chance. Vincent, Brill, Devine, Williams, Storey, Mutombo aren't players of enormous quality but they were all capable of challenging for a jersey.... that's after losing the load of players from the previous year... Shinnie, Watkins, Mckay, Christie... and whoever else.  Everyone was quick to jump on Yogi's back about his outbursts in the paper but who can blame him when you are rebuilding every season.

Sorry Alex that's not all aimed at you but we are in bad shape this season and now Foran is going to his first derby with massive pressure when you look at the next few fixtures -

Hearts at home, St Johnstone away, Celtic, Aberdeen ...

 

[Sir C the 3rd]

46 minutes ago, Harry Chibber said:

Alex ..  sorry but that's a load of rubbish.  If our players went out last night with that attitude its of little wonder we got beat ... by Alloa .... a team from 2 divisions lower than us ... in what is possibly our worst result since we were formed as a club.  It isn't acceptable for an SPFL team to lose to Alloa, as it wasn't acceptable to scrape past Stenhousemuir.  The fact our fans are defending that result or accepting failure just shows we are going backwards..  if it was Yogi we would be asking for his head right now.. that doesn't mean the same rules apply to Foran but he shouldn't escape criticism because he loves the city.  I am fully behind Foran as manager and want him to do well for ICT, what ICT fan wouldn't, but the writing is on the wall for this season already.  That wasn't a second team out on the pitch last night that was our best 11 as picked by Foran.  On occasions teams can get caught cold by underdogs but we had just lost the first game of the season against a comparable rival, we knew Alloa had quality because they beat County but there was absolutely no reaction from the team.  Either that is lack of quality, motivation or interest.

The club can't even afford sports analysts so who do you believe is creating the individual programme for Draper's "physiological requirements"?  He had the same time off as everyone else and started pre-season with the team, if he was injured fair enough but I saw no sign of that when he came on the park last night.  That was a decision made by Foran and he got it wrong.  No point in dressing it up as something else

We have consistently lost quality players year after year and the club's refusal to put money into the team is going to back fire big time this year.. that isn't panicking, that is being realistic.  Last year we finished bottom six after being a regular in the top 6, if you are going to sack the most successful manager in our history and replace him with a novice you need to back him financially and give the guy a chance. Vincent, Brill, Devine, Williams, Storey, Mutombo aren't players of enormous quality but they were all capable of challenging for a jersey.... that's after losing the load of players from the previous year... Shinnie, Watkins, Mckay, Christie... and whoever else.  Everyone was quick to jump on Yogi's back about his outbursts in the paper but who can blame him when you are rebuilding every season.

Sorry Alex that's not all aimed at you but we are in bad shape this season and now Foran is going to his first derby with massive pressure when you look at the next few fixtures -

Hearts at home, St Johnstone away, Celtic, Aberdeen ...

 

Excellent post. Its not panic mode just yet but it's Two poor results and performances. We're only in three comps this season and we're out of one already..... to a part time team from two divisions below. Thats not good regardless who the manager is.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Sir C the 3rd

[+bughtmaster]

I am quite sure Richie is hurting enough without all the **** being thrown at him on here. He is already encountering one of the frustrations ( getting the right players in) that J H had to suffer now this from ICTFC '' loyal supporters ''

The team is still in the transitory stage learning a vastly different form of football from what was drummed into them in their recent history. Every new manager experienced or not has to win over the dressing room, that isn't done overnight especially when there is a mixture of ex-mates and newbies which can breed new problems. that is just two of his problems.

 We are only two defeats, one in cup and one in league into his career. The potential is there in the players we already have, the manager has got spirit and determination, he will I'm sure get over the hurdles and have the team running smoothly and scoring goals before much longer.

Thinking back to early ICTFC days we seldom started seasons well but look where we are now so don't despair. Get behind the team and the manager, It's the bad times that support is needed most so give it now and let's help win on Saturday.

[Scotty]

I am sure Richie has broader shoulders than to take anything said on an internet forum to heart. He is clearly very passionate about what he wants to achieve at ICT but he is a new manager, learning his trade as it were, and taking the flak for a sh***y result is as much a part of the learning process as taking the plaudits for a 7-0 mauling of another team .... 

