Pre-Merger

[ymip]

Caley and Clach have won the HL the same number of times (18 each).  Obviously somewhat skewed by the fact we departed the in 94.

Good link to historic HL winners below.  Illustrates the fact that over the piece (pre and post war) Caley were THE team in the highlands :blah01::

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/scot-highchamp.html

[Charles Bannerman]

We seem to have grown a parallel debate here.... "was Elgin City more or less successful as a Highland League club than Caley/ Inverness clubs in general?" It's a fascinating topic but different from the original thread.

Smee... yes, I am saying just that. Caley on their own would not have had as much backing from the local community as ICT because Caley was one of three football factions in the town and a lot of potential backers would have preferred not to nail their colours to that one mast. I don't know how much you experienced of the politics around merger time but the strong indications were that a merged bid was going to be far more acceptable to just about everybody (apart from the Rebels of course!) I found this strongly confirmed when I was researching my book.

On the subject of the "refuseniks", I'll just repeat what I said on another thread recently.... the people who still decline to attend are a smallish proportion of the 600 or so who were the combined core support of Thistle and Caley. They now amount to no more than a few dozen in the face of the current ICT core support of 3000. A drop in the ocean. This one is a complete myth, fondly espoused by those of the anti merger persuasion.

LadyC... I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that you were one of the said Rebels! "Some local enterprise funding" amounted to over half a million which INE categorically said they would only give to a merged bid. But the biggest part of a total of ?1.8M of public funding which went into CT was the ?900,000 Common Good grant which so very nearly didn't happen in any case and would have had absolutely no chance at all with Caley alone. Then add the ?486,000 which Kingsmills Park realised, in addition to whatever they got for the Thistle club, and you have a "merger bonus" of approaching ?2.5 Million. In comparison, remember that all Caley had to offer was the 1 million obtained for Telford Street.

But look, we're in danger of departing from the original hypothetical question of how viable Caley might have been on its own and turning to a rerun of the old merger debate of 93/94 which has been had already and we are now looking at the product of that process in the SPL.

[SMEE]

Its good to debate tho Charles as long as things dont get heated. Bottom line is, I dont think al ever swallow the propoganda surrounding the merger and I dont think i will ever be convinced  that a lone Caley scottish league team could not have flourished, taking aside the bully boy tactics.

Charles, to your knowledge, why exactly did Clach pull out?

[Kingsmills]

Smee the events that clearly still excercise you were  a decade and a half ago, surely you've had time now to get over the merger.

As far as Clach pulling out is concerned, the official line was that  as a limited company, rather than a members association as Thistle and Caley were at the time, there were too many technical difficulties to overcome to allow them to pool their resourses with the other two. That, of course,was nonsense. To speculate in public on the true reason would be defamatory even now.

[ymip]

Charles - to suggest the refuseniks only amount to a few dozen is absolute nonsense.  I seldom see hardcore Howden Enders at TCS and would suggest that the true figure would be well into the hundreds.  Same applies to ex Jaggies but I'm sure our red and black friends could confirm or deny this figure.  If you could trace the whereabouts of the entire support at the last Caley - Jags game at Telford Street I would imagine a very high proportion have never followed ICT.  We lost a lot of diehard Invernessian football people who would have created a real hardcore support which ICT has consistently struggled to create over the years.

I also disagree with your asertion that Caley couldn't have thrived in the Scottish League on their own.  How exactly do you reconcile this suggestion with the fact that County did reasonably well up until we point we were promoted to the SPL?  I refuse to accept that the  5,000 fans Caley took to McDiarmid Park on a miserable midweek night in 1992 couldn't have kept us afloat a mere two seasons later.

The merger is history.  I didn't like it and have never truly accepted it was a merger rather than a takeover. Time moves on and I'm proud of what ICT has achieved but there will always be a part of me that hankers after the good old days at Telford Street.

[Kingsmills]

I would be very surprised indeed if those former Caley and Thistle fans combined who refuse to  attend ICT matches due to failure to accept the merger amount to more than a few dozen.

