caleyboy

Caley Jags Together

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If those currently on the committee, however well meaning or difficult their personal circumstances, have lost control of the situation or have got out of their depth then they need not be too proud to confess that that is the case and seek help from the many people with the best interests of the club and the supporters group at heart who are willing and able to help.

Please do so now before it it too late and the situation becomes irretrevable. 

Equally, those who have been critical, sometimes highly vocally so, should resist recrimination and act in a constructive and helpful manner.

Now is not the time for burying heads in the sand or for apportioning blame but for everybody to pull together to sort out this mess while we still can.

Edited by Kingsmills
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Well put.  It’s definitely about looking forward and that requires

a) CJT to facilitate the handover

b) those coming in to drive it forward

I’m assuming that at the EGM (which needs to be announced this week coming) along with all members, new members will be able to attend & join, the committee will make way for people who have the time/ability and that enough people of that sort will attend and put themselves forward.

 

Edited by Glover

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All I really want to do is cheer on my local football team so I read this forum as a good way of learning what is going on (or isn't!) but don't post as I feel there are many others better placed to discuss all the topics.  On this one however I would like to say that I agree with Robert (above) that given a chance I would sign up to be part or a member of CJT just because it's a way of lending support to the club and fanbase but also to keep  CJT alive. 

As a not practically or politically involved 'supporter ' (no Happy Clapper' comments please:wink:) I wouldn't jump forward to claim a place on the board or anything, I wouldn't have time or capability to be any use, but I would want to help keep going a body which holds a 10% voting right in the club.  The politics are alarming to read about, and it seems to me that it is important that a body involving grass roots fans and with the club's future at heart must be kept in a role where it can have influence.

 

 

 

 

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Caley Jags Together are currently working closely with Supporters Direct regarding the way forward.  We will be happy to share the findings just as soon as possible but rest assured we are aware of the implications of the current situation and will work hard to ensure that the voting right is protected.

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7 minutes ago, L_G said:

Caley Jags Together are currently working closely with Supporters Direct regarding the way forward.  We will be happy to share the findings just as soon as possible but rest assured we are aware of the implications of the current situation and will work hard to ensure that the voting right is protected.

Excuse my ignorance in this matter but who are Supporters Direct, what role do they play and do they have a website???

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LG:  I am sorry to say that this response is indicative of the rift that has been created by yourself and CJT.  Not only do you fail to respond or refer directly to any of my, or any other member’s posts, that do ask questions of CJT, but the use of the pronoun ‘we’ is slightly redundant (given that CJT consists of less than Liz & Cliff you having reportedly resigned at the AGM).  You can understand that few will ‘rest assured’ and take you at your word.  I remain concerned that this Panglossian post is dismissive, scant on detail and is typical of the  random platitudes, opaque assurances and wishy-washy actionables that has led to this mess in the first place.

Let me be clear, as a fan with no connection whatsoever to any CJT  member past nor present:

when is the EGM?

Edited by Glover
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I have been made aware of several different viewpoints both on here and via my personal email and whilst I have no interest in being put in the middle of the situation, it is something that needs to be addressed. Having been a former committee member of the supporters club many years ago, I know many of those involved quite well and have no doubt that every single one of them does have the interests of the club and the supporters at heart even if - in true committee fashion - viewpoints or methods may be different and personalities may clash. 

Without apportioning blame, and removing all personalities from the situation, it appears that the rule templates we received from Supporters Direct were old and out of date and initially rejected by the FCA/FSA. It then took a while to get the right forms from SD as they had personnel issues and when we did get them, it then took a further period of time to get them approved and/or signed by CJT. Eventually, the forms were sent back to FSA/FCA but although they were fine, they could not be approved as CJT had not submitted financial statements for a number of years. We were essentially 'struck off' because of that.  

Moving past all the history ... it seems we need to get 3 basic things sorted : Election of a viable committee, financial records brought into a state where they can be verified and submitted for approval, and the rules to be approved once the other two items are in place. Anything else is irrelevant and a time robber.  I will be back in Inverness over Christmas so I will definitely renew my lapsed membership if I can, and as I have said before, I will happily assist in whatever way I can in terms of maybe helping with getting things like forms and other bits and pieces online on here or elsewhere. Obviously I am not in a position to take on an official role from Canada but happy to help with things that can be done remotely like that. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Glover's post; personal, divisive and confrontational. Scotty's post immediately after, measured, non confrontational and constructive.