 

HarryChibber makes some very good points, and I would agree that our start has been less than acceptable, and that none of us want to see RF fail, but I would take issue with a few things

1. Dont think this is our worst result ever. Bad? absolutely, but worst? no. 
2. There's a couple of references to the club being unable to afford sports specialists or refusing to put money into the team. I have a simple question. Where is the money coming from ? As a club we make a six figure loss every single season unless we have a cup run or windfall of some description. This is not bad management of our finances, it is simple math based on our incomings and outgoings and low crowds. There are certain levels and standards we have to meet to play in the top league and the club have also been careful when it comes to other things that we might like (eg a streaming audio/video service) where costs may take away from the playing budget. The board run a very tight financial ship.  
3. It constantly winds me up that people only see one side of the story ... be that the so-called happy clappers, or indeed the doom and gloom merchants. There's a fine line between top and bottom six every season and although it is true to say we were in the bottom six last year we were not really in any danger of relegation. Also, when we lose players every year sometimes its because we just cant keep them either because they want more money than our finances can afford, because they themselves (or their agents) want to move, or yes, in some cases because the manager deems them surplus to requirements. its not always one-sided. 
4.  John Hughes wasnt sacked. He engineered his own way out after his working relationship with the chairman broke down. Not sure anyone but the chairman and JH and maybe a few others know the exact ins and outs of this but Craig Brewster remains the only manager we have sacked.  

 

[Charles Bannerman]

2 hours ago, Harry Chibber said:

We have consistently lost quality players year after year and the club's refusal to put money into the team is going to back fire big time this year.. that isn't panicking, that is being realistic. 

No it's not. It's living in cloud cuckoo land. How often does it need to be explained that the money simply isn't there - and if it was, it would indeed be prudently spent on the playing squad? You can't spend money you don't have and if you try to do so, you will soon go the way of Dundee, Motherwell, Rangers, Livingston etc. For the last 16 years the directors of Caley Thistle have - mercifully - been very aware of The Micawber Principle (as stated in Dickens' David Copperfield) and have at least ALMOST been able to put it into practice.

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."

But for the board's long term efforts to live by that principle, Caley Thistle would have long since gone the way it very nearly did in 1999-2000. I just don't understand how some fail to grasp the concept that you just can't go into the player market with closed eyes and open cheque book. You need to live within your means and if you don't you will soon head for the lower leagues or worse. It's a minor miracle that, with the income streams that have been available, Caley Thistle has been able to field a team which has done what it has. To have maintained an almost unbroken SPL/Premiership presence since 2004 on the kind of resources we are talking about is an incredible feat and you just have to laugh at these suggestions that they should just go and spend their way out of any problem.

Look at it an alternative way - if you want to be entertained by better players than the club's finances can currently afford, how much more would you be prepared to pay for tickets in order to obtain the improved product? I've already said elsewhere that the cost of running the club under its present, prudent regime is around £44 per bum on seat.

Tuesday night the worst result ever? I don't think so. Off the top of my head I could think of a League Cup defeat - at home - by Queens Park, a 5-1 defeat - at home - by Ross County, a 4-0 humiliation - at home - by Forfar at the end of D3 championship season and a complete stinker off the back of the Ballistic night, the details of which I forget. There are doubtless more.

Finally... those who have swung from the "Foran is Messiah" euphoria of the Dundee United and Arbroath outcomes and performances to the "Foran is the Devil Incarnate" doom and despair of Partick Thistle and Alloa should either acquire a sense of balance and proportion or a source of lithium!

Edited August 10, 2016 by Charles Bannerman

[alternative maryhill]

7 hours ago, cif73 said:

Excellent, balanced analysis, alternative maryhill. Much better than my frustrated, late night rant. It was good to catch up with you at the game. By the way, that steward who encouraged you towards your seat became even more of an annoyance later on with his biased "commentary" on the game lol! I felt like telling him that a good steward is like a good ref ... they perform well when the focus of the game is not on them lol!     

Cheers - it was good to see you too. To be fair to that steward, he did wish us a safe trip home on our way out, although he did look like he was suppressing a grin as he did so...

 

[PerfICT]

10 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

A conclusion you are presumably able to arrive at as a result of being less naïve than the manager?

Ooooh - cheeky, Mr Bannerman. I'm not actually having a pop at Richie - he's a rookie and will make mistakes as he learns the ropes, as we all do in our chosen careers. The point of the comment was to highlight the necessity for him to not compound the error in the next game by sticking to the same philosophy. I really think he's got a decent team together, barring perhaps a finisher, now it's up to him to shape the team into a winning formula. Nobody is suggesting it's easy and I'd no doubt make a horlicks of the job, but I'm entitled to my opinion.

[ictfcsince94]

I just green dotted Charles ...What 's going on with the world ?!

[Ronaldo]

What's going on the world is we are undefeated at home in the league this season, have faith.