Friday Night Football

[CaleyD]

I just posted this on Twitter but thought it might make for an interesting discussion on here.....

As much as I think moving the Ayr v ICTFC match to a Friday night is ludicrous...I only find it such in relation to the current "norm". I'd actually support a move to shift the entire Scottish Football Calendar to Friday Nights...but I would make kick-off later!

Some of the best (home) atmospheres we've had were at Friday night matches, and there is something a bit special about playing under floodlights, but that's not the main driver for the above view.  It ultimately boils down to the fact that football, for all but the largest of teams, is struggling to compete with other interests at weekends....so why keep banging our head against that wall?

There is an argument about a drop off in visiting support, but if the move put enough on the home gate to counter that, then all the better.  In terms of our fans travelling to away games...meh!  I enjoy an away day as much as the next person, but the idea of prioritising putting money in the pocket of competitors ahead of what may be in the best interests of the game as a whole (or even just ICTFC, from the point of view of ICTFC fans) would be a bizarre argument against the idea.

Discuss...!!!

[Stirling Observer]

I really like Friday night games but it needs to be a fixture where both sets of fans have less than an hour to travel. 

Likely to only have about 50 away fans for this instead of maybe 150/200 on a Saturday. I would be one who would have attended sat but can't make the Friday night. That's rubbish. Being able to watch in a pub is consolation but nothing beats the real deal.

[bdu98196]

No.

Might be favorable for some home fans, but kills any away travel. The idea that by moving to a Fri night will reduce the competition of other activities I think is unlikely as every option whether it be shopping, movies, theater or even kids activities/sports can be equally scheduled on a Fri night as a Sat.

What we need is regular Sat 3pm games, with the removal of TV options at any times on a Sat around those games as this provides too much of an alternative option/distraction for football fans affecting footfall. Televised football should be seen as a nice novelty not the norm.

[+snorbens_caleyman]

5 minutes ago, Stirling Observer said:

I really like Friday night games but it needs to be a fixture where both sets of fans have less than an hour to travel.

One of my first thoughts was the travel, too, but I was thinking of the team rather than the fans. Having to set out at about 10:30 on a winter's night for a journey home of 4 or more hours, every second week, would not be good for the teams from the Highlands.  The alternative would be the additional expense of an overnight stay.

You'd probably also have more postponed games as pitches froze after sundown.

Both of which make me think that combining Friday night games with a move to summer football - often suggested here - could well be worth considering.

[highlandexile]

Its a big no from me too.  Not all our supporters live in the town and im one of them, so moving from Saturday to Friday night would definately stop me going to the games, in fact a season ticket would be utterly useless as I very rarely get to midweek games as it is.  I just would not physically be able to attend and get back home. 

Also seeing what happened with the attendanced at the scotland games shows moving from a 3pm Saturday does not really work for the majority.

I also agree with the above comment that it would only really stand a slight chance of working if we also switched to summer football. 

[RiG]

Provided the teams involved are relatively close geographically and any public transport before / after the game can support offer routes back home for fans then fine. Otherwise it's a big fat no. Asking the likes of ourselves and Ross County to play at the other end of the country on a Friday night is ludicrous. However ICT v Ross County would be a cracker although I take the point above that not all supporters live local to their teams.

[+DoofersDad]

It's a no from me as well for two reasons.  Firstly it would undoubtedly reduce the number of away fans at games.  Whilst Don makes some fair points regarding travelling support, I think that away fans are important in improving the atmosphere at games and a good atmosphere makes for a better match day experience for all.  Secondly, the future of the game depends on the enthusiasm of youngsters.  Late kick off times when it is dark and cold is not going to encourage  parents to take young children to matches.  There is an urgent need to get more youngsters going regularly to matches.  Many of us got hooked on watching football when we were in primary school, so anything which makes it less likely that that age group will attend matches needs to have some pretty compelling arguments to justify it.

