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[hislopsoffsideagain]

When you look at other full time clubs outwith the Premiership they are all running losses. Some (Queen's Park, Falkirk) are even worse than ours.

 

The truth is that being full time in the Championship or League One is viable only if you have significant backing from owners/directors. The costs are just too high. Whilst there are clearly ways the club could be run better I don't think it is realistic to have a competent team on the pitch and run a profit. Ayr, Cove, Dundee, Queen's Park and Dunfermline have that significant backing. Morton and Partick Thistle are fan-owned and it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. Hamilton, Raith Rovers and Falkirk, like us, appear to be basket cases.

 

As stated above one of the big problems with going part-time is that our player pool would be drastically reduced because of geography; we would be far more likely to end up like Elgin City than like Arbroath. So taking that step is likely to just lead to further irreversible decline.

 

So we are between a rock and a hard place. Either the directors continue to subsidise our losses and we muddle on hoping we hit the jackpot and get promoted, or we find a sugar daddy (anyone want to seek out Alan Savage and kiss his feet?) or we are screwed.

[STFU]

8 minutes ago, RiG said:

These eye watering losses kicked in as soon as we were relegated (Nareystoepoker has a good tweet summarising the most recent losses). Parachute payments, and later COVID grants, softened the blow but it's clear that these losses were mounting up long before Gardiner arrived. That said, a lot of criticism is definitely justified and I don't disagree with your comments about the alienation of the fanbase and the farce that was the stadium gigs. I also agree that local businesses being burnt will haunt us for many a year to come and I believe that's why Grassa has been brought back to try and repair some of the damage. We've had a lot of hot air and very little substance over the last couple of years at least.

As for your final query about what schemes have not failed I never said that there were successes. I said "largely fallen completely flat" mainly because I cannot think of one that has been a roaring success. The only ones that could maybe be passed off as a win would be small scale bob a jobs around the ground where local businesses maybe spruced up parts of the stadium in return for a free plug on the club website and social media but that is obviously no help to us whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. 

Losses and Debt are not the same...which is why I highlighted that aspect.

We had a couple of years of big losses under Muirfield Mills (the ultimate cause of our recent troubles), but they pretty much underwrote those, so the losses didn't contribute to the debt and didn't leave us much worse off financially.

[old caley girl]

53 minutes ago, RiG said:

These eye watering losses kicked in as soon as we were relegated (Nareystoepoker has a good tweet summarising the most recent losses). Parachute payments, and later COVID grants, softened the blow but it's clear that these losses were mounting up long before Gardiner arrived. That said, a lot of criticism is definitely justified and I don't disagree with your comments about the alienation of the fanbase and the farce that was the stadium gigs. I also agree that local businesses being burnt will haunt us for many a year to come and I believe that's why Grassa has been brought back to try and repair some of the damage. We've had a lot of hot air and very little substance over the last couple of years at least.

As for your final query about what schemes have not failed I cannot think of one that has been a roaring success. The only ones that could maybe be passed off as a win would be small scale bob a jobs around the ground where local businesses maybe spruced up parts of the stadium in return for a free plug on the club website and social media but that is obviously no help to us whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. 

As an addition to all you've said which is spot on, have we ever as a club been so top heavy re executive wages? We can't see wages breakdown but we seen to have lots of chiefs and too few workers bees? 

Also who are the 92 employees mentioned? 

[+DoofersDad]

1 hour ago, hislopsoffsideagain said:

When you look at other full time clubs outwith the Premiership they are all running losses. Some (Queen's Park, Falkirk) are even worse than ours

 

That's true, but there is no doubt that our situation is getting progressively worse and there is no sign of the club doing anything other than produce some vague assurances over projects which may or may not bring some money into the club.  In the meantime, the club ignores the fact that we also have some distinct advantages over other clubs both in and out of the championship.  The population of Inverness is bigger than or on a par with many of the sides both in the Championship and the Premiership.  Many of those clubs also have the disadvantage of either other big clubs being located in the same town/city (Queens Park) or being close to other towns with well established clubs (Hamilton).  Inverness is a growing city with a population of roughly 70,000 and a pretty wide catchment area beyond that.  Regardless of the vagaries of who locally chooses to put significant money into what club, we have the potential to pull in bigger crowds and attract individuals to support the club in other ways.  

The club likes to brand itself as a family club, but it seems to be the sort of family where family members never speak to each other.  Without the kind of substantial long term financial support our neighbours across the bridge have enjoyed, it is particularly important that the club reaches out to the supporters and the wider local community.  It should be said that the Club's Community Trust does a wonderful job, but far from trying to integrate itself as a pivotal part of the City's fabric, the football club seems, if anything, to be alienating itself from the community which is its life blood.  Nobody is saying it is easy to attract bigger crowds, but that shouldn't stop us trying.  It also means the Club should do all it can to stop even more of its long term fans from drifting away.

 

[RiG]

Statement klaxon!

