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Message for Supporters : 14/02/18

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I should like to add my thanks to the club the Chairman and the staff of club for the efforts and skill in keeping the club active and to some degree solvent In what is without doubt difficult times. The past is the past and there is no good to come from dwelling over actions taken last season , it is over with.  The future is what it is all about in sport, or more to the point the here and now.  I know we all apreciate the fact that without good professional people at the helm the club would never get bak to its former status. Thanks again to the Chairman for taking time out to speak to the supporters.

 

Edited by Laurence
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11 hours ago, ICTFC said:

ICTFC Chairman, Graham Rae, has issued the following message for supporters....

http://ictfc.com/news/club-news/2128-message-for-supporters-14-february-2018

That's an honest and genuine update, indicating a desire to protect the long term future whilst striving to return to the top level.

We are a small club and need to find a way to live within our means and maximise our achievements.

I am heartened by the statement.

Roll on Sunday, assuming the pitch is playable.

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Great to see some proper communication. Personally I would have preferred more of a damnation statement but that would be improper and unacceptable in this day and age. Also some of the statements lead to more questions - as have all been asked before. The most worrying wording to me is "we reported that substantial new investment (comprising some cash, higher sales and shares purchase) is required in 2018 to sustain our business." - Sorry folks but that suggests to me that we are in the proverbial s*** and that our future is far from secure. Worrying times ?

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Seems an honest enough appraisal of where we are, avoiding negative wording where negative wording might be more appropriate.

Like IHE, I also picked out the requirement for new investment as cause for concern, despite the almost positive spin!

It seems that running a small club in the upper divisions of Scottish football is unsustainable as a business. At the end of the day, someone has to foot the bill.

We need a sugar-daddy!

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Better Still, we need an effective and efficient youth system that produces a player we can sell on for a decent fee at least every couple of season.

The fact that we have only 'home reared' one player that we have been able to sell on for a substantial fee in almost a quarter of a century is a sad indictment of what we've done st youth level over the years 

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I wonder how much of these losses could be attributed to 'wasted' wages either paying for ex-managers in Yogi & Foran plus players who were either on high salaries yet contributed little such as McNaughton, Anier, McKay and those we have refused to play such as OFW. Easy to see where as a club we have pi55ed away money - and for those who will say that its not players faults for being injured or being off for - we sign guys with horrendous records for being out of the game or failing to contribute at a similar level on a consistent basis. That coupled with off-field mismanagement and an inability to increase or maintain revenue through marketing the product its honestly a surprise we aren't in a worse position - thank goodness for that cup win and the sale of Christie to bolster the funds a bit. 

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The past was marvellous but now history, the present is full of doubt whilst the future is now ALL about survival. A journey that unfortunately appears to be out of our hands. I hear that there is the inevitable sugar daddy saviour waiting in the wings but there are even elements of that really worry me. Every club makes mistakes but our glory years were also years of mismanagement. Some people were in it for more personal gratification and appear to have simply ignored the potential perils of success, oh  and let's face it we are not ready to jump back up to the top division. 

 

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5 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

The past was marvellous but now history, the present is full of doubt whilst the future is now ALL about survival. A journey that unfortunately appears to be out of our hands. I hear that there is the inevitable sugar daddy saviour waiting in the wings but there are even elements of that really worry me. Every club makes mistakes but our glory years were also years of mismanagement. Some people were in it for more personal gratification and appear to have simply ignored the potential perils of success, oh  and let's face it we are not ready to jump back up to the top division. 

 

If its the same sugar daddy that I am thinking about I would have my doubts as well.

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Sadly, this all just goes to show the level of mismanagement by previous boards. I know the current board is trying to turn things around and are probably the most business orientated board we have had. Let's all hope we can turn HMS Sneck around and sail into a bright future.:smile:

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On 15/02/2018 at 1:20 PM, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

The past was marvellous but now history, the present is full of doubt whilst the future is now ALL about survival. A journey that unfortunately appears to be out of our hands. I hear that there is the inevitable sugar daddy saviour waiting in the wings but there are even elements of that really worry me. Every club makes mistakes but our glory years were also years of mismanagement. Some people were in it for more personal gratification and appear to have simply ignored the potential perils of success, oh  and let's face it we are not ready to jump back up to the top division. 