[CaleyD]

2 hours ago, Stirling Observer said:

I really like Friday night games but it needs to be a fixture where both sets of fans have less than an hour to travel. 

Likely to only have about 50 away fans for this instead of maybe 150/200 on a Saturday. I would be one who would have attended sat but can't make the Friday night. That's rubbish. Being able to watch in a pub is consolation but nothing beats the real deal.

But if we sacrifice 150/200 away fans for 250 more home fans...surely that's a better scenario for the club?

[CaleyD]

2 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

No.

Might be favorable for some home fans, but kills any away travel. The idea that by moving to a Fri night will reduce the competition of other activities I think is unlikely as every option whether it be shopping, movies, theater or even kids activities/sports can be equally scheduled on a Fri night as a Sat.

What we need is regular Sat 3pm games, with the removal of TV options at any times on a Sat around those games as this provides too much of an alternative option/distraction for football fans affecting footfall. Televised football should be seen as a nice novelty not the norm.

I'm not talking about shifting to a Friday night to accommodate TV.  However, we have to accept that televised football is the norm and has been for a long time now.  Remove TV and the associated money and we'd be part-time (at best) and playing in the lower leagues in front of 700 to 800 people down the park (as we couldn't run our stadium on that).

I don't buy into the theory that people are sitting at home watching a game instead of heading along to local matches.  If they are, then it doesn't matter when we play games as you can get football on the TV pretty much 24/7.  The fact that we've had pretty healthy crowds at TCS for Friday Night games in the past would suggest that's not the case.

Not saying Friday Night football is the only option...but I do know that banging our head against the same old wall, time after time, isn't the answer.  Like it or not, we need to find a way to work with TV now that we're so reliant upon it.

See previous comments about away travel.

[CaleyD]

2 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

One of my first thoughts was the travel, too, but I was thinking of the team rather than the fans. Having to set out at about 10:30 on a winter's night for a journey home of 4 or more hours, every second week, would not be good for the teams from the Highlands.  The alternative would be the additional expense of an overnight stay.

You'd probably also have more postponed games as pitches froze after sundown.

Both of which make me think that combining Friday night games with a move to summer football - often suggested here - could well be worth considering.

 

Is setting off at 10:30pm for a journey home really any worse than setting off at 8am for a journey there?  Swings and roundabouts.

Most games postponed as a result of frozen pitches are because, for a 3pm game, the decision is being made early in the morning before pitches have a chance to be prepped.  With a day of sun daylight on them and time for ground staff to do proper prep, then there's possibly an argument that it would be less likely we'd have call-offs...summer football would certainly reduce the chance even further.

[CaleyD]

2 hours ago, highlandexile said:

Its a big no from me too.  Not all our supporters live in the town and im one of them, so moving from Saturday to Friday night would definately stop me going to the games, in fact a season ticket would be utterly useless as I very rarely get to midweek games as it is.  I just would not physically be able to attend and get back home. 

Also seeing what happened with the attendanced at the scotland games shows moving from a 3pm Saturday does not really work for the majority.

I also agree with the above comment that it would only really stand a slight chance of working if we also switched to summer football. 

Travel for existing fans who live out of town and relying on public transport is something there's no easy too.  It would also take a brave person to make the call to sacrifice that support in the hope that the decision would generate a larger support from closer to home!!

FWiW...I don't actually think that season tickets do clubs any favours and would get rid of them (in the traditional sense) tomorrow if it was within my power to do so.  If not for the fact that clubs, even the bigger clubs, have become so reliant on that pot of cash at the end/start of the season, then the business case to get shot of them would be an easy one...but that's a whole different conversation...lol

[CaleyD]

51 minutes ago, RiG said:

Provided the teams involved are relatively close geographically and any public transport before / after the game can support offer routes back home for fans then fine. Otherwise it's a big fat no. Asking the likes of ourselves and Ross County to play at the other end of the country on a Friday night is ludicrous. However ICT v Ross County would be a cracker although I take the point above that not all supporters live local to their teams.