 

[+DoofersDad]

3 hours ago, RiG said:

We haven't started losing money since Gardiner arrived. It's been an issue before his time as well. 

Also true.  As one senior person at the Club rather grudgingly put it on Gardiner's appointment, "at least this one knows how many players there are in a football team!"

[Satan]

Interesting AGM incoming.

[RiG]

Probably a question that takes the thread OT but I've always wondered how we didn't attract the same kind of backing during our more successful years and have tended to be a bit of a basket case off the field.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

I've already put this up on Twitter, but it feels like someone turned up at the stadium and told the board "I've sold battery farms to Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook and by gum it put them on the map!"

[+DoofersDad]

That's a very welcome, albeit overdue, statement.  Good to know that there is now an AGM scheduled at last.  The devil is in the detail as always, and at the moment there seems to be a reliance on optimism that various initiatives will bring in much needed cash, rather than any form of assurance that they will. Interesting to note the comments about the disappointments of this season being dealt with internally.  Also disappointing that whilst the Chairman makes several references to the wonderful and loyal fans, there is nothing in the statement to indicate any desire to engage with them.

[ictchris]

I think success on the field covered up a multitude of issues.  This goes back more than 20 years.

In 2002 Tullochs proposed a share issue which meant the club recieved an investment of £500,000.  We had a good team at that point anyway and the further investment meant we could build a team that eventually got promoted.  We also had two consecutive runs to the Scottish cup semi-final and the package we got from our manager leaving to go to Aberdeen.  We then had five seasons in the top flight where revenues are much higher, our crowds were higher, we got TV money, we had big away supports.  We also managed to sell a few players and managers and stay on an even keel. 

We then got relegated in 2009 and the board took a gamble at the time.  They trusted Butcher with coming back up and took a big loss on that season - I thinkwe lost well over £500k that year but it worked and we were promoted again.  The Butcher model then established us in the top flight and built a new team that was our most successful ever - top six finishes, cup finals, cup wins etc.  That was dismantled remarkably quickly by appointing a manager who wasn't up to it and then firing him too late.  We've essentially now been set adrift, making massive losses, not being able to build a team good enough to challange for promotion (last season was the closest we've got to going back up).

That statement kind of sums it all up - we are relying on increasing off the field revenues, mention made of vague plans - doesn't fill me with hope.  All clubs are looking to do this stuff and is there any evidence that our board are going to be able to produce revenue streams that wipe out the regular six figure losses we make?  Nope.  Freeports are a political thing as well - it's likely we will have a change of government in the next couple of years, what if the new administration shelve them?  Where does that leave us?

[Ronaldo]

Slightly off topic, but in my opinion the stadium will always be our ball and chain.

[big cherly]

Friday 10th March is now a watershed date for the fans/club. The cup match with Killie will set in place a series of events that will be pivotal to ICT immediate future :

 

Win - Money spinner and media attention heading into the semis. Much needed injection of funds to reduce account loss projections. Fans interest and enthusiasm reignited. Change of fortune and results for the team resulting in achieving the playoffs. BD hangs on till end of season.

Loose - More austere operating  challenges for the club. Economy cuts   across the playing and stadium staff. Billy Dodds and coaches depart as fans boycott any further involvement from him! Part-time team during realignment phase. Youth teams cut back. Fan base -season tickets reduced. JR takes up full time radio punditry at Dingwall.

I expect their will be a change in the directors irrespective, so I’m parking that for now.

It’s been a hell of a season so far and I find it hard to put drum up much evidence to see a victory for ICT on the day. That said we all know there is a small chance of a surprise on the day! 
 

I just wonder however does the current lot (on and off the park) deserve the fall from grace and another chance.?? 

[Charles Bannerman]

Yes, I know it’s been a very long time since I’ve posted on here…life has taken a few different directions, but I did remember my password!

What’s prompted me to post now is this extremely articulate and very well informed thread on a topic I’ve followed with great interest since even before the club existed as a supporter, a journalist and for the last 26 years, a shareholder as well - its finances.

Moving on from that rather lengthy reintroduction, I must say that I’m rather astonished that today’s lengthy club statement of around 800 words makes no admission whatsoever of the specifics of what’s looking like an ever deepening financial crisis, as revealed yesterday by external parties. Headline items here include losses increasing 3.5 fold to £835K… deeper in hock to HMRC and trade creditors… 64% fall in net assets, large increase in staff to 92 and the auditors slapping a “going concern” notice on the accounts.

These details were only revealed through Companies House yesterday, the company’s deadline for filing there, and picked up by the media… all before shareholders and supporters have been told by the club. And this information vacuum, given the absence of any financial detail in that statement, remains the case unless a calling notice is on its way for an AGM which, according to the company’s articles of association, became overdue on 21st December last year.(EDIT - AGM now called for 28.3.22.)

