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Kingsmills

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Why this uncharacteristic weakness/lenience on someone who has undermined a government policy on a matter that actually makes a difference between life and death. No idea how the FM can continue to trust someone who stood beside her saying one thing and doing the opposite. Totally untenable.

Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but I’d like to know how long the FM has known where the CMO was spending her weekends, and whether there was explicit or implicit consent to do so - I simply can’t think of any other reason for not sacking her.

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27 minutes ago, Yngwie said:

Why this uncharacteristic weakness/lenience on someone who has undermined a government policy on a matter that actually makes a difference between life and death. No idea how the FM can continue to trust someone who stood beside her saying one thing and doing the opposite. Totally untenable.

Maybe I’m getting cynical in my old age, but I’d like to know how long the FM has known where the CMO was spending her weekends, and whether there was explicit or implicit consent to do so - I simply can’t think of any other reason for not sacking her.

The FM explained her reason for not sacking her and, although I disagree with her decision to retain her services albeit now in the background, I believe the FM's reasons. She was put in a very difficult position by someone who has let her, Dr Calderwood's own NHS colleagues and the whole country down.

The only thing I would give her a little credit for is the fact that, unlike Charles, she has at least admitted that she was wrong and has made an excruciating and sustained public apology, she could have been pulled from public appearances before today's briefing so so some limited credit from me for fronting up to that.

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I find this quite extraordinary.  Calderwood, as CMO was the lead person on advising the Government on measures which were designed to "save lives and protect the NHS".  She made a conscious decision to do precisely what she was telling the nation not to do and she did this not just once but twice!  In so doing, and on the basis of her own message, her actions risked lives.  It was a betrayal of every single NHS worker.  It also seriously undermined the vitally important message she was charged with championing and utterly destroyed her own credibility. It seems staggering to me that once her actions came to light that she didn't resign immediately.  Her actions were so irresponsible that it would not surprise me if the General Medical Council called her to account.  They might consider her actions as gross professional misconduct.

I also find the First Minister's response quite inexplicable.  Usually she is a pretty shrewd woman with good judgement, but I'm afraid she has seriously misjudged this.  We are in the biggest peacetime crisis of our lives and if ever there was a case where immediate dismissal is called for, this is it.  I don't for a minute question the point that Calderwood's advice has been extremely helpful to the First Minister in recent weeks, but surely the First Minister should realise that Calderwood's advice ceases to be helpful when her credibility has been fatally undermined by her own refusal to follow her own advice!  Secondly, saying she still needs to have Calderwood's advice implies the First Minister doesn't have any other senior doctor in Scotland who is capable of giving the necessary advice.  To imply Calderwood was irreplaceable must have been a real kick in the teeth to the rest of the team and to Public Health consultants across Scotland.

 

 

 

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On 4/3/2020 at 8:45 PM, Yngwie said:

Yes, when Prince Charles was at Balmoral with Covid 19, Prince Andrew was in London with Jennifer, 17.

That's not exactly the one I read, when it first started to circulate  😉

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15 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

The FM explained her reason for not sacking her and, although I disagree with her decision to retain her services albeit now in the background, I believe the FM's reasons. She was put in a very difficult position by someone who has let her, Dr Calderwood's own NHS colleagues and the whole country down.

The only thing I would give her a little credit for is the fact that, unlike Charles, she has at least admitted that she was wrong and has made an excruciating and sustained public apology, she could have been pulled from public appearances before today's briefing so so some limited credit from me for fronting up to that.

Of course she had to admit she was wrong, at least one of the times!

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13 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

The Chief Medical Officer has resigned. Entirely the correct thing although I continue to believe that it would have been better if she had done so this morning.

The cynic in me wonders about the delay and why she wasn't removed from post....time to throw together a goodbye handshake perhaps??

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3 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

I find this quite extraordinary.  Calderwood, as CMO was the lead person on advising the Government on measures which were designed to "save lives and protect the NHS".  She made a conscious decision to do precisely what she was telling the nation not to do and she did this not just once but twice!  In so doing, and on the basis of her own message, her actions risked lives.  It was a betrayal of every single NHS worker.  It also seriously undermined the vitally important message she was charged with championing and utterly destroyed her own credibility. It seems staggering to me that once her actions came to light that she didn't resign immediately.  Her actions were so irresponsible that it would not surprise me if the General Medical Council called her to account.  They might consider her actions as gross professional misconduct.

