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Who wants Gary Warren to stay?


caleyboy

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10 hours ago, cif73 said:

P.S. even our more affluent near neighbours have seen the need / financial benefit of agreeing the release of their well paid captain? I'm not sure Uncle Roy has taken the same flack. 

Ross County offered Davies a restructured deal which he turned down. We did not do that with Warren and just stated we wanted him gone.

1 hour ago, Stirling Observer said:

Some people aren't getting it. Most accept that moving Gary on was a necessary evil. However what is disappointing in the nature and manner of the exit. He was a player who went above and beyond his duties. He was our club captain. He therefore deserved a bit more respect rather than forced out the club via the backdoor with a shoddy statement. 

Nail - hammer interface here with this post.

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10 hours ago, cif73 said:

Gaz was a great servant to the club, put his body on the line, led from the front and saw our best times. It was lovely to see him lift a cup as captain last season after missing the previous two finals. However there were signs at the end of the relegation season and last season that he was losing a yard or two of pace. 

OK the club made it known that he was available to go if he could find another suitable club but if he couldn't he was welcome to see out his contract. 

It is a huge challenge to balance the books and it seems we've arrived where both parties will be content ....

1. Gaz has gone back to his neck of the woods to a decent, standard ... closer to his family no doubt ... and teaming up with an old ICT pal (Fisher). 

2. The club has released a more expensive, ageing player where recent, younger, very promising replacements have recently been recruited.

What's the big problem? Do we really have to take a pop at the board at every potential opportunity ... or can we not choose to be a bit more positive and encouraging even?

P.S. even our more affluent near neighbours have seen the need / financial benefit of agreeing the release of their well paid captain? I'm not sure Uncle Roy has taken the same flack. 

 

Perhaps Roy McGregor hasn't taken the same flack because, like him or loathe him, unlike the current members of our own board, he has invested millions of pounds of his own money in his club, runs it very professionally and, perhaps most importantly, makes a point of communicating well and often with its fans.

Our board may not be either willing or able to match his investment in a financial sense but they could learn a lot from him in many other respects.

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The Board, to my mind , have so far been putting their house in order, they have made some improvements to a number of measures that have been neglected for a very long time. They have recruited personnel they  know they can trust to support their aims and ambitions, surely this must hold promise for the future?

Perhaps at this moment in time we are not receiving the amount of communication we expected but we are getting every bit as much if not more than we have done from the previous board that was in office.

Immortal H E mentions the political undercurrent that is having a diverse effect on the support, I fully agree with this and as he says working together not division is the way up. Perhaps doing so on this forum will be a start.

Rather than some of the devious and subversive digs and comments made by some on here which are divisive to the Supporters it would be good to get back the togetherness element

Certainly CJT should be working towards that too, certainly if there is criticism to be made their voice should be heard but through consultation with the Board rather than by public outcry

I

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11 minutes ago, bughtmaster said:

The Board, to my mind , have so far been putting their house in order, they have made some improvements to a number of measures that have been neglected for a very long time. They have recruited personnel they  know they can trust to support their aims and ambitions, surely this must hold promise for the future?

Perhaps at this moment in time we are not receiving the amount of communication we expected but we are getting every bit as much if not more than we have done from the previous board that was in office.

Immortal H E mentions the political undercurrent that is having a diverse effect on the support, I fully agree with this and as he says working together not division is the way up. Perhaps doing so on this forum will be a start.

Rather than some of the devious and subversive digs and comments made by some on here which are divisive to the Supporters it would be good to get back the togetherness element

Certainly CJT should be working towards that too, certainly if there is criticism to be made their voice should be heard but through consultation with the Board rather than by public outcry

I

Example please.  Quite the allegation.

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13 hours ago, Glover said:

I'm not sure why your default for fans is to prostrate themselves submissively,

I don't recall  suggesting or inferring this approach .:blink:  

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To reply to IHE's 'vulture' analogy conflating my views with CJTs as 'internal political struggle' and 'divisive' echoed by Cif, as also 'taking a pop' and 'flack' along with making erroneous inferences, and being observed as 'devious and subversive' by Bughtmaster.  

Firstly, if I am accused of 'taking a pop' or 'giving flak' it is based on evidence.  I have given support for my belief through quotes, web links, facts, statistics the whole way through.   Any rhetoric beyond that circles back to my belief that there is no reason for fans currently to be positive or encouraging.  Again, I gave evidence - through the comparison of ICT to Dundee Utd, Falkirk, Partick and Dunfermline and specifically to a combination of fan involvement on the board and Open Days - and I compared that with the record on ICT and found it to be far far less and yet couldn't reconcile that with the vision set out over a year ago.  