[Charles Bannerman]

Smee... that's what's been so good about this debate so far... it has been extremely civilised and I am fascinated by the viewpoints with which I don't agree because I found the whole issue of merger scepticism within both clubs absolutely intriguing, even though it was not my private standpoint. The official line from Clach was indeed the difficulty of joining a limited company owned by its directors who had just put a lot of their own money into saving it with two members' clubs which were in effect owned by largish numbers of season ticket holders. However I do think that there was another factor there in that the Clach directors, who could run their own club as they liked, saw a lot of potential future grief coming from the other two.

ymip... your last post...

Para 1 - Look at it this way - after all the furious recruiting that went on (on both sides) in advance of the First Battle of Rose Street in December 1993, the Rebels were only able to field something over 200. I would suggest that it is unlikely that anyone so rabidly anti merger as to refuse to attend CT games would have failed to join that group. And I am in addition quite sure that a very large proportion, of even that 200 odd relented and have attended. The Thistle refusenik contingent was, I believe, an even smaller proportion of an even smaller fan base, so we are really talking about a drop in the ocean in relation to current regular attendances. I would also suggest that the numbers not attending for that reason are in fact smaller than the fan base that would have been lost in the absence of Thistle (ie Caley only)

Para 2 - it is not representative to take the 5000 people who turned out for one of the most famous events in Inverness football history and attempt to make a generalisation out of that, or even a substantial fraction of them. The vast majority of them were simply the one- or two-game Glory Hunters who would only very seldom be seen among the few hundred which was far more the norm at Telford Street.  We still see such Glory Hunters among the 7700 (5200 home fans) we now get under similar circumstances when the OF visit, but one suspects very seldom otherwise.

As far as County are concerned... let's look at why they did "reasonably well". Most importantly, the perception has been that a number of very wealthy directors have aided their finances hugely and have probably kept them above the water to a far greater extent than at Inverness with David Sutherland (who, by the way, was a Jaggie!) They also did not have the liability of finding a new stadium (although they did upgrade theirs considerably) and also for some reason a bigger proportion of Ross shire folk turn out than in Inverness - and that would be even smaller if it was Caley Only.

Para 3 - absolutely agreed. The merger is history, but by God, it's an intriguing history. "Merger rather than takeover". Come off it ymip! I could understand the Jaggies claiming that since they (albeit quite rightly) became the lesser partners. But Caley! This was an unequal merger and the controversial issue after it became reality was the precise degree of inequality. Impossible to work out scientifically but my gut feeling is that the balance is just about right with a significant balance towards the Caley side.

A further point. Even as a merged entity, en route to the SPL, ICT still managed to run up a ?2M plus debt and were only miraculously baled out by the mysterious Trust and the generosity of the said former Jaggie. Would Caley on their own have been able to survive such a crisis?

Apologies again to those who don't like my long posts (not as long as some of Scotty's though!) but this is a really fascinating issue which has intrigued me for years.

[Kind of Blue]

Charles you're correct to point the Council contribution of ?900k - in addition they also applied a below market rate for the rental of the Longman land.  I remember how touch and go the decision was to grant ?900k - there is no way they would have given this to Caley on its own.

Caley was in my blood because my dad was a committee member for many years - so it was inevitable that I would support them.  My first season supporting them home and away was 1976/77.  I t was a good season to pick as we won the league and a cup.

As for the merger, I actually voted against it because I felt (at the time) that we should go it alone.  I soon realised that this view was mistaken and I have fully supported the merger ever since.

[SMEE]

I thought that the ?900 000 was a LOAN toward the cost of a road the council needed in place to make the land accessible :024:

[ymip]

Charles , The point I was trying to make was that in my eyes Caley effectively consumed the Jags and as such I tend to consider ICT as a continuation of the Caley heritage.  I'm sure others will disgaree but hey, ho.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic it's just my take on events and I would reiterate I'm fully committed to ICT and continued SPL football in the sneck. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the quantitative and qualitative effect of the refusenik situation.