I also find the First Minister's response quite inexplicable.  Usually she is a pretty shrewd woman with good judgement, but I'm afraid she has seriously misjudged this.  We are in the biggest peacetime crisis of our lives and if ever there was a case where immediate dismissal is called for, this is it.  I don't for a minute question the point that Calderwood's advice has been extremely helpful to the First Minister in recent weeks, but surely the First Minister should realise that Calderwood's advice ceases to be helpful when her credibility has been fatally undermined by her own refusal to follow her own advice!  Secondly, saying she still needs to have Calderwood's advice implies the First Minister doesn't have any other senior doctor in Scotland who is capable of giving the necessary advice.  To imply Calderwood was irreplaceable must have been a real kick in the teeth to the rest of the team and to Public Health consultants across Scotland.

 

 

 

I agree that it was an error of judgement on the part of the First Minister but, in all fairness, it was probably the first time that she has put a foot wrong during the current crisis and, that apart, she has led in this emergency incredibly well.

I would not wish to have her responsibility just now. I would hope that, even if in general you do not support the ruling administration, you are prepared to cut those struggling with these matters at the moment a little slack and serious errors will be made. I am certainly taking that view that the United Kingdom government of whom, to say the least, I am no fan. In that spirit, although I detest almost everything he and his cohorts stand for, I wish the Prime Minister well in his personal battle against the virus.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Time goes on and every day our army of nurses, porters, cleaners, paramedics, carers(paid and unpaid), shop workers, bin men(and women) transport workers and a myriad others go to battle on our behalf and I will be out on my middle class, well heeled, doorstep this evening at eight o'clock applauding them all as usual.

However, they deserve more than our appreciation, however sincere and heartfelt that may be, and certainly more than a stupid badge Mr Handcock.

These wonderful people have been undervalued and underpaid for far far too long. If we learn  one thing from this crisis it's that we need to recalibrate our society to be much fairer in the long term.

I speak as a higher rate tax payer for most of my working life. People like me who are not wealthy but are comfortably off can afford to pay an extra 5% at least in income tax. Those with six figure salaries can surely pay an extra 10% on the element above £100,000.

Are stockbrokers, hedge fund managers, company CEOs, top level athletes, lawyers, accountants, the idle rich living off investment income, large landowners, social 'influencers, successful musicians and actors, hospital consultants, politicians, bankers, company directors really so much more valuable to society than those protecting us now, feeding us, delivering our groceries and keeping your elderly mum as safe and comfortable as they possibly can ?

There is enough money in the economy to go round if it is distributed more fairly. Higher income tax for those of us that can afford it, a modest increase in corporation tax for medium and large companies, tech companies operating in the ether being properly taxed, a 5% increase on VAT on luxury goods and a doubling of council tax on all second homes would be a very good start. The redirection of the billions of pounds spent every year on a nuclear deterrent that deters nobody and will never be used will also go a long way.

Those of us 'affected' might have a little less cash but can still keep a secure roof over our head, food on our table and properly cloth our children.

The redistributed wealth might just mean that the army of people I mentioned earlier might just be able to do the same.

Edited by Kingsmills
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Good post Kingsmills I fully agree with your sentiments but I fear that even after this things will not change as the wealthy only care about themselves and the amount of money the have and can make, it's just pure greed! 

I have just read an excellent book 'Insurrection' by James Hunter which is about the potato famine in Scotland during the winter of 1846-47 when many families starved at a time when Great Britain was a well of country.  With the exception of a few rich land owners the vast majority did nothing to help those living on their land while wining and dining with their fellow Lords.  Over 160 years later there is still a lot of poverty and there will be even more after this and it's not likely to change. 

A bit like our football the greedy big clubs don't want to share any more money with the smaller clubs!

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18 minutes ago, IBM said:

Good post Kingsmills I fully agree with your sentiments but I fear that even after this things will not change as the wealthy only care about themselves and the amount of money the have and can make, it's just pure greed! 

