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The Silence is Deafening!!


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While I appreciate the doubling down on supporter agency, I am still not really seeing why:  

What is it the Chairman and Board need to speak, tweet or communicate about currently?

They need to adhere to the club's Codes of Practice, specifically the Customer Charter, which states:

 "We are committed to ensuring that our supporters are kept informed by:  Consulting our shareholders and supporters through on-going direct communication and opportunities to meet..."  'currently' does not come into it - it's a constitution or function.  It does not need any event, which takes me to your next point...

IMHO they only need to communicate when they have something they need to communicate about, ticket issues, player movements (not bowel), disciplinary issues and fan behaviour, club promotional offers and the like.

And I guess issues around club management, which currently seems to be appointments. It's probably asking too much to be informed about financial matters on a regular basis, in fact is there any benefit to that

Nobody has suggested the fans should see the books in any post that I'm aware of.  As for your conception of communication, I think you are advocating for a top-down, prescriptive, managerial and punitive approach.  If that is really the concept to which you and others subscribe to then I am flabbergasted.  Promoting a reality where fans are less informed, less included, less involved and less consulted [sic] is quite some position and I would like you to explain how that will be more beneficial to the club than the alternative.  I have, in previous posts, explained that the will of the Scottish government, UEFA, the SFA, the SPFL, and the reality at many clubs opposes your model, and so I am not seeing how your democratic deficit is beneficial.  I know it exists in societal institutions aplenty, but few have ever argued for it.

Personally in response to Glovers post, relationship with a club is important (by which I understand that to be the emotional links, and sense of family/unity) but communications from the Board have no impact at all on me deciding whether to travel 500 miles to watch the team (nor 5 miles to watch my other team). Mind you a sense of unity usually comes from the team doing well in which case most people agree that the Board and manager must be doing something right!

You v 12,000+ supporters in a survey funded by SFA and SPFL.  Again, you are attempting to neuter fan agency and I cannot fathom this line whatsoever.  It is clear what my agenda is, I would like to know what benefits your approach will bring?

So perhaps we need to clarify what it is we are really after, is it supporter representation on the board (which isn't necessarily about communication, more transparency), or more Club participation into local events, or more (some!) Q&A sessions, or more social media interaction, or closer match-day contact with board members? Are members of the board seen as real fans or opportunists? What should the board do that isn't seen as cynical manipulation?

These are excellent points and I agree it needs to be negotiated  There needs to be a supporter dialogue and a collaboration that leads to a fan-club model that increases attendances and that needs to be done sooner rather than later.  At the Supporters Trust AGM in December these are good points to raise.

A last word, support for the board and the questioning of fan motives is a valid line and not without merit; I'm sure the board do feel much maligned and the fans (enough of them) feel taken for granted.  How that can be resolved and how we can (sadly) get to a point where we mimic how our neighbours got relegated and then saw a 10% increase (at least) in season ticket sales is what must be worked towards.  As minority shareholders, and by citing the charter, it is surely true that supporters, as stakeholders, are not treated as you, IYHO, would have it;  to paint the ICT fan as a mere day visitor/customer enjoying a moan is not just wrong but damaging to the club's future, regardless of incumbents past, present and future. 

[all my personal views]

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4 hours ago, Glover said:

 

A last word, support for the board and the questioning of fan motives is a valid line and not without merit; I'm sure the board do feel much maligned and the fans (enough of them) feel taken for granted.  How that can be resolved and how we can (sadly) get to a point where we mimic how our neighbours got relegated and then saw a 10% increase (at least) in season ticket sales is what must be worked towards.  As minority shareholders, and by citing the charter, it is surely true that supporters, as stakeholders, are not treated as you, IYHO, would have it;  to paint the ICT fan as a mere day visitor/customer enjoying a moan is not just wrong but damaging to the club's future, regardless of incumbents past, present and future. 

[all my personal views]

My cousin and his son who were regular ST holders wrote to the Chairman and told him they would not be paying PL prices for Championship games. I suspect many others may have said the same which prompted the statement that prices would be held if we got up last season. Barn  door and horses spring to mind. Perhaps someone is aware of the difference in ST sales?