[Charles Bannerman]

Smee... no it was definitely a grant to bridge the funding gap in the stadium and even at that the original stadium plans had to be cut back. The grant very nearly came unstuck too.... on no more than a legal opinion of the meaning of the word "payable" in a resolution scribbled on a piece of paper in the heat of a debate. Funnily enough when I was heading for the resignation press conference today, I noticed that Morrisons are now reclaiming even more land off the road which is a direct result of the stadium going there.

ymip... if I had to put numbers on it I would say that the merger was around 70% Caley, 30% Jags and I think the settlement reflects that. Some Jaggies wanted 50/50 but that's as unrealistic as the Caley people who wanted 100/0. I'm very pleased that you look on this as the continuation of a heritage. That's important although we obviously disagree as to which heritage. I prefer to look on it as the continuation of the Inverness football heritage, with the added bonus that the original Clach still lives on.

Ironically sad, though, to be talking about this on the day of the resignation of the club's first Invernessian manager and a veteran and major figure in the merger days to boot.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Mr Dosser - let me abridge and explain concisely.

There has only ever been one club in Sneck and that is Caley. The Caley supporters have always pitied the Jeggies but we are two faced and superior and simply suffer them. Clachers are mostly winos who usually dont notice who is feckin playing anyway.

[Guest eliza]

IHE - as a Caley Supporter of yore and an ICT supporter of now, your last post has made me have a good laugh before bed!  Many thanks!  I like going to bed happy (and alone).

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dont call me Happy.

[Alex MacLeod]

The jaggies will win out in the end.

ICT home strip Red and Blue

ICT away strip Red and Black

As the Ulster exile say's:

          THE RED AND BLACK will COMEBACK

[Kingsmills]

We're already well on the way !

[old caley girl]

I lived in Telford Street and started going to the Caley park in 1975.  I come from a Caley background my grandfather was chairman of Caley in the 1950's. His son my uncle is the present programme editor for ICT.

I loved the highland league days and to be honest I still miss them but I was young free and single then not a mum of 3 as I am now. I still believe Caley could have gone it alone and done as well but I was very proud when we made the spl. The important thing is that we can remember where the club came from but also keep doing well in the future.

On the Clach thing they could not sell it to their supporters at the time and pulled out. Thistle did'nt really have much prob getting it through but Caley! well we all remember what happened.

I now take my sons to the football and enjoy telling them of the old days.

[Charles Bannerman]

OCG.... I have to say I was never aware of the problem of Clach not being able to sell the merger to their supporters. After all, they alone of the three were the club which didn't have to sell it to their supporters. Clach was (and still is) a limited company owned by its directors who could do what they liked on a vote at a board meeting. Thistle and Caley, on the other hand, were members' clubs and therefore very much under the influence of their season ticket holders to whom they were accountable at general meetings - as happened on a number of memorable occasions during 1993 and 1994 - and it was this which certainly held things back on the Caley side and took Jags so close to pulling out of the merger.

PS - if your first attendance at Telford Street was as recently as 1975, you're not really entitled to call yourself "old" by the standards of some of the people who frequent this part of the forum in particular!  :015:

[Alex MacLeod]

Thats right....Charlie Bannerman is the only member of this site with the priviledge to call himself old :003:

[Charles Bannerman]

I seem to have read somewhere that Alex MacLeod is, or is on the verge of, the same decade as I am!

[old caley girl]

Charles, as I previously mentioned I'm a mum of 3 boys maybe I just feel old!  Actually I picked the name as my background is the 'old Caley' ie Caledonian FC as opposed to ICT and I also come from an old Caley family. Anyway you're only as old as you feel!

[Guest eliza]

And I think I am older than the lot of you, so there!!!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Feckin pensioner.  :001:

[clacher_holiday2]

my dad is the same age as charles bannerman (same school and classes even) and he claims to now be old

its all relative, i attended my first game at telford street in 1991 (i was more excited about getting a sausage roll and a mars bar once a week than the football  :tic01: (doubles as eating a boiling fat drenched sausage roll smiley?)) and i definitely feel old

[Kingsmills]

There was another reason for the directors of Clach being reluctant to join the merger which I'm sure Mr Bannerman has at least heard rumoured.