As I said in the OP....it's only ludicrous in relation to what happens at the moment.  If it we didn't have this fixation with wanting large numbers of away fans at games* then it suddenly isn't so ludicrous.  Ourselves and County are perhaps a little different because we both have good numbers of fans who have moved South for education/work etc who attend games....but a Friday night match down there is still going to be more convenient for them than a home match up here at any time!

*I have nothing against away days or people attending away days...I quite enjoy them myself...but whilst it's normal in Scotland, it's far from normal across the rest of the globe other than for the "big" games....and even the big games in Europe (from what I can gather) only give visiting teams very small (relatively) areas because there's not normally the demand for anything else.  That doesn't make our norm wrong...it just shows that there are other norms (arguably more successful ones) that could/would come about if things changed.

[MorayJaggie]

For me it would be good as I work most weekends and don't have a 9 to 5 job. Football needs to evolve and varying kick off times is one answer we now live in a 24 hour society not a typical work week. The argument that its cold and dark on a Friday night will discourage youngsters is no different from attending a gloomy freezing Saturday afternoon at TCS when it's dark by halftime any way.   

Edited October 19, 2018 by MorayJaggie

[CaleyD]

51 minutes ago, DoofersDad said:

It's a no from me as well for two reasons.  Firstly it would undoubtedly reduce the number of away fans at games.  Whilst Don makes some fair points regarding travelling support, I think that away fans are important in improving the atmosphere at games and a good atmosphere makes for a better match day experience for all.  Secondly, the future of the game depends on the enthusiasm of youngsters.  Late kick off times when it is dark and cold is not going to encourage  parents to take young children to matches.  There is an urgent need to get more youngsters going regularly to matches.  Many of us got hooked on watching football when we were in primary school, so anything which makes it less likely that that age group will attend matches needs to have some pretty compelling arguments to justify it.

Away fan numbers are on a massive decline already across the country, have been for years, and that's just as much on a Saturday afternoon as it is at any other time.  Just look at how few fans Ross County take to our place these days.  I'd need to check, but I actually think the best crowd they've brought in the last 5 years was a Friday night!  There are far more practical things that can be done to improve the atmosphere at games than encouraging large away crowds (which inevitably bring larger stewarding costs etc as well).  Even when we were charging away fans less than home fans last season it did little to improve the numbers.

The argument for encouraging youngsters is a fair shout...I think!!  I have a slight reservation on it because clubs have been trying for years to grow the game on the back of being "family friendly" and it doesn't seem to be working.  I wish I could find it, but I have a paper somewhere from a team in Germany (I think) which showed that getting players out into the community regularly did more than free/cheap kids tickets etc.  Not suggesting we abandon promoting the game and making it accessible to youngsters, but we do need to look at whether or not we are doing that in the right way....possibly a subject of its own for discussion elsewhere.

[+snorbens_caleyman]

37 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

Is setting off at 10:30pm for a journey home really any worse than setting off at 8am for a journey there?  Swings and roundabouts. 

From the safety point of view, yes.  It's dark, and the driver is more likely to make a mistake because of the time of day.  Also more likely for conditions to deteriorate - e.g. ice forming - than improve, which they would normally do during daytime.

Would you look forward to coming through Drumochter in the wee sma' hours of a freezing January night?

[CaleyD]

52 minutes ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

From the safety point of view, yes.  It's dark, and the driver is more likely to make a mistake because of the time of day.  Also more likely for conditions to deteriorate - e.g. ice forming - than improve, which they would normally do during daytime.

Would you look forward to coming through Drumochter in the wee sma' hours of a freezing January night?

No more or less than I'd look forward to it in the wee hours of a freezing January morning!

[Glover]

All the money in football comes from fans, and football should be played at whichever time is optimal for the majority who would attend.  That sounds very unicorn and rainbows I know, but how much will TV companies realistically pay for games in deserted stadia?  