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Are there any board members that aren't fans ? Opportunists ?  For what reason ?  Surely the only reason to be a member of a board of a club such as ours would be for the love of the club . Having met a couple of them socially I m finding it difficult to see the opportunities that could arise other than working for a business for no recompense . I m pretty certain that if anyone can think of any way we can increase our season tickets or attendances in general no one is aloof or arrogant enough to not accept help.  Its not a them and us thing . We are all part of OUR club .

We need as much positivity in this club as we can get .

Here endeth my rant.

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On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:15 AM, caleyboy said:

a really good result against the Pars yesterday but the blazers will believe that it's their policies that achieved it. 

I would like to think you are being ironic but doubt it. A totally unnecessary comment based on no evidence at all.  The board are just as much supporters of the club as we are. I have no personal connection to the board and will criticise them if required but comments like this do annoy me. Rant over.

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I live a very long way away but it appears that this Board has, and is, saying virtually nothing regardless of whether or not it's about the pies or the training of the boys on the park.

Now THAT is not good and it's certainly not communication. As for me I could not care less whether my conversation is with a guy who is black, white, pink or khaki but whether or not he/she  is attempting to put his/her point of view, answer questions or express his/her emotions.' And for me the last issue is the most important because without conveying emotions you cannot inspire the great-unwashed and/or the  desperate proletariat to support you. Why? Because we all live  and die for emotional feelings and expressions and we all go to the matches to satisfy these cravings don't we?

If the Board are not doing that in any meaningful way then they will attract sharp criticism because their emotions, feelings and desires and future plans are being withheld from the paying customers. And that is definitely  NOT good also.

So, as I opined in another recent post, either contact them and tell them what you feel from YOUR emotional standpoint and ask them to respond regularly or stop criticizing them. I think THEN you will see a resurgence of support from the fans.

And if you can't seem to rouse the emotions of your buddies tell them you are personally going to seek a meeting with the top brass and EMOTE At least that's a really positive move on your part!!!  Because...."Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings comes forth words of wisdom".

Yep ! Or, to put it more succinctly. either  get off your ..rse and do something positive instead of moaning about it all.

 Meantime, back at the ranch...……….

 

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49 minutes ago, sheepslagger said:

Are there any board members that aren't fans ? Opportunists ?  For what reason ?  Surely the only reason to be a member of a board of a club such as ours would be for the love of the club . Having met a couple of them socially I m finding it difficult to see the opportunities that could arise other than working for a business for no recompense . I m pretty certain that if anyone can think of any way we can increase our season tickets or attendances in general no one is aloof or arrogant enough to not accept help.  Its not a them and us thing . We are all part of OUR club .

We need as much positivity in this club as we can get .

Here endeth my rant.

I really do see where you are coming from Sheepslagger but our club needs a board which can secure and improve our financial stability which enables us to compete in the top league. We have NEVER had a board able to achieve this. I don't doubt the members of our board are supporters but we really need more than that. I know many wouldn't agree but I really feel we are in need of a "Roy MacGregor" who is a massive supporter and is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

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7 hours ago, Glover said:

A last word, support for the board and the questioning of fan motives is a valid line and not without merit; I'm sure the board do feel much maligned and the fans (enough of them) feel taken for granted.  How that can be resolved and how we can (sadly) get to a point where we mimic how our neighbours got relegated and then saw a 10% increase (at least) in season ticket sales is what must be worked towards.  As minority shareholders, and by citing the charter, it is surely true that supporters, as stakeholders, are not treated as you, IYHO, would have it;  to paint the ICT fan as a mere day visitor/customer enjoying a moan is not just wrong but damaging to the club's future, regardless of incumbents past, present and future. 

[all my personal views]

I believe if memory serves we had a slight increase in Season Ticket sales after our first relegation.  

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30 minutes ago, caleyboy said:

I really do see where you are coming from Sheepslagger but our club needs a board which can secure and improve our financial stability which enables us to compete in the top league. We have NEVER had a board able to achieve this. I don't doubt the members of our board are supporters but we really need more than that. I know many wouldn't agree but I really feel we are in need of a "Roy MacGregor" who is a massive supporter and is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

Sadly ( as I never thought I would).I totally agree. We were fortunate that the stars all alligned with our success but things have changed. To get back to these days we need big crowds ( not going to happen) or significant investment  

As for this thread. A lot of stuff could be sorted for no money whatsoever. Make fans feel valued and listened to. For instance takings must be down in sports bar due to the ridiculous sustem of having to hike through the main stand? That could be easily sorted. 