I have just read an excellent book 'Insurrection' by James Hunter which is about the potato famine in Scotland during the winter of 1846-47 when many families starved at a time when Great Britain was a well of country.  With the exception of a few rich land owners the vast majority did nothing to help those living on their land while wining and dining with their fellow Lords.  Over 160 years later there is still a lot of poverty and there will be even more after this and it's not likely to change. 

A bit like our football the greedy big clubs don't want to share any more money with the smaller clubs!

Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

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On 4/16/2020 at 12:02 PM, Kingsmills said:

Time goes on and every day our army of nurses, porters, cleaners, paramedics, carers(paid and unpaid), shop workers, bin men(and women) transport workers and a myriad others go to battle on our behalf and I will be out on my middle class, well heeled, doorstep this evening at eight o'clock applauding them all as usual.

However, they deserve more than our appreciation, however sincere and heartfelt that may be, and certainly more than a stupid badge Mr Handcock.

These wonderful people have been undervalued and underpaid for far far too long. If we learn  one thing from this crisis it's that we need to recalibrate our society to be much fairer in the long term.

I speak as a higher rate tax payer for most of my working life. People like me who are not wealthy but are comfortably off can afford to pay an extra 5% at least in income tax. Those with six figure salaries can surely pay an extra 10% on the element above £100,000.

Are stockbrokers, hedge fund managers, company CEOs, top level athletes, lawyers, accountants, the idle rich living off investment income, large landowners, social 'influencers, successful musicians and actors, hospital consultants, politicians, bankers, company directors really so much more valuable to society than those protecting us now, feeding us, delivering our groceries and keeping your elderly mum as safe and comfortable as they possibly can ?

There is enough money in the economy to go round if it is distributed more fairly. Higher income tax for those of us that can afford it, a modest increase in corporation tax for medium and large companies, tech companies operating in the ether being properly taxed, a 5% increase on VAT on luxury goods and a doubling of council tax on all second homes would be a very good start. The redirection of the billions of pounds spent every year on a nuclear deterrent that deters nobody and will never be used will also go a long way.

Those of us 'affected' might have a little less cash but can still keep a secure roof over our head, food on our table and properly cloth our children.

The redistributed wealth might just mean that the army of people I mentioned earlier might just be able to do the same.

The reward for those frontline people mentioned above is only part of the solution, the other important part is the way investment needs to be used in the best way possible , with some proactive rather than reactive action planning - which is where we find ourselves in this current crisis. Despite the sterling effort by our health professionals we are on trajectory for huge numbers of fatalities, partly due to our various governments approach to covid 19, and might even end up with the worst figures in Europe. 

It's difficult to compare us with Germany in many respects, but the way they have systematically stuck to high levels of testing, along with tracing and quarantine shows what can be done.

Also worth noting, closer to home is the particularly high numbers for Scotland,  which although a lot of it is related to the central belt ,it can possibly be an indicator of the poor levels of general health in the region which hasn't been addressed by successive governments...

So our army of staff, on the frontline of the fight could do even more and be less at risk themselves if those in charge were more capable at leading from the top.

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How are the numbers particularly high for Scotland?    The headline death statistics in the UK are only for deaths among confirmed cases, usually hospital deaths  and by that yardstick, Scotland has fewer deaths per 100,000  to date than the UK as a whole does, doesn't it?   

Edited by Oddquine
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Quite possibly, but it hit us later. I know of a death today in Inverness which is a sobering thought. 

I have heard of links between high death levels and pollution levels, smoking and drinking. The former is not an issue up here but the others could be. 

Trouble is, no one really knows and we have to trust the politicians to make the right calls. 

Take care and stay safe. 

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Death rates in Scotland are lower than the UK as a whole.  Unsurprisingly, London has been worst hit because of the level of mixing on the underground etc and because it is such a hub for people from all over the world.  Rates are variable in the rest of the UK just as as they are in different parts of Scotland, but in general, the rates are lower where population density is lower.  There are loads of reasons why some locations may have more cases than others.  An intriguing football related one is that there is a suggestion that some coronavirus deaths in Liverpool may be a consequence of 3000 Athletico Madrid fans coming to the Champions league match when parts of Madrid were already in lockdown.  