 

I wouldn't change a thing other than the appointment of Foran, we are always going to be a yo yo club, as soon as someone shows any talent they are scooped up by a bigger club. Since freedom of movement came in no one can build a team over a number of years, players and Managers move on it's all short term. Clubs which used to be able to compete successfully in Europe, Dunfermline,Dundee Kilmarnock, Dundee Utd, Aberdeen thanks to tying up players for several years on long term contracts haven't even been near the Europa cup proper for ages many of these names with the exception of Aberdeen have been nowhere near the top end of their domestic league in decades.

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On 15/02/2018 at 1:19 PM, bdu98196 said:

I wonder how much of these losses could be attributed to 'wasted' wages either paying for ex-managers in Yogi & Foran plus players who were either on high salaries yet contributed little such as McNaughton, Anier, McKay and those we have refused to play such as OFW. Easy to see where as a club we have pi55ed away money - and for those who will say that its not players faults for being injured or being off for - we sign guys with horrendous records for being out of the game or failing to contribute at a similar level on a consistent basis. That coupled with off-field mismanagement and an inability to increase or maintain revenue through marketing the product its honestly a surprise we aren't in a worse position - thank goodness for that cup win and the sale of Christie to bolster the funds a bit. 

It's how we get players for nothing BDU, think Craig Dargo, he was so injury prone that he only played a handful of games before he came to us. Had he been playing regularly getting 15 goals a season he would have been nowhere near Inverness. Many of the players we get for nothing are on a last chance to play at a decent level either because of injury, languishing in the reserves at their club (Darren Dodds), playing lower league (Don Cowie). McNaughton was a decent player just injury prone like Dargo, he was also older which makes recovery more difficult. The sale of Christie sticks in my throat given he is not playing for the club that bought him, he could have been playing for us last season and I don't know why our club didn't insert a clause in the sale that if he was to be farmed out it would be to ICT

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22 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

It's how we get players for nothing BDU, think Craig Dargo, he was so injury prone that he only played a handful of games before he came to us. Had he been playing regularly getting 15 goals a season he would have been nowhere near Inverness. Many of the players we get for nothing are on a last chance to play at a decent level either because of injury, languishing in the reserves at their club (Darren Dodds), playing lower league (Don Cowie). McNaughton was a decent player just injury prone like Dargo, he was also older which makes recovery more difficult. The sale of Christie sticks in my throat given he is not playing for the club that bought him, he could have been playing for us last season and I don't know why our club didn't insert a clause in the sale that if he was to be farmed out it would be to ICT

I would imagine it would be because a suggestion like that would be laughed off by the club buying the player.

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20 minutes ago, RiG said:

I would imagine it would be because a suggestion like that would be laughed off by the club buying the player.

It would also be an illegal and unenforceable restraint of trade as far as the individual player is concerned.

Edited by Kingsmills

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Very worrying that financially the Club is still in such an insecure state.

New money is still required to come in from external sources to enable the Club to even remain solvent.

The current board admit that to be the stark reality of the current financial situation. Take of the gloss of the statement and it can be viewed as akin to waving the white ( financial ) flag.

Is this an admittance that they have done all they can, invested all they have / all they are willing to.

Frightening times indeed.

Those fresh sources of money seemingly have to see their new money go into ICTFC and then work within the current Muirfield Mills board + structure.

Unless that prospect changes I find it difficult to imagine it to be an attractive investment to anyone, especially bearing in mind that any investor will definitely not receive any return on their money. Reasonably deep pockets will be required to have the Club operating on the current business model.

 I would say the fresh money must come from sources with an affinity for the Club, perhaps even a previous history with the Club. 

Would any potential investors have the financial muscle to pay off the Muirfield Mills investment?? ( circa £200k ).

This pay off  before a penny goes into Club and a new board formed to move it forward.

As I say frightening times for the Club indeed.

 

 

 

 

Edited by A Sofa In San Tropez
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3 hours ago, A Sofa In San Tropez said:

Very worrying that financially the Club is still in such an insecure state.