Then there are the serveries which have been taken in house. Advertise the fact. Run deals. 

The programme has gone online so not accessible to all. Why not sell advertising and have a free sheet/programme paid for by adverts? Free to all admissions. Simples. 

As for the supporters trust I can assure posters above that we are working hard to getting back on track and working towards good governance for an AGM before the end of the year. 

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But, Caleyboy, doesn't that depend entirely on the  financial circumstances of the person(donor) identified .

If the club is relying on Board Members to regularly put in large sums of money each season  to keep the club from folding then how is that sustainable in the long run?

ONLY bottoms on seats and legs standing on the terracing can achieve financial stability within the club. Any other expectation is flirting with bankruptcy. So, to exclude well-intentioned fans from joining the board, even if they are usually far from being  rich monetarily speaking,  is a self-destructive policy.

It usually just happens though that persons who desperately want to join the Board are rich and if they put money into the club we have to thank them but lower our expectations that they , and they alone, are responsible for the rise  and fall of the club's fortunes.

IMHO, that is the main reason why we have to encourage Management to communicate well with fans. That way  issues can be spotted early on before they become  a crisis and appropriate action(s) can be initiated to contain these issues and to  formulate a definitive plan to set about rectifying the  dangers that could develop fairly quickly therefrom. I.e.  pull down the portcullis and strengthen the defences along the city walls....like.:ictscarf:Then it's all hands  to the deck since the Board has already warned us that they need our help in advance of the crisis .i.e. excellent communication that does not include isolation of the board from the fans-- as appears to be the suggested case at the moment.  Eh?

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On 9/1/2018 at 8:53 PM, buckett said:

County supporters I know feel that they are part of the whole Ross County thing. It's very much a community club, hence the large support.

I used to feel that about ICT, but now I feel the upper management is aloof and arrogant, and I wonder if others feel likewise, and if that would contribute to the lack of support.

Fcuk county they've no bigger or better a support than us tbh wer the highland big dogs ! Personally I couldn't care less if the board tweets anything long as the wins keep coming and tbf we do a lot for our younger fans my boys met the players numerous times last wkend met a few of them at the aquadome gym to there credit Doran and big Ricky Calder spoke to him for ages and got selfies with him obvs I was to busy bench pressing to bother yapping to the troops!

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1 hour ago, Alan Simpson said:

Fcuk county they've no bigger or better a support than us tbh wer the highland big dogs ! Personally I couldn't care less if the board tweets anything long as the wins keep coming and tbf we do a lot for our younger fans my boys met the players numerous times last wkend met a few of them at the aquadome gym to there credit Doran and big Ricky Calder spoke to him for ages and got selfies with him obvs I was to busy bench pressing to bother yapping to the troops!

Bench pressing? I would have thought Flower pressing would have been more your thing!!  ???

On +7 now, true Champion form that mate. 

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13 hours ago, Shorty said:

Surely responsibility for communication now falls to the new CEO in the first instance? Think I am right in saying we have heard nothing from Yvonne Crook since her husband's cousin appointment her?

I ve met Mrs Crook and she is probably the hardest working person in tat stadium , bar none.  If you have anything you want to put to her to improve this this club , just write to her at the club and I m positive she ll get back to you. Or write to the Chairman directly.

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17 hours ago, caleyboy said:

I really do see where you are coming from Sheepslagger but our club needs a board which can secure and improve our financial stability which enables us to compete in the top league. We have NEVER had a board able to achieve this. I don't doubt the members of our board are supporters but we really need more than that. I know many wouldn't agree but I really feel we are in need of a "Roy MacGregor" who is a massive supporter and is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.