Only one of these approaches is likely to get us out of the difficult situation the supporters association finds itself in for whatever reason. Other than learning valuable lessons for the future, it's not important how we got here or who, if anyone may have been at fault. What is important is how and how quickly we move forward from where we are.

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Financial records are up to date as at year end 30/6/17 and the accounts have been professionally audited by a firm of accountants. So one less problem to fix. 

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Just a heads up before some people perhaps step over the line in their quest for an immediate reply from L_G. She has suffered a family bereavement in the last 24hours and it is unlikely you are going to see any posts from her for a while. As important a topic as this is, personal life has to take priority at times like this. 

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Just a heads up before some people perhaps step over the line in their quest for an immediate reply from L_G. She has suffered a family bereavement in the last 24hours and it is unlikely you are going to see any posts from her for a while. As important a topic as this is, personal life has to take priority at times like this. 

Absolutely this. Bill Shankley was entirely wrong.

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On 10/12/2017 at 5:40 PM, Glover said:

Good to know:  so, up to and not beyond the 19th there will be an announcement of when the EGM will be,  to take place between 25th Dec - 3rd January?

And what is the likelihood exactly of people in CJT actually complying with this timeframe and what happens if not?

That is my understanding of the rules.  What's more, there was an uncontested & accepted motion from the floor at the AGM for an EGM at the earliest opportunity.

I'll comment on your second question at the end.

On 11/12/2017 at 3:36 PM, Caleytrue said:

All I really want to do is cheer on my local football team so I read this forum as a good way of learning what is going on (or isn't!) but don't post as I feel there are many others better placed to discuss all the topics.  On this one however I would like to say that I agree with Robert (above) that given a chance I would sign up to be part or a member of CJT just because it's a way of lending support to the club and fanbase but also to keep  CJT alive. 

As a not practically or politically involved 'supporter ' (no Happy Clapper' comments please:wink:) I wouldn't jump forward to claim a place on the board or anything, I wouldn't have time or capability to be any use, but I would want to help keep going a body which holds a 10% voting right in the club.  The politics are alarming to read about, and it seems to me that it is important that a body involving grass roots fans and with the club's future at heart must be kept in a role where it can have influence.

Caleytrue, you are the same as the vast majority of fans....and that is entirely ok.  Football should be about turning up on a Saturday (or whatever other day TV or ridiculous winter midweek fixtures may dictate) to cheer on your team with friends, family etc....then enjoy the post match analysis when you get home, back to the pub and/or online here or wherever you might partake of a bit of social media chatter.

A Supporters Society, such as CJT, is a "Community Benefit" organisation.  As the name suggests, it exists to serve the community (made up of fans, club etc) and not (directly) the individual interests of it's members.  One of the listed objectives in the rules is to ensure that the club operates with good governance and that the club board looks after the fans, club's and community's interests.....just the same as any other rights/shareholder can/should do for themselves and the club.

They (CJT) have a duty to communicate with the community (and not just their members).  That should, in an ideal world, mostly be about letting people know everything is fine, but it is also needed when it's necessary to gather fan opinion or when some form of action is needed.....good or bad.  Beyond that, CJT also carry within their constitution the authority to strengthen their position in regards to the operation and ownership of the club and, in that regard, may seek to undertake fundraising for the purchase of shares, running campaigns, backing initiatives/projects etc.

Why join if your interests are being looked after regardless?  To do as you have said and support those who are actively working towards those ends, to ensure that those who represent the organisation (and your interests) operate with good governance and to be in a position to take part in any decision making that may be required from time to time.

The voting right of CJT actually sits at slightly above 10%.  In addition to the 10% voting right attached to the shares transferred from the old Members Club, they have purchased additional shares over the years....so they have been working to grow their influence, although not so much in the last 5 years or so.

On 11/12/2017 at 9:26 PM, L_G said:

Caley Jags Together are currently working closely with Supporters Direct regarding the way forward.  We will be happy to share the findings just as soon as possible but rest assured we are aware of the implications of the current situation and will work hard to ensure that the voting right is protected.

 

On 11/12/2017 at 9:37 PM, bughtmaster said:

Excuse my ignorance in this matter but who are Supporters Direct, what role do they play and do they have a website???