 Bottom line is, anyone can catch it.  We all now know how to stay safe and how to prevent putting others at risk, so let's keep doing that and keeping the figures as low as possible in our neck of the woods.

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12 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

Death rates in Scotland are lower than the UK as a whole.  Unsurprisingly, London has been worst hit because of the level of mixing on the underground etc and because it is such a hub for people from all over the world.  Rates are variable in the rest of the UK just as as they are in different parts of Scotland, but in general, the rates are lower where population density is lower.  There are loads of reasons why some locations may have more cases than others.  An intriguing football related one is that there is a suggestion that some coronavirus deaths in Liverpool may be a consequence of 3000 Athletico Madrid fans coming to the Champions league match when parts of Madrid were already in lockdown.  

 Bottom line is, anyone can catch it.  We all now know how to stay safe and how to prevent putting others at risk, so let's keep doing that and keeping the figures as low as possible in our neck of the woods.

Well said DD. Most of us can't make the same contribution as those magnificent caring, medical, nursing professionals and others.

However, none of us are helpless. We can all do our modest bit for our communities and the country as a whole by following the rules.

This new way of life is not easy and many of us are missing many things and many people but it wont last forever. We can rebuild our finances, we can resume our social lives we can create a Phoenix football club if necessary but what we can never to is bring people back to life.

Inevitably, there will be many many fatalities before this emergency is over but any additional deaths as a result of people not doing what is asked of them would be beyond tragedy.

If you are not a key worker, stay home, stay safe and, most importantly, keep those who might be less fortunate and more vulnerable than you as safe as possible.

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On 4/17/2020 at 11:58 PM, Satan said:

The reward for those frontline people mentioned above is only part of the solution, the other important part is the way investment needs to be used in the best way possible , with some proactive rather than reactive action planning - which is where we find ourselves in this current crisis. Despite the sterling effort by our health professionals we are on trajectory for huge numbers of fatalities, partly due to our various governments approach to covid 19, and might even end up with the worst figures in Europe. 

It's difficult to compare us with Germany in many respects, but the way they have systematically stuck to high levels of testing, along with tracing and quarantine shows what can be done.

Also worth noting, closer to home is the particularly high numbers for Scotland,  which although a lot of it is related to the central belt ,it can possibly be an indicator of the poor levels of general health in the region which hasn't been addressed by successive governments...

So our army of staff, on the frontline of the fight could do even more and be less at risk themselves if those in charge were more capable at leading from the top.

Tempting as it is, I am not sure that it's particularly easy or useful to directly compare rates of death in different countries.

As well as different age demographics, density of population and ethnic diversity or otherwise country's have different systems of reporting and recording deaths and the cause thereof.

For instance, to contrast England with Scotland, until a matter of days ago, the law in England was that doctors were not legally able to declare a cause of death on a death certificate unless they had personally examined the patient within the previous 28 days. With the spread of Covid19, increasing numbers were dying, particularly in care homes, without their GP visiting so that  even if Covid19 was suspected, it could not be entered on the death certificate. Further, even when the doctor had visited within the last four weeks, the advice from coroners was that, unless the GP was sure that Covid was a cause or contributory factor it should be left off the death certificate. There is no such beast in Scotland as a coroner or broad equivalent so Scottish doctors have, since the outset, being using soley their professional judgement when certifying the cause of death. Accordingly, until very recently indeed there has probably, although by no means certainly, been greater under reporting of Covid related deaths outside of hospital in England compared to Scotland. In both cases it is probably fair to say that the administrations were too slow, when doing a great deal to safeguard the elderly and vulnerable in their own homes, to put adequate measures in place to fully safeguard the even more vulnerable in residential homes where infection control is an issue at the best of times.

There will be time in the future to learn lessons and, if appropriate censure those who have been slow and negligent but, for now, the main  focus has to be on proper and adequate equipment, testing capacity and facilities as close as possible to the people, especially in remote and sparsely populated areas like the Highlands and generally limiting the damage and planning a way forward.

International cooperation, rather than finger pointing, will help greatly.

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36 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

Tempting as it is, I am not sure that it's particularly easy or useful to directly compare rates of death in different countries.