There`s the delicate balancing act .  Firstly we need to find a Roy McGregor or persuade Warren Buffet that he had a Heeland granny cos without that we need more bums on seats . The Roy effect didnt keep them up though, did it ? Now.  I was at the game on Saturday , we have found the back of the net, and we are now 2nd in the league.  This team deserve more support cos I think with total backing Robbo can get us up this year.  The only way financial security can be self financing through the supporters and the sponsors. Period.  Maybe an ICT Foundation similar to Motherwell or Hearts.  These clubs seem now to be stable without the need for a Roy.  Anne Budge rescued hearts but got her dosh back and look where they are. 

It could be worse..................we could support Dundee United....!!

And I m happy to be told that Im talking bollocks as long as someone has a better idea that gets and keeps our club where it belongs ..SPL...

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35 minutes ago, sheepslagger said:

There`s the delicate balancing act .  Firstly we need to find a Roy McGregor or persuade Warren Buffet that he had a Heeland granny cos without that we need more bums on seats . The Roy effect didnt keep them up though, did it ? Now.  I was at the game on Saturday , we have found the back of the net, and we are now 2nd in the league.  This team deserve more support cos I think with total backing Robbo can get us up this year.  The only way financial security can be self financing through the supporters and the sponsors. Period.  Maybe an ICT Foundation similar to Motherwell or Hearts.  These clubs seem now to be stable without the need for a Roy.  Anne Budge rescued hearts but got her dosh back and look where they are. 

It could be worse..................we could support Dundee United....!!

And I m happy to be told that Im talking bollocks as long as someone has a better idea that gets and keeps our club where it belongs ..SPL...

I agree that enough bums on seats to provide sufficient money to 100% fund the football operation would be the ideal answer to the problem. However, we have never been in this position since inception. For whatever reason we have never attracted sufficient numbers and we have never found the answer to this problem.

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1 hour ago, sheepslagger said:

I ve met Mrs Crook and she is probably the hardest working person in tat stadium , bar none.  If you have anything you want to put to her to improve this this club , just write to her at the club and I m positive she ll get back to you. Or write to the Chairman directly.

It is the duty of senior management to consult supporters.  If, on top of that, supporters also write in and they get replies, all good and well.  However, senior management being solely reactive, not proactive, does not meet with our charter’s codes.

 

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I feel the board must have been just as disappointed as we have been over the start to the season. A team with no shape no idea how to play. I would hope after  last Saturday we have found our way and the board their voice . They have allowed  Robertson to find his way with what is a new team. They should be able to speak now with confidence and communicate with the fans with confidence and encouragement 

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On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:15 AM, Glover said:

1) What is it the Chairman and Board need to speak, tweet or communicate about currently?

 They need to adhere to the club's Codes of Practice, specifically the Customer Charter, which states: "We are committed to ensuring that our supporters are kept informed by: Consulting our shareholders and supporters through on-going direct communication and opportunities to meet..."  'currently' does not come into it - it's a constitution or function.  

2) IMHO they only need to communicate when they have something they need to communicate about, ticket issues, player movements (not bowel), disciplinary issues and fan behaviour, club promotional offers and the like. And I guess issues around club management, which currently seems to be appointments. It's probably asking too much to be informed about financial matters on a regular basis, in fact is there any benefit to that

.....As for your conception of communication, I think you are advocating for a top-down, prescriptive, managerial and punitive approach.  If that is really the concept to which you and others subscribe to then I am flabbergasted.  Promoting a reality where fans are less informed, less included, less involved and less consulted [sic] is quite some position and I would like you to explain how that will be more beneficial to the club than the alternative.  I have, in previous posts, explained that the will of the Scottish government, UEFA, the SFA, the SPFL, and the reality at many clubs opposes your model, and so I am not seeing how your democratic deficit is beneficial.

3) Personally in response to Glovers post, relationship with a club is important (by which I understand that to be the emotional links, and sense of family/unity) but communications from the Board have no impact at all on me deciding whether to travel 500 miles to watch the team (nor 5 miles to watch my other team). 

........  Again, you are attempting to neuter fan agency and I cannot fathom this line whatsoever.  It is clear what my agenda is, I would like to know what benefits your approach will bring?