In regards to the above two quoted posts.....Supporters Direct (Scotland) are the umbrella organisation for Supporters Trusts.  They used to have a primary remit for helping club's fans set up their own trusts, and were very successful in doing so.  That remit has since shifted to one where their primary aim is helping Supporters Trust that are looking to obtain major stake in/ownership of their clubs.  Aside from the legislative inclusions that come with being registered as an Industrial and Provident Society, there is within CJT's rules, articles which require us to adhere to some of the guidelines and principles laid down by Supporters Direct.  It is not their (Supporters Direct) job to be running our, on anyone else's, Supporters Trust and I have concerns over the advice they (CJT) claim they are getting.  It's either completely wrong, or not based on being given all the facts.  For that reason I will be making contact with Supporters Direct in due course to seek some clarity from them....although, the last time they were contacted about claims of advice they were giving to CJT, they said they had no knowledge of working with them on anything!

Supporters Direct Scotland website - http://www.supporters-direct.scot/

On 12/12/2017 at 4:05 AM, Scotty said:

I have been made aware of several different viewpoints both on here and via my personal email and whilst I have no interest in being put in the middle of the situation, it is something that needs to be addressed. Having been a former committee member of the supporters club many years ago, I know many of those involved quite well and have no doubt that every single one of them does have the interests of the club and the supporters at heart even if - in true committee fashion - viewpoints or methods may be different and personalities may clash. 

Without apportioning blame, and removing all personalities from the situation, it appears that the rule templates we received from Supporters Direct were old and out of date and initially rejected by the FCA/FSA. It then took a while to get the right forms from SD as they had personnel issues and when we did get them, it then took a further period of time to get them approved and/or signed by CJT. Eventually, the forms were sent back to FSA/FCA but although they were fine, they could not be approved as CJT had not submitted financial statements for a number of years. We were essentially 'struck off' because of that.  

Moving past all the history ... it seems we need to get 3 basic things sorted : Election of a viable committee, financial records brought into a state where they can be verified and submitted for approval, and the rules to be approved once the other two items are in place. Anything else is irrelevant and a time robber.  I will be back in Inverness over Christmas so I will definitely renew my lapsed membership if I can, and as I have said before, I will happily assist in whatever way I can in terms of maybe helping with getting things like forms and other bits and pieces online on here or elsewhere. Obviously I am not in a position to take on an official role from Canada but happy to help with things that can be done remotely like that. 

 

On 12/12/2017 at 8:41 AM, Hearach said:

Financial records are up to date as at year end 30/6/17 and the accounts have been professionally audited by a firm of accountants. So one less problem to fix. 

Again I will cover the previous two quotes in  single response....latter first.  Financial Records ARE up to date as Hearach says.  This can be seen on the FCA register at https://mutuals.fsa.gov.uk/SocietyDetails.aspx?Number=2665&Suffix=RS

The ones for which the society was almost struck off were brought up to date in 2013 (again, that can corroborated on the above link)....so the claim by CJT would appear to be that it has taken over 4 years to get the rules sorted and submitted?  The error on the rules (and I know as I dealt with it at the time) were minimal.  Supporters Direct had failed to provide the final draft and one of the rules wasn't pertinent to our setup and there was some minor issue with numbering.  These were sorted and cleared by me with both the FSA/FCA and Supporters Direct for re-submitting.  It was then left in the hands of others on the board, who were also working on the returns, to get that done.  Even if you accept the refusal to register the rule change without completion of the returns (and I don't*) then it could/should have been done anytime after the end of April 2013.

*I disagreed with this at the time (I was on the board then), I saw no documentation to support this at the time and I resigned due to having no support from the wider board in getting it sorted at the time.  I hold pertinent qualifications and worked as a compliance auditor responsible for upholding FSA rules; so have an understanding of their workings.

 

I agree that what's most important now is moving things forward, but I feel that people need an understanding of how we have arrived where we are so we can learn from it and make the best decisions for tidying up and advancing the society.  I've consciously not included or attached individual names  to anything I have said because this is not personal and, as a board, they have joint and several liability...whilst the board is, and should be, democratic; if an individual board member believes that fundamental errors exist and they accept that and do nothing, then they are as culpable as the rest.

It is apparent that current (and recently resigned) board members refuse/d to communicate openly with the wider member base and fans (as a community benefit society their responsibility is not only to the members).  In fact, I had the first communication I've had in months from one of the board members by email during the last week and it stated that they would not be getting into any public discussions...either at meetings or online...which is unacceptable!

I am fully aware of the personal circumstances of a couple of the current CJT board and have every sympathy, but this isn't a matter that can't be allowed to drag on.  if the society was not in the state it was then there would be other board members to pick up and run with things, but there's not.  There remains a single board member who only joined the board at the recent AGM and who will have had no time to get up to speed on anything.