New money is still required to come in from external sources to enable the Club to even remain solvent.

The current board admit that to be the stark reality of the current financial situation. Take of the gloss of the statement and it can be viewed as akin to waving the white ( financial ) flag.

Is this an admittance that they have done all they can, invested all they have / all they are willing to.

Frightening times indeed.

Those fresh sources of money seemingly have to see their new money go into ICTFC and then work within the current Muirfield Mills board + structure.

Unless that prospect changes I find it difficult to imagine it to be an attractive investment to anyone, especially bearing in mind that any investor will definitely not receive any return on their money. Reasonably deep pockets will be required to have the Club operating on the current business model.

 I would say the fresh money must come from sources with an affinity for the Club, perhaps even a previous history with the Club. 

Would any potential investors have the financial muscle to pay off the Muirfield Mills investment?? ( circa £200k ).

This pay off  before a penny goes into Club and a new board formed to move it forward.

As I say frightening times for the Club indeed.

This post raises a number of very interesting issues and questions.

What do "new money", "fresh money" and "investment" mean? Do these terms simply mean charitable donations from wealthy individuals to right the ship after a period when the club lived beyond its means - and to allow expenditure to continue at a level which exceeds earnings? What actually is an investor who "will definitely not receive any return on their money"? Is this a benefactor? Or a source of subsidy? Or are these two euphemisms for a "sugar daddy" simply synonymous?

Why does this practice appear acceptable in the case of ICT (who also received £6M, albeit with a few qualifications, from Tulloch) whilst dismissed as "Uncle Roy's Back Pocket" in the case of Ross County?

Have the current board - who have been in post for only a short time - REALLY done all they can?

Who are "sources with an affinity for the Club, perhaps even a previous history with the Club"? Is this a call for control of the club to pass to a regime involving the McGilvray family, or Alan Savage, or both? Or someone else?

What is the thinking behind advocating that the Muirfield Mills influence be dispensed with? They are not especially large shareholders in their own direct right, although they have rather more than the suggested "circa £200K". The last full Companies House statement of holdings indicates £376,000 worth of shares, and I would be very surprised if MM were not also involved in the additional 450,000 shares allocated just last week in return for money put up front since the end of last season to keep the club afloat. I am also led to believe that another significant slice of this came from a source with a previous history with the club (but no inverted commas).

Remember also that there are several other fairly large but quite fragmented holdings on the part of, for instance, Roddy Ross, David Cameron, the McGilvray Family, Orion Engineering, the ICT Trust (controlled by MM), David Sutherland (personally as opposed to Tullochs who donated their shares to the Trust) and - in the form of 10% of voting rights - the perpetually elusive Caley Jags Together (which is an ongoing concern).

Where is this "new board" going to materialise from - a board which would continue to operate in an environment where shareholding remains fragmented?

Finally - has there, of late, actually been a further, sudden deterioration in the club's financial affairs.... or is this simply a Twitter rumour to which the Board felt obliged to respond with its statement?

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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I do think we have to be careful into reading too much into the figures reported in the statement and from comments from the armchair accountants on social media.

Undoubtedly we are suffering financially by being in the Championship and our crowds have taken a worrying sharp decrease, possibly due to the lack of travelling support from most Championship clubs. However, as usual, the general public of Inverness seems to have deserted the club when it most needs them. Some will argue that is the fault of the club given the poor start to the season, some poor on field performances etc but if we want the club to survive and prosper again, then we have to turn out. I am probably of a generation of fans who will turn out regardless but we seem to be becoming the minority in terms of supporters.

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43 minutes ago, Charles Bannerman said:

This post raises a number of very interesting issues and questions.

I thought it started out as speculation, and ended up virtually as a call for the replacement of the current board.

So I wouldn't have given it as much time as you did :wink:

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I think most people realise that the club's finances are not good at the moment but I fail to see anything in the Chairman's statement that could reasonably be interpreted as though the situation has significantly deteriorated.  Instead, the Chairman has used phrases such as "making solid progress",  "beginning to pay dividends" and "are making good progress on achieving our targets."  Had the position deteriorated we might have had "continuing to develop solutions", "actively working with others" and "making concerted efforts to address these challenging issues" etc.