There has been such a delay with these accounts that the information they contain is now nine months out of date, which is a long time when financial fortunes are in freefall. Has the situation got even worse? In 2021 we were told that concerts were going to be the financial Messiah… and then the concert company collapsed. What are the implications of that, because even though the Concertco was a legally separate company from the FC, although both its directors were also FC directors, there must be reputational and other issues to consider and other apsects to scrutinise. And what are the specifics of these “land” arrangements and “battery farm”?

Someone in an earlier post (and it’s great to see so many of the “usual suspects” of years gone by still contributing magnificently on this forum!) suggested that ICT hasn’t had a boost from benefactors like Ross County. I’m not sure if I totally agree with that and would start with Ian Fraser’s £330K in 1996 and continue through a multi-faceted £3-ish million from Tullochs, several hundred thousand from Muirfield Mills, part of a million in new capital that appeared during 2018-19 etc etc. Then there’s goodness know a how much in loans and donations just to keep the club solvent and it’s all gone simply to sustain a long term underlying loss situation.

This club has therefore had substantial external assistance but still finds itself in the financial plight described in these nine month old accounts…. or possibly worse. However any insight provided to fans, shareholders etc has been very limited. Meanwhile one major current issue is why (EDIT now called for 28.3.23.) is why the deadline was so lengthily missed  for an AGM where shareholders can require the board to shed some light on what appears to be an increasingly alarming situation?

Edited March 1, 2023 by Charles Bannerman

[+DoofersDad]

Welcome back, Charles!  Re the AGM, the Chairman’s statement states it will take place on 28th March. 

[+Fraz]

Have faith guys!

Once the battery farm is done, the concert monies taken, the freeport established, hospitality opened, the West Stand roofed, the community facilities completed, the monorail built and the injured players back we will be a force to be reckoned with in Scottish Football once again! ️ #InGardinerWeTrust 

[Charles Bannerman]

1 hour ago, DoofersDad said:

Welcome back, Charles!  Re the AGM, the Chairman’s statement states it will take place on 28th March. 

Cheers DD. Post edited accordingly. I must have missed that in the statement …. not difficult in 800 words where a revelation of what is one of the key, urgent club issues of the day - the date of its very overdue AGM - appears about 400 words in and in a context which is incidental to an arrangement with a land management concern. I therefore look forward as a shareholder to receiving notification of this meeting and attendant documentation by Tuesday 7th March.

I’ve got to say that I find this statement a slightly baffling way of communicating. As I see it, there are two items of information needing urgently and clearly communicated - the club’s financial details and a date for a very overdue AGM - but one is omitted completely while the other is obscured in the bowels of an extremely wordy statement.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Charles Bannerman

[Pele_Is_God]

Can you still purchase shares? I’m looking to put in £1000. 

[old caley girl]

8 minutes ago, Pele_Is_God said:

Can you still purchase shares? I’m looking to put in £1000. 

I believe if you contact club they will sort for you 

[Yngwie]

10 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

 in a league where our player quality and budget is at a level where everyone acknowledges we should be top 2 or 3 clubs with strong favoritism for promotion.

Eh? I don’t know anyone who thinks that. Surely our wage budget puts us mid table with a realistic aim of reaching the play-offs.

[bdu98196]

3 minutes ago, Yngwie said:

Surely our wage budget puts us mid table with a realistic aim of reaching the play-offs.

Wow, and with that low bar acceptance and belief the club can basically do what they want.

[+DoofersDad]

The Club has now also posted its Confirmation Statement on the Companies House website.  This list all the shareholders together with the number of shares they hold.

[Northern_jaggie]

The supporters deserve and need unabbreviated accounts, too much is shady in what has been published. Smearing the actualities with club statements and an AGM simply won’t cut it. 

[BobbyDazzler]

I would imagine if this really is a financial crisis then the youth system will be the first thing to be sacrificed. The club could potentially keep the better current u18s and loan them out. 

[Charles Bannerman]

3 hours ago, Northern_jaggie said:

The supporters deserve and need unabbreviated accounts, too much is shady in what has been published. Smearing the actualities with club statements and an AGM simply won’t cut it. 

Spot on NJ. I find the minimalism associated with this whole affair very unacceptable. 
The excerpts from the accounts don’t even give profit and loss and to find the loss you have to scour the notes. This also means that there’s no indication of the vital parameter of turnover, which hence also prevents anyone from working out what the loss is as a percentage of expenditure or turnover which I think is quite important.

Then there’s today’s verbose statement which is most notable for its attempts to create a smokescreen obscuring what really matters. I am absolutely astonished that a statement made on behalf of the Chairman 24 hours after the account details have leaked out via parties unconnected with the club should fail even to have an acknowledgement of how big the loss is.

The statement failed to take ownership of extremely adverse circumstances which, as I write, the club itself has not yet acknowledged.

And then there’s the first revelation of the date of the overdue AGM which appears incidentally to something else, and half way through this wordy statement.

This doesn’t exactly make it very easy to obtain information about what’s clearly a critical situation.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Charles Bannerman