If there is no communication from the CJT board in the near future as to when the EGM will be and/or how matters are to be moved on, then I am willing to arrange a venue and time for an open fans meeting (if that's what people want) where options (as to how things are taken forward) can be discussed.

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5 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

It is just like Tulloch and Savage :cry:

Sadly I think you are right IHE.

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An open fans meeting is a good suggestion and I would be happy to attend/contribute (obviously as that’s the only reason to be posting).  A viable way forward would be good, with CaleyD’s suggestion likely to be that.  I hope others will show some enthusiasm for his initiative on this thread.

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With the announcement at the AGM that the current board intend to recommend to shareholders that the club is restructured into a Community Interest Company, then there's no time to lose in sorting out CJT.

With the intimation given about capping any individual/groups voting right to 10%, this would mean that the Supporters Trust's influence would be immediately diluted with the shares they hold in addition to the 10% voting right becoming worthless.  It is also an intimation which appears to stand in contrast to the accompanying line that this is a move intended to put the club back in the hands of the fans.

We absolutely need to be organised as a group so we can ensure there's suitable representation at the table when these discussions begin.

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22 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

With the announcement at the AGM that the current board intend to recommend to shareholders that the club is restructured into a Community Interest Company, then there's no time to lose in sorting out CJT.

With the intimation given about capping any individual/groups voting right to 10%, this would mean that the Supporters Trust's influence would be immediately diluted with the shares they hold in addition to the 10% voting right becoming worthless.  It is also an intimation which appears to stand in contrast to the accompanying line that this is a move intended to put the club back in the hands of the fans.

We absolutely need to be organised as a group so we can ensure there's suitable representation at the table when these discussions begin.

from memory was it  not guaranteed that the voting rights could never be less than 10%? 

 

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3 minutes ago, caleyboy said:

from memory was it  not guaranteed that the voting rights could never be less than 10%? 

Correct, it is written into the club's memorandum and articles.....but any restructuring would mean a new rule-set.  Even if those new rules maintained the 10% voting right, it would still render the additional shares held be the trust as worthless as they would/could not be added to increase that voting right.

I don't want to be getting ahead of things here as no detail was given at the AGM, just the loose idea....however, as CJT are the only existing fans group with a shareholding/voting right then (on the face of it) we'd either need to set up a new fans group any time we wanted to increase the fans say or, any cap would have to exclude CJT....otherwise you're not putting the club back to the fans, you're capping their influence at 10%....which is worse than the current position.

It's all these questions, and many more that will no doubt arise, which make it vital that CJT is suitably represented from the outset.

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4 hours ago, CaleyD said:

Correct, it is written into the club's memorandum and articles.....but any restructuring would mean a new rule-set.  Even if those new rules maintained the 10% voting right, it would still render the additional shares held be the trust as worthless as they would/could not be added to increase that voting right.

I don't want to be getting ahead of things here as no detail was given at the AGM, just the loose idea....however, as CJT are the only existing fans group with a shareholding/voting right then (on the face of it) we'd either need to set up a new fans group any time we wanted to increase the fans say or, any cap would have to exclude CJT....otherwise you're not putting the club back to the fans, you're capping their influence at 10%....which is worse than the current position.

It's all these questions, and many more that will no doubt arise, which make it vital that CJT is suitably represented from the outset.

thanks CD. sounds complicted to me 

 

 

 

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It definitely is complicated and I think Stenhousemuir and Clyde are in the vanguard in terms of CICs in Scotland.  As CaleyD states, the AGM has made the issue of holding the governance of ICT to account through official channels more important, and that can only be done effectively by CJT.  I don’t want to go off on a tangent but accountability only comes from the bottom up, and that in a word is from CJT.  How to move it forward from theory into practice is another matter.

Is Jan 2nd doable?  It would make sense as a) most (not all, sadly) people are off and b) it follows/precedes a game.   It certainly doesn’t have to be but it would be good to have a date to work to.

 

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By my reckoning, yesterday was the last day in which CJT should have issued an EGM notice in order to provide 14 clear days notice for a meeting to be held within 28 days of when they were instructed to call one by the members at the AGM....that meeting should have been set on or before 3rd January 2018.

It would be tough to organise an independent open meeting for 2nd January.  With it being a matchday then people aren't going to want to go to anywhere other than the stadium and that will be in use with match hospitality so unavailable.

The preference would still be fore CJT to call an EGM and/or a meeting, but I'll check out venue availability and look to get something pencilled in either that week or the following.

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