Having said that, I have little doubt that progress made is not as great as the Board would have liked.  After all, how often have we heard the club state that they were finalising the gift of the stands from Tullochs?  What is perhaps interesting is that the chairman puts the word "gift" in inverted commas.  

It would be nice to know a little bit more.  Perhaps the Chairman could communicate a bit more frequently and/or in a bit more detail.  But if we had an effective fans group which engaged with the club and reported back to the fans then that would be our route for information.  What the statement brings home to me most starkly is the utter failure of CJT to carry out it's role.  It is clear that the club needs the support of fans now more than ever and therefore action needs to be taken to reconstitute CJT as a genuinely representative organisation and for it to actively engage with fans and the club alike.

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3 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

This post raises a number of very interesting issues and questions.

What do "new money", "fresh money" and "investment" mean? Do these terms simply mean charitable donations from wealthy individuals to right the ship after a period when the club lived beyond its means - and to allow expenditure to continue at a level which exceeds earnings? What actually is an investor who "will definitely not receive any return on their money"? Is this a benefactor? Or a source of subsidy? Or are these two euphemisms for a "sugar daddy" simply synonymous?

Why does this practice appear acceptable in the case of ICT (who also received £6M, albeit with a few qualifications, from Tulloch) whilst dismissed as "Uncle Roy's Back Pocket" in the case of Ross County?

Have the current board - who have been in post for only a short time - REALLY done all they can?

Who are "sources with an affinity for the Club, perhaps even a previous history with the Club"? Is this a call for control of the club to pass to a regime involving the McGilvray family, or Alan Savage, or both? Or someone else?

What is the thinking behind advocating that the Muirfield Mills influence be dispensed with? They are not especially large shareholders in their own direct right, although they have rather more than the suggested "circa £200K". The last full Companies House statement of holdings indicates £376,000 worth of shares, and I would be very surprised if MM were not also involved in the additional 450,000 shares allocated just last week in return for money put up front since the end of last season to keep the club afloat. I am also led to believe that another significant slice of this came from a source with a previous history with the club (but no inverted commas).

Remember also that there are several other fairly large but quite fragmented holdings on the part of, for instance, Roddy Ross, David Cameron, the McGilvray Family, Orion Engineering, the ICT Trust (controlled by MM), David Sutherland (personally as opposed to Tullochs who donated their shares to the Trust) and - in the form of 10% of voting rights - the perpetually elusive Caley Jags Together (which is an ongoing concern).

Where is this "new board" going to materialise from - a board which would continue to operate in an environment where shareholding remains fragmented?

Finally - has there, of late, actually been a further, sudden deterioration in the club's financial affairs.... or is this simply a Twitter rumour to which the Board felt obliged to respond with its statement?

Every investment into a Scottish Football Club is a charitable donation, it's a money pit. The only people I am aware of who made big bucks from their investment were Fergus McCann, Craig Whyte and Charles Green and I would hesitate before calling the latter two investors.

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48 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

That’s not the scenario RIG was dismissing, those loans were nothing like your proposed clause stating that if the new club ever loans the player out it can only be to us.

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12 hours ago, wynthank15 said:

As Yngwie says that article does not backup your point. I'm fully aware that players are often signed by a club then immediately loaned back (examples being Ryan Christie and Lewis Morgan being signed by Celtic and sent back to ICT and Saint Mirren respectively) which is what that article discusses. however, what you're suggesting is that a player signs for a team and has a clause in their contract stating that they can only be loaned to their former team were they ever to be loaned which is ridiculous.

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On 15/02/2018 at 1:27 AM, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Great to see some proper communication. Personally I would have preferred more of a damnation statement but that would be improper and unacceptable in this day and age. Also some of the statements lead to more questions - as have all been asked before. The most worrying wording to me is "we reported that substantial new investment (comprising some cash, higher sales and shares purchase) is required in 2018 to sustain our business." - Sorry folks but that suggests to me that we are in the proverbial s*** and that our future is far from secure. Worrying times ?

spot on my friend thats the way i read it to

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