Personally - in my unqualified opinion - it depends on how it is handled in each country. The more stringent the controls, and the earlier they are imposed the quicker it seems to dissipate and with a lower curve and potentially the quicker things can get back to whatever becomes the new normal - at least that's my hope. I cite New Zealand as a good example and the USA as an example of what happens when those at the very top make sure its not taken seriously. 

My personal experience ....

We travelled before the pandemic was declared when cases in North America and Africa were very low. We went from Toronto to New York then to Seychelles via Nairobi Kenya. We agonised over going/cancelling/turning back right up to the point where we got on the plane for the longest leg of our journey from New York to Nairobi. We decided to continue because we were part of a group of 5 and had all our 'equipment' with us (masks, gloves, disinfectant wipes etc) allowing us to sanitise surfaces as best as we could, and because, at the time, Kenya and Seychelles had a total of 1 and 0 cases respectively.

I'll skip the holiday part other than to say it was great, although we did have a few COVID related changes to our itinerary on the way back, but what shocked me was the level of screening on the journey from the so-called developed nations. I kind of understand the lack of screening on the outward journey as all 5 airports we used (Toronto YYZ, New York LGA and JFK, Nairobi NBO and Seychelles SEZ) had little or no cases. However, arriving in Nairobi, with only 1 case in the entire country at that point, and within 50 feet of the airplane ramp we were screened using thermal imaging cameras and also a thermometer 'gun' pointed at us while you were standing on the spot required for the thermal imaging. The same applied on arrival in Seychelles where health officials boarded the plane to check you first then you got off and went through the same thermal imaging process before being allowed to enter the country. On the return journey (when things had gone somewhat exponential in both North America and Europe) we had the same temperature and thermal imaging checks leaving Seychelles and entering Kenya but nothing at all in New York at JFK, LGA or on arrival back in Toronto. NOTHING . We were handed a leaflet in Toronto saying we should consider isolating ourselves for 14 days (which we were going to do anyway) but that was it ..... Its got more stringent now with border closures, mandatory quarantine for returning travellers and lockdowns but to me it was like closing the door after the horse has bolted. 

I have kept an eye on all these places since our return .... 

Seychelles has had a total of 11 cases, none fatal. 6 have now recovered and tested negative multiple times and 5 remain in hospital/quarantine but none in ICU. All but one were incoming travellers who were identified and isolated at the airport and sent to the quarantine hospital they established on a specific (normally uninhabited) island.  The other case was a baggage handler at the international airport which prompted them to close down the airport that day until the end of April. They had already banned all cruise ships and yachts from entering territorial waters or berthing in the Seychelles. A couple of weeks ago they said everything but supermarkets had to close and last week they stopped all supermarkets from opening after 6 and now all cars have to be off the road by 7 until 6am next day. With the exception of the baggage handler who presumably acquired it from someones luggage there has been no community spread. On our last day on the islands, our trip back to Nairobi was delayed by 14 hours (original flight cancelled and we were put on the next one which was consolidating the two flights) ... the airline put us up overnight in a resort hotel. We were screened on our way into the hotel as well by the same contactless thermometer gun. 

Kenya had 1 case when we arrived and now has 303 total as of 2 hours ago. A total of 14 fatalities only one of which was a foreign national and 83 recoveries out of the 303. When we were in Seychelles, Kenya banned all foreign nationals from entering the country. You could transit through the airport (as we did) but you could not come in. They were vigourously screening at the airport as I mentioned above and have pretty stringent quarantine and lockdown measures in place including curfews and quarantine centres for those who may have been exposed. They have just said they will not relax these measures for the holy month of Ramadan which is a pretty big statement to make. 

USA had less than 400 cases in the entire country when we left (less than 100 in New York) but on the day we came back they announced 10400 for the country and 5700 new cases in New York alone ! New York City (not State) now has around 140,000 cases and 10,600 deaths. The USA has 827,000 cases and more than 45,500 deaths. This is a country that is still complaining about lockdown, protesting (in groups) to lift the social distancing rules, had no screening at the airports until recently, and has an executive branch that quotes Fox News for its miracle drug that has not been tested or proven effective in any way.   