So perhaps we need to clarify what it is we are really after, is it supporter representation on the board (which isn't necessarily about communication, more transparency), or more Club participation into local events, or more (some!) Q&A sessions, or more social media interaction, or closer match-day contact with board members? Are members of the board seen as real fans or opportunists? What should the board do that isn't seen as cynical manipulation?

These are excellent points and I agree it needs to be negotiated  There needs to be a supporter dialogue and a collaboration that leads to a fan-club model that increases attendances and that needs to be done sooner rather than later.  At the Supporters Trust AGM in December these are good points to raise.

 

1) It strikes me that what appears to be missing then is the "opportunities to meet..."  Whether it is a couple of Q&A sessions a season, or something more formal with a representative fans group(s). Has anyone written to the board reminding them of the obligation? this type of forum might then be the vehicle whereby supporters suggestions are taken on board.

2) I'm not sure I am arguing for a 'top-down etc etc approach' more that in terms of regular direct communication (and perhaps we need to define what that is) I just struggle to see what else needs communicating. Now as it happens when the present board at CPFC took over the club in 2010 from administration, the owners being long term supporters adopted the idea of a link to the most popular fans online forum, and all manner of things were raised, from stadium improvements to tickets to leaky guttering, which I felt worked well, however some fans started to abuse the 'privilege', and the concept lasted just the one season. Not sure what you mean by democratic deficit, as the general model seems to be that those who put the money in and take the risks get the say. (Buying a season ticket might seem like 'putting money in' but it has no risk attached).

3) I'm not seeking to neuter fan agency...I just stated that my relationship or lack of it with the board doesn't affect my decision whether to attend a match.

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21 hours ago, Caman said:

Bench pressing? I would have thought Flower pressing would have been more your thing!!  ???

On +7 now, true Champion form that mate. 

Partial to a bit of flower pressing to bud! Haha don't worry soon loose a few when I sing yogis praises or slag kellagher again still might as well enjoy the heady heights of plus 7 eh!

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47 minutes ago, Eagle4Caley said:

1) It strikes me that what appears to be missing then is the "opportunities to meet..."  Whether it is a couple of Q&A sessions a season, or something more formal with a representative fans group(s). Has anyone written to the board reminding them of the obligation? this type of forum might then be the vehicle whereby supporters suggestions are taken on board.

2) I'm not sure I am arguing for a 'top-down etc etc approach' more that in terms of regular direct communication (and perhaps we need to define what that is) I just struggle to see what else needs communicating. Now as it happens when the present board at CPFC took over the club in 2010 from administration, the owners being long term supporters adopted the idea of a link to the most popular fans online forum, and all manner of things were raised, from stadium improvements to tickets to leaky guttering, which I felt worked well, however some fans started to abuse the 'privilege', and the concept lasted just the one season. Not sure what you mean by democratic deficit, as the general model seems to be that those who put the money in and take the risks get the say. (Buying a season ticket might seem like 'putting money in' but it has no risk attached).

3) I'm not seeking to neuter fan agency...I just stated that my relationship or lack of it with the board doesn't affect my decision whether to attend a match.

1) Open Night for season ticket holders (up to 120) was held on Mon 21 August 2017.  Since then, we have had three new directors join and a new CEO, yet I am not aware of any opportunities to meet having been planned since.  Q&A (Open Night) is fine as a starting point for the season but I don't see that as being the box ticked.  On top of that, something more formal i.e. structured dialogue.  

2) 'I just struggle to see what else needs communicating' - but that is top-down (and so is Q&A).  These things are fine as part of a bigger framework.  As I've said previously, of the eight minority supporter owned clubs, we are the only one without some kind of formal supporter dialogue.  Supporters Direct Scotland and the government's 2014 Working Group on Supporter Involvement in Football Clubs (WGSIFC) promote this dialogue (not just informing, dialogue).  I'm glad you mention CPFC.  The English Football League (EFL), in England's equivalent of WGSIFC, recommended that its member clubs’ directors and/or senior executive management represent the club at least two meetings per year with supporters, which must include the supporters trust, as well as considering any individual who requested to attend.  So, were CPFC to be relegated, the silver lining would be thus!

'...those who put the money in and take the risks get the say' - I will not be taking a bite of that cherry, 'For fools rush in where angels fear to tread' - that is another area for a braver soul. 