[MorayJaggie]

Remember the club Haven't encouraged kids coming to games this season by impelementing £6 under 12 ticket costs when last season they were free

[CaleyD]

23 minutes ago, Glover said:

All the money in football comes from fans, and football should be played at whichever time is optimal for the majority who would attend.  That sounds very unicorn and rainbows I know, but how much will TV companies realistically pay for games in deserted stadia?  

I agree with the first part...100%.

On the second part....they'll pay as much as they do now so long as the TV viewing figures don't change.  If people really want to boycott TV coverage then the answer is to turn off your TV, not stop attending games.

A move to Friday Night Football might actually encourage TV companies to spend and cover more games because it wouldn't fall within the holdback rules, allowing it to be shown live worldwide.  It would also mean that we'd have fewer (if any) games shifted (often at short notice) for TV....as has happened with the Ayr game.

[CaleyD]

Let me try and turn this conversation through 180º by asking....

What would it take to make Friday Night Football work?

[Glover]

10 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

Let me try and turn this conversation through 180º by asking....

What would it take to make Friday Night Football work?

You would need to find two football clubs, like for like (or near as).  Keep one playing on Saturdays at 3pm and move one to Fridays at 745pm and monitor the figures.  If the latter showed a sizeable positive effect then there would be a case.  

[CaleyD]

18 minutes ago, Glover said:

You would need to find two football clubs, like for like (or near as).  Keep one playing on Saturdays at 3pm and move one to Fridays at 745pm and monitor the figures.  If the latter showed a sizeable positive effect then there would be a case.  

That would only prove (or disprove) the concept...it doesn't provide any information on what could/would go into making it work.

[Glover]

It was rudimentary but yes, the control i.e. Clubs A, B, C, D (as usual) could be compared to Club E (Friday - as usual) ; Club F (Friday - shuttle & 25% off) ; Club G (Friday - nightclub in sports bar after game) ; Club H (Friday - dinner & drink before) etc etc.  Whichever one of E, F, G, H showed a positive effect (assuming they did) could then be investigated more.  

Similarly, one (or all) of EFGH could show a negative effect in which case...

Edited October 19, 2018 by Glover

[CaleyD]

17 minutes ago, Glover said:

It was rudimentary but yes, the control i.e. Clubs A, B, C, D (as usual) could be compared to Club E (Friday - as usual) ; Club F (Friday - shuttle & 25% off) ; Club G (Friday - nightclub in sports bar after game) ; Club H (Friday - dinner & drink before) etc etc.  Whichever one of E, F, G, H showed a positive effect (assuming they did) could then be investigated more.  

Similarly, one (or all) of EFGH could show a negative effect in which case...

That kind of research is never going to happen (unfortunately)...for so many reasons...so if we are going to look at change, then it needs workable methodology/analysis and a bit of trial and error.  Not ideal, but the alternative is we keep doing what we are doing (even though we know it's not working) because we can't prove anything else would be better.

[Glover]

53 minutes ago, CaleyD said:

That kind of research is never going to happen (unfortunately)...for so many reasons...so if we are going to look at change, then it needs workable methodology/analysis and a bit of trial and error.  Not ideal, but the alternative is we keep doing what we are doing (even though we know it's not working) because we can't prove anything else would be better.

Agreed, and on a club-by-club basis it would be difficult to get generalisation anyway.  I would say Friday night football would not work at ICT (and other clubs) but with added value it might:  

1) 7pm kick off, shuttle buses from Falcon square 5.30/630.  530pm people can get an hour of food & beer 630pm people just in for game.  At 845pm sports bar becomes like Foxes.  Shuttles back to Falcon/Inverness main areas 9pm, 10pm, 11pm.  The club gets revenue from bar/hospitality, shuttle bus can be £3.

2) tents on pitch after 11pm, £10 per tent and use of showers/toilets plus continental breakfast in morning (to tent, choice of jams)