As for political struggle and CJT.  My views are my own.  I may be called to account for my stance by the board (whom I have no relationship with, outside of that single first board meeting a few weeks back, whatsoever) and if anyone wishes to contact the Chair or Vice Chair or whoever to say I am overly divisive, devious or subversive, you may do that, and I won't hold any grudge - I am accountable.  I have never met or communicated with any ICT board member past nor present so politics or ideology I don't get.   

Lastly, I have on my own volition acknowledged the club shop, the ticketing gates, the compliance, the need for financial prudence, and the board's achievement of it.  I have also recognised the value of differing opinions on this matter and think it is important, healthy, and progressive to have debate.  I did make too much of a leap attributing fans being submissive to Cif73 and so that was not accurate and I take that back, If I can.  

Devious and subversive.  I do wish to alter the board's mindset to fan involvement, yes.  I'd like to see the Dundee Utd model of fan representation on the board in place but I don't think it's so linear that cuts happen first, then fan engagement second.  Or that it takes over a year to begin, I just see it as an MO.  

I don't feel I've been dishonest or deceitful in my actions, but if you want to hold me to account, have at it.

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I think Glover (Ewan) and Old Caley Girl (Lynne) make the point fairly clear that whilst both are members of the ICT Supporters Society (CJT) Board, that does not preclude them from having thoughts/opinions of their own and expressing them as they see fit.  If and when any CJT Board Member is communicating information on behalf of the organisation they will make that clear...e.g. I clearly make this post in my capacity as Society Chairman...no other posts made by them should be viewed as representative of CJT.

The organisation has a Board Members Conduct Policy and nothing mentioned in this thread would put them anywhere close to being in breach of that, but if you want to complain (and put your name to it) then you can contact me via the DM system on this forum or email caleyjagstogether@gmail.com.  If you include your real name and membership number (if known) to allow us to properly record the complaint, that would be extremely helpful.

2 hours ago, bughtmaster said:

Certainly CJT should be working towards that too, certainly if there is criticism to be made their voice should be heard but through consultation with the Board rather than by public outcry.

Having only been in place for 10 days, and with a mountain of work to do in order to get the society itself back in order, I can assure you that we have not formed any collective view (critical or otherwise) on the club or any other aspect of the ICTFC Community at large.  I'm all for a bit of constructive criticism and I have said elsewhere that I actively encourage it...however, please try and give us a chance to at least draw our first breath before trying to stick the boot in...many thanks ?

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1 hour ago, old caley girl said:

To make it crystal clear any views I post on here are my personal opinion only. Devious and subversive are strong words!

Strong and, unless the poster can provide evidence to back up that allegation, wholly inappropriate.

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7 hours ago, Eagle4Caley said:

Pretty much agree with everything you say....as far as I can see everyone wins. 1. Gary now has a longer contract on possibly more money, 2. we have rebalanced the squad financially, and certainly from an age point of view. Imagine if Warren had got an injury next season, he would have been in a more vulnerable position in terms of his next contract. We've lost a good man no doubt, with plenty of experience, a great servant....it was ashame he was banned for two of our finals. 4. However certainly in our relegation season there were a few on here having a pop at him and it's probably true that he might not have been first choice next season.

5. It's difficult for the board to get it right, not least since social media, always outflanks you. There was obviously suggestions being made, as in 'if you fancy finding yourself a better contract elsewhere we wont stand in your way/demand a fee' but that has empowered Gary. In the end the board (any board) will never satisfy all the fans nor that it needs to....6. yes I get 'more transparency, openess' thing, but just what do we really expect with player contracts and transfers.

7. Someone else has suggested the board is a 'shambles'...really? At the end of the season people were speculating about whether we were in financial trouble or if we could avoid going part time. Yet what I see is a club that's got key players on extended/better contracts (and longer than a year!) and recruited five new players in good time (yes we lost Vigurs), leaving us with squad that has some potential and longevity and no sign of going part-time as well as organising itself off the park.

8. Sure people have had issues with the departures of Gary, and Ross Draper and David Raven previously, but ultimately the club makes 'business' decisions about what it can afford and fund.

1.  Pure speculation and nothing more than a line to salve the conscience and allows us to square away the loss in our own heads, IMO.  A natural human coping mechanism.

2.  Again, speculation.  Robbo talked about a need to reduce the budget, but in the very next breath stated that wages saved would pay for other players.  That's just shuffling around the budget, not removing anything from it.