You are right that endless to-ing and fro-ing on everyday things is problematic and another thread, by SP, mentioned Boardroom Banter and Scotty's response concurs with your example very neatly.  I can extend the challenges to fan representation:  the WGSIFC don't really back a fan representative on the board as it can be very disruptive.  Cathy Jamieson was on the shortlist submitted by The Killie Trust (Trust in Killie £100,000 fan rep fund) to the club and was the one eventually selected by Kilmarnock FC.  You would need someone effective for both fan and club and it's been documented how tough it is for both the fan rep and the board.    That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen, and in 2010 (in England & Scotland) Trusts were represented on 60 club boards and 15 clubs were owned by supporters.  To come back to it, the democratic deficit is correct because a) ICT fans are minority shareholders and b) our fans have no say, except to vote with their feet, and it's bad for the club and it's  bad for Scottish football - TV rights companies hate half-empty stadia and won't pay a lot for it.  I support structured dialogue and so does the government, UEFA, SFA and SPFL.  

3) Fair enough but you are the exception.  A significant number of fans in that survey cited it as a reason, third, after ticket prices and kick-off times.  

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Or even the scorpion and the frog.  The scorpion is drowning in a river and asks a frog to take it on its back to the river bank.  The frog agrees but tells the scorpion not to sting it, otherwise they will both drown... 

  • Chairman - 24 August 2017:  "Winning back your trust, improving your match experiences and building a side that can get us back into the Premiership are my key priorities as I begin my new role as Chairman of this proud club... a new era of engagement"

 

  • CEO - 25 May 2018 "Our 25th anniversary gives us a great goal to work towards re-engaging with our supporters and building a great future".

 

  • Chairman - 25th August 2018: "Please note that the ICTFC values across our club are based on being:  P.R.I.D.E"  [see Alloa programme, p7]

 

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

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On 9/4/2018 at 10:40 AM, sheepslagger said:

I ve met Mrs Crook and she is probably the hardest working person in tat stadium , bar none.  If you have anything you want to put to her to improve this this club , just write to her at the club and I m positive she ll get back to you. Or write to the Chairman directly.

Im sure everyone including Mrs Crook is working their socks off it would just be nice if they told us about their achievements sometimes. Mrs Crook has been fairly invisible to most supporters since she took up her post. A football club is totally different to most other businesses in that a lot of us invest a lot of time and energy in supporting our team. There are some like CM in Berks that just like to turn up watch and go home but there are a large proportion of fans (Id like to suggest) who do value engagement by those that run the club. Information, events etc do seem thin on the ground to me and it doesnt cost anything to improve communication and make interested fans seem valued. 

With regard to your last point I did email the chairman last season and did receive a reply and my concern was addressed. It might be good if the club advertised an email that fans could use to communicate with the club. My guess is that most wouldnt have a clue how best to contact Mr Rae or Mrs Crook et al at the moment. Just a suggestion. 

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58 minutes ago, old caley girl said:

Im sure everyone including Mrs Crook is working their socks off it would just be nice if they told us about their achievements sometimes. Mrs Crook has been fairly invisible to most supporters since she took up her post. A football club is totally different to most other businesses in that a lot of us invest a lot of time and energy in supporting our team. There are some like CM in Berks that just like to turn up watch and go home but there are a large proportion of fans (Id like to suggest) who do value engagement by those that run the club. Information, events etc do seem thin on the ground to me and it doesnt cost anything to improve communication and make interested fans seem valued. 

With regard to your last point I did email the chairman last season and did receive a reply and my concern was addressed. It might be good if the club advertised an email that fans could use to communicate with the club. My guess is that most wouldnt have a clue how best to contact Mr Rae or Mrs Crook et al at the moment. Just a suggestion. 

Thanks for singling me out OCG.  Perhaps if you lived 500 miles or more away from Inverness, your involvement on a day to day basis might not be as great as it is either. It doesn't make us 'bad ' supporters, and some of us, including me,  have made sizeable investments in ICT via share purchases in the past, as a way of helping  the club out.  So don't knock the 'long distance' supporters.  I suggest we need all we can get through the gates, even if, for me, only a few times a year.

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