Canada now has 38,422 cases with 1834 deaths and 13,188 recoveries. In Ontario there are 12,145 cases, 659 deaths and 6221 recovered. In Toronto the city website says we have 3820 cases, 190 deaths and 223 recovered. Extensive lockdown procedures are in place and have been since we returned but some measures were slow to start in my opinion. We are now seeing a flattening of the curve since more stringent measures were put in place but we were behind the pace in my opinion. Our city government, Tory provincial government and Liberal federal government have been pretty much in sync through this all and despite being slow to start the collaboration at all levels (especially compared to our neighbours to the South) seems to be helping a lot. 

 

Stay Safe, Stay Socially Distanced, and Stay Alive folks

 

... and a specially big thank you to all our members here who work in essential services .... that is aimed not only at nurses, doctors or other first responders who are putting their lives on the line every day but also to those unsung essential workers who are still working in supermarkets, as posties, as carers, delivering the stuff ordered online, or any other number of roles that could put them in more danger. True heroes all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Government is adamant that it will always make decisions based on the scientific advice and it is always going on about the fact that we have some of best and most internationally respected scientists in the world.  Some of the Government's decisions would suggest it must be other and rather less able scientists who are advising the Government.  Take Scotty's point about checking the temperature of travellers.  The stated reason for not doing what the Seychelles and Kenya were doing is that people can transmit virus before they are symptomatic and therefore temperature testing is not going to pick those people up, nor will it pick up those who have been infected but are early on in the incubation stage and who only become infectious later. That is true enough, but it is absolutely no reason not to identify those who are symptomatic and who, as a result of the stage of their illness and their coughing, are likely to be shedding a far larger amount of virus than the asymptomatic carrier.  There is an argument that the time people would spend in queues caused by the checkpoints would actually increase the opportunity of those with the virus to spread it, but that, of course, depends on how efficient the process is.  For instance a quick scan at an airport before you enter the security area at departures or before you enter the arrivals building on arriving should not involve any more queueing than takes place in any case.

One can't help but think that all too often, the "scientific advice" is shaped more by the Government's inability to implement the right action than by the scientific evidence or even basic common sense.  My guess would be that the Government simply did not have access to anything like enough thermal imaging equipment to do the necessary screening in our complex transport infrastructure.  

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Similarly with face masks. There appears to be some belief there is a correlation between mask wearing and lower rates. We are struggling to stick the NHS so any rules requiring their use in public areas would be futile if they are not available. 

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21 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

The stated reason for not doing what the Seychelles and Kenya were doing is that people can transmit virus before they are symptomatic and therefore temperature testing is not going to pick those people up, nor will it pick up those who have been infected but are early on in the incubation stage and who only become infectious later.

All true, but what Hancock, the UK* Government Health Minister, actually said earlier this week, when asked why 15,000 people were arriving in the UK every day with no testing, was that it would make little difference now since the virus is already widespread here.

I can summarise that as "We're f***ed already".

* Hancock is in fact only responsible for England, because health is a power devolved to Scotland, Wales and NI.  A point which is never made clear when he speaks, nor in much of the reporting that I see, usually on the BBC and in the Guardian.  I guess that you folks north of the border will be seeing much more of Sturgeon and the Scottish health officials.

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5 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

All true, but what Hancock, the UK* Government Health Minister, actually said earlier this week, when asked why 15,000 people were arriving in the UK every day with no testing, was that it would make little difference now since the virus is already widespread here.

I can summarise that as "We're f***ed already".

* Hancock is in fact only responsible for England, because health is a power devolved to Scotland, Wales and NI.  A point which is never made clear when he speaks, nor in much of the reporting that I see, usually on the BBC and in the Guardian.  I guess that you folks north of the border will be seeing much more of Sturgeon and the Scottish health officials.

Yes we are and the advice and information is very much more honestly and professionally given. The sincerity with which the FM gives her polished and professional daily delivery is there for all to see in stark contrast to the often stumbling, insincere and in the case of Priti Patel, shockingly dismissive performances of the UK ministers at their equivalent briefings.

The 25 page document put out yesterday for consultion by the Scottish government on the framework for an exit strategy amplifies and exemplified that contrast sharply.

Thank goodness these matters are devolved.

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