3. Imagine if ANY player gets injured?  A couple of bad injuries can not only ruin a season on the park, it can result in the need to find a sizeable chunk of money off it as well.....treatments, possible loan replacements etc.  Gary is no more or less of a risk in that regard than anyone else....in fact, history shows that he makes a speedy recovery from injury.

4.  Robbo told us if he was still here he would be playing as he had no doubts about his ability...are you suggesting that was a lie?  If so, then what are we to believe on anything?

5. Only if you let it...as the person primarily responsible for the club's social media from the day it started using it until mid February this year I kinda have first hand knowledge of it.  Interestingly, the club have not responded to a single question or query on Social Media for over 4 months (that I can find)....so, ZERO engagement for a board who said it would be a priority.  It's challenging, it doesn't always play out as expected and I certainly don't believe the club always got it right prior to that....however, if you do NOTHING then there's only going to be one outcome!

6. I think what people are saying here is that they want better, relevant communication directly with fans.  Forcing a player out the door by using the press is NOT being transparent and the consensus among fans seems to have been that this is one of the things which SHOULD have been dealt with behind closed doors...unless using the press to apply pressure to the situation was part of the plan?

Bit of speculation of my own, but I've not seen Gary thank the club for their handling of the situation and praising them for letting him go and get a better deal!! (see point 1)

7.  If not for the previous "regime" (you know, the apparent bad guys in all this!) putting in further substantial investment in the last 12 months then going part-time could have been the least of our worries.  If the current board were on top of things, would they have needed to rely on that?  Promises of improved communication, honesty and transparency....would a board on top of things be failing to deliver on just about every promise made?  Shambles or not a shambles....what does the evidence at hand support?

8.  Or in the case of the current board, 'business' decisions which fail to ensure the club can adhere to what it can afford and fund....and then need others to step in and bail them out.

(Just to be clear....all of the above are the personal views of Don Johnstone the individual)

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It's strange that so many support and back the board without criticism and think the way it has behaved over the last 2 seasons in releasing or more forcing players out is acceptable. Cost cutting is accepted as required however the way we do this is unsavoury behind the scenes and farcical in public. Regardless of the end result sometimes acting professionally to get there will carry more favour - football is a 'business' built on loyalty of not consumers but fans and without those a club has nothing and no business.

All those citing the number of games Warren played last year, his age, concerns about declining form and high salary are people's opinion yet nobody questions the re-signing of Doran (again) over the last 3 years he's hardly played, been on and most likely still is on a good contract keeping him as one of our highest earners and has yet to get anywhere near previous form at a lower level of football- surely that's as big a risk for the club financially.

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Agree with that though I would say that Doran has taken a pretty sizeable wage cut by all accounts to sign on again. For whatever reason Warren was never offered a restructured deal.

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2 hours ago, RiG said:

Agree with that though I would say that Doran has taken a pretty sizeable wage cut by all accounts to sign on again. For whatever reason Warren was never offered a restructured deal.

All players had wages cut upon relegation (contractual)...said to have been 20%.

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4 hours ago, CaleyD said:

I think Glover (Ewan) and Old Caley Girl (Lynne) make the point fairly clear that whilst both are members of the ICT Supporters Society (CJT) Board, that does not preclude them from having thoughts/opinions of their own and expressing them as they see fit.  If and when any CJT Board Member is communicating information on behalf of the organisation they will make that clear...e.g. I clearly make this post in my capacity as Society Chairman...no other posts made by them should be viewed as representative of CJT.

The organisation has a Board Members Conduct Policy and nothing mentioned in this thread would put them anywhere close to being in breach of that, but if you want to complain (and put your name to it) then you can contact me via the DM system on this forum or email caleyjagstogether@gmail.com.  If you include your real name and membership number (if known) to allow us to properly record the complaint, that would be extremely helpful.

Having only been in place for 10 days, and with a mountain of work to do in order to get the society itself back in order, I can assure you that we have not formed any collective view (critical or otherwise) on the club or any other aspect of the ICTFC Community at large.  I'm all for a bit of constructive criticism and I have said elsewhere that I actively encourage it...however, please try and give us a chance to at least draw our first breath before trying to stick the boot in...many thanks ?

 

Ah, I seem to have set the cat among the pigeons here, I wonder why ? My post is in no way offensive, merely a summarising of what in my opinion I have read into what has recently been arising in this forum in general.

All it is, is a call for positive unity  (togetherness) from the posters on here, surely that is a much better way of helping the Club than decrying it ? 

My reference re. CJT is entirely a suggestion to the same effect, merely a suggestion, is that putting the boot in ??? I think not Caley D. Perhaps though you know best and don't want any interference to your thoughts on how to improve relations with the Club and Supporters. In which case I shall refrain from further comment in future regarding this. You have however made me think twice and possibly others about joining the organisation if it is not to be run in a democratic fashion.

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:14 AM, Glover said:

The club's statement could be addressed in minutiae but I'd rather focus on this line:  

His contract, which had one year to run, has been cancelled by mutual consent allowing him to find a new club. 

I find that to be disingenuous and reminiscent of the Draper transfer request.

Anyway, I will draw a line under my issue on this.  Mr Rae has achieved his first aim - to get the financial discipline.  ICT's  budget will be  5th - 7th in the league (after Ross County, Partick, Dundee Utd, Dunfermline) and will be around Falkirk or Morton level.  Just above QoS and certainly above Alloa and Ayr.   I would say up to date Mr Rae's legacy has been reducing the wage bill but through questionable means.  Lets see what else he has up his sleeve from here on forward.   

 

At least 3, if not 4 of these teams have larger average attendances than us. If ours were at the same level, then perhaps not all of the financial savings would be needed. The spend of some of these clubs, especially Dundee Utd is not sustainable long term if they do not get promotion. As I have said before, an extra 1000 fans at each home game would make a huge difference financially. Bottom line is club cannot spend money it doesn't have although many fans appear to want to do this.

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20 minutes ago, bughtmaster said:

 

Ah, I seem to have set the cat among the pigeons here, I wonder why ? My post is in no way offensive, merely a summarising of what in my opinion I have read into what has recently been arising in this forum in general.

All it is, is a call for positive unity  (togetherness) from the posters on here, surely that is a much better way of helping the Club than decrying it ? 

My reference re. CJT is entirely a suggestion to the same effect, merely a suggestion, is that putting the boot in ??? I think not Caley D. Perhaps though you know best and don't want any interference to your thoughts on how to improve relations with the Club and Supporters. In which case I shall refrain from further comment in future regarding this. You have however made me think twice and possibly others about joining the organisation if it is not to be run in a democratic fashion.

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here.

You tried to attach an accusation of "devious and subversive" digs to the CJT board via a users individual thoughts/opinions and then take that further by suggesting that CJT were somehow partaking in a public outcry.  Those accused moved to clarify that you were wrong to do so....and why.  How you make the leap from that to the post quoted above is quite beyond me.

As I said, the CJT Board have formed no collective view on anything other than how we bring the organisations own affairs into order.  Therefore, there's no thoughts on improvement to Club and Supporter relations to be interfered with at this time.

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11 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Sure the board have made some PR and communication gaffes BUT their undoubted initial task was to sort out the financial stability whilst trying not to affect the team balance and keep hope for the new season. I actually think that they may well have achieved that. I would have also thought that Robbo would have been off ski if he smelt a rat. I think that we are better prepared pre-season than we ever have been before. I think that we have a squad that can hold it's own in this league. I also think that if the players develop then we will be in the next set of play offs. The board are on a hiding to nothing with the vultures waiting to pounce on mere scraps of mistakes. Now Stage 1 is complete it is now the time to look at the other improvements which need to be made. I was hoping that CJT would be part of bringing that about but it feels like there continues to be an internal political power game continuing. The only way is up but that has to be together.

Well said Johndo, some posters really do need to take a reality check on this situation

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16 minutes ago, Huisdean said:

As I have said before, an extra 1000 fans at each home game would make a huge difference financially. Bottom line is club cannot spend money it doesn't have although many fans appear to want to do this.

Not only the effect of dropping a division but also the actions of the board as cited regarding communication or lack off, the less than savoury way of using the press to leak stories and try force players out and the constant talk of restructuring while adding new members at board and upper levels does little to show the club in a good light for existing or potential new fans. Until the club sort a itself out and starts to engage and show itself to be at fan level then we will just have the hard-core until they get fed up. Maybe a good start to the season will increase gate numbers but that can't be taken as granted when doing any budgeting the work has to be done before that during close and pre season build up.

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There should ne no doubt that the club must surely have discussed Gary's future with him  perhaps over the last few months on an an ongoing basis.

The hiring of Gary by the English club seems to have come very quickly out of the blue so no doubt he had maybe also been able to make some "authorised" contacts himself, etc. This way all parties should be satisfied.

It's clear that the Board needs to cut expenses  and Gary obviously feels that his career is not yet over and that he can be a very useful addition to a lower league club --- a viewpoint with which I can wholly agree. So we should all cheer that a wonderful club servant has  managed to find a workable and dignified solution to both the monetary and the emotional challenges that this inevitable parting  of the ways must involve.

What a servant of ICT he has been though and a big send-off party is perhaps merited at this time.?

Best wishes on all fronts to you, Gary, and a very happy retirement whenever you decide on that final resolution.

 

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5 hours ago, CaleyD said:

1.  Pure speculation and nothing more than a line to salve the conscience and allows us to square away the loss in our own heads, IMO.  A natural human coping mechanism.

2.  Again, speculation.  Robbo talked about a need to reduce the budget, but in the very next breath stated that wages saved would pay for other players.  That's just shuffling around the budget, not removing anything from it.

3. Imagine if ANY player gets injured?  A couple of bad injuries can not only ruin a season on the park, it can result in the need to find a sizeable chunk of money off it as well.....treatments, possible loan replacements etc.  Gary is no more or less of a risk in that regard than anyone else....in fact, history shows that he makes a speedy recovery from injury.

4.  Robbo told us if he was still here he would be playing as he had no doubts about his ability...are you suggesting that was a lie?  If so, then what are we to believe on anything?

5. Only if you let it...as the person primarily responsible for the club's social media from the day it started using it until mid February this year I kinda have first hand knowledge of it.  Interestingly, the club have not responded to a single question or query on Social Media for over 4 months (that I can find)....so, ZERO engagement for a board who said it would be a priority.  It's challenging, it doesn't always play out as expected and I certainly don't believe the club always got it right prior to that....however, if you do NOTHING then there's only going to be one outcome!

6. I think what people are saying here is that they want better, relevant communication directly with fans.  Forcing a player out the door by using the press is NOT being transparent and the consensus among fans seems to have been that this is one of the things which SHOULD have been dealt with behind closed doors...unless using the press to apply pressure to the situation was part of the plan?

Bit of speculation of my own, but I've not seen Gary thank the club for their handling of the situation and praising them for letting him go and get a better deal!! (see point 1)

7.  If not for the previous "regime" (you know, the apparent bad guys in all this!) putting in further substantial investment in the last 12 months then going part-time could have been the least of our worries.  If the current board were on top of things, would they have needed to rely on that?  Promises of improved communication, honesty and transparency....would a board on top of things be failing to deliver on just about every promise made?  Shambles or not a shambles....what does the evidence at hand support?

8.  Or in the case of the current board, 'business' decisions which fail to ensure the club can adhere to what it can afford and fund....and then need others to step in and bail them out.

(Just to be clear....all of the above are the personal views of Don Johnstone the individual)

Wow!

To be honest I suspect few people on this forum can have any doubt that you have a bit of a beef with the the current board! ....But I don't think it's that hard to see that Gary Warren might benefit at 34 by having a two year contract with someone else (unless it's on a peppercorn rate!) against the 1 year he had left with ICT. Your point about ANY player getting injured is irrevelant since I'm talking about GW, it's not hard to see that should GW had suffered a bad injury in his final year with us then when nearing 35 next year getting another contract could be tricky, so he now has the benefit of two years pay.

I'm sure had he stayed with ICT he would have featured during the season, however with Robbo securing a right back and with Mckay, Donaldson and Tremarco all on extended contracts beyond GW's it's possible to envisage those four being the regular back line (and with McCart available too).

TBH I'm neither pro-this-board, nor anti-the-old-board, either set have made mistakes and the current one will still do so, still at least ICT aren't going into the new season with one fit striker like Palace did last year (you can imagine the flak the CPFC board got for that!), any football board gets few thanks if ticket prices go up, or results are bad, or signings don't materialise, the manager isn't sacked etc etc. And I'm not naive, I understand situations are manipulated by either side when it suits them.

 

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I have no beef with the current board...why would I?

What I do have are growing concerns over the way the club is being run.

I don't get this argument that somehow the club did Gary a favour by forcing him out the door!  Are we to believe that he wasn't capable of making a decision on his future for himself and the club were partaking in a bit of tough love?

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As far as I am concerned I have both praised and criticised the Board. My perception is that it is mainly the CJT names that are making most of the negative criticism and encouraging some others to criticise with no clear rationale or understanding of business. And just look at who has overreacted !! This forum lives on speculation, rumour and personal opinions. Long may it last. I just wish that the vultures would ignore the scraps every now and then and announce that they are not feeding on raw grizzle and advise the flock of seagulls to retreat.

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