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Mistake or Execution?


Guest Spectre

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Of course the policeman is telling porkies ( pun intended ), its not the first time and certainly wont be the last that a policeman murders an innocent civilian and then lies to get off with it. ACAB.

So very true,there has been endless police cover ups,definitely not the first person to die at the hands of the police and won't be the last

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Reminds me of the poor Polish (or Czech) sod who was tasered 4 times at Vancouver Airport just a few months ago .He arrived top visit his mother.

Did not speak English and they put him into a sort of holding tank room (without food or water so it seems) for at least ten hours. Left him completely without communication with anyone, refused to allow his mother to see him .

The man got stroppy and upset and scared and took a chair and slammed it into the window.

4 young strong cops arrived with tasers. Without warning ,as they approached him and he was not being aggressive just trying to communicate, one of them saps him. The effect was to double him up, then he turned away from them and staggered away from them. They then descended on him like a pack of vultures - another tasered him again and he fell. Then another whilst he was on the ground and he eventually lay still. Clearest case of murder that I ever saw. The cops denied that their game plan was to use him as a taser block (same as a chopping block but tasers instead of a sword etc) and the investigation is still ongoing. The footage was sensational and caused a right rumpus in the press and TV. But what happened ? NOTHING except "more reviews".

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I think these situations have to be looked at in context and don't for a minute think these armed polis go in wanting to kill or trigger happy,but intellgence (wrongly) had informed them at a very volatile time this man was positively identified as a terrorist and went in thinking he was armed and likely to blow himself and them up with him.The Polis that shot him reckoned he could not gaurantee instant death with a single shot so multiple shots were fired to ensure he was unable to carry out any terrorist actions.It's easy to pontificate that they are professional and procedures have to be followed but they are also human and whether actual or percieved,thinking you are seconds from death will make your actions more instinctive.Nae doubt mistakes were made but mebbes the surveillance folk supplying the intelligance should be a bit more accountable.

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A sad product of the fear we now live with in regards to terrorism.

I also agree with much of what Heilandee has said, but would add that even the surveillance team would have been under considerable pressure knowing that their was potentially a man running around with a bomb strapped to his chest.

There's probably 1001 quick decisions had to be made by various people during the event and all it takes is one error in judgement for this to happen. Likewise, had they been right in their identification it would have only taken one error for us to be sitting here mourning a train full of dead people and discussing whether the pursuing officer was to blame for all those deaths because he never took lethal action.

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It would certainly seem like that is the case, but I doubt them shouting "Police" or "Armed Police" would have had any impact on the eventual outcome of the incident. The armed officers went in there under extreme pressure and in the belief that they were facing a suicide bomber....had Menezes so much as sniffed he was going to land up with a bullet in him. Whether we like it or not, it was the only course of action that the armed officers were ever going to take unless they had received an order to stand down before reaching the train. When your under the impression that the guy has a bomb strapped to his chest, your not going to give him the slightest chance to trigger it.....and that includes a warning that your a police officer.

It's the information and surveillance that put the armed officers in that position which needs to be investigated. Armed officers in those circumstances need to know that they can rely on the instructions/orders they have been given and that they aren't going to be jailed for the decisions of others. If they are made the scapegoats in this case just to pacify the public then the next time when they might be faced with an actual suicide bomber, a moments hesitation could result in the loss of far more lives.

Someone somewhere made a mistake that cost Menezes his life, but I don't think it was the armed officer/s, they are just the easy target because they are out there on the front line. If we tie their hands too tight or put them in a situation where they become accountable for following orders. then they will start to doubt those orders as a matter of course, that will only result in the loss of even higher numbers of innocent lives.

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The UK Police have had a "shoot to kill" policy for situations involving suspected terrorists and suicide bombers since late in 2001 (no doubt prompted by the 9/11 events) and they were activated following the London bombing on 7th July 2005.

In fact, everyone in the UK, be they police, military or civilian, has the right to use violence in order to protect their own physical well being or the well being of others, and that includes the use of lethal force. It's not necessarily as clear cut as that and it obviously has to be justifiable, but the right exists all the same.

The argument in this case was whether or not the use of deadly force was justified. My view on it as far as the police officers were concerned, is that they had been told they were dealing with a suicide bomber, and therefore actions were justified on that basis. Whether those who passed that information to the armed officers were justified in coming to that decision is yet to be determined...at least in terms of us being able to come to any conclusion based on info in the public domain.

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I agree with much of what's been said about the extremely high level of fear and tension prevailing at the time and tend to believe that an error, or to be more accurate a succession of serious errors were made rather than any deliberate plan to take the man out come what may. That, in the circumstances is just about pardonable.

What is inexcusable, in my opinion, is that now, in the cold light of day and having had years to reflect on the issue, police officers are apparently conspiring to perjure themselves to show there action in a somewhat better light and at the same time implying that innocent civillian witnesses, who have no motivation for being anything other than entirely honest, are lying.

Now that's nothing short of disgraceful !

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In fact, everyone in the UK, be they police, military or civilian, has the right to use violence in order to protect their own physical well being or the well being of others, and that includes the use of lethal force. It's not necessarily as clear cut as that and it obviously has to be justifiable, but the right exists all the same.

Dont think thats quite right CD. I believe the law gives a person "the right to use reasonable force". This was challenged when the farmer mannie down south shot a guy who broke into his property. He still ended up getting two years for culpable homicide.

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If he had been a bomber, which was their belief at the time, and they had carried out this same action, they would have been decorated for approaching this man with no regard for their own lives and saving others on that tube.

As someone has already said - someone in the chain of command must take the blame for an officer making a large mistake and giving the incorrect order!

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If he had been a bomber, which was their belief at the time, and they had carried out this same action, they would have been decorated for approaching this man with no regard for their own lives and saving others on that tube.

As someone has already said - someone in the chain of command must take the blame for an officer making a large mistake and giving the incorrect order!

If he'd been a suicide bomber all wrapped up in gelegnite, and one of those 15 bullets had hit the right point there the only decorating would be bits of human tissue, bricks and mortar scattered around London

Edited by Alex MacLeod
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If he had been a bomber, which was their belief at the time, and they had carried out this same action, they would have been decorated for approaching this man with no regard for their own lives and saving others on that tube.

As someone has already said - someone in the chain of command must take the blame for an officer making a large mistake and giving the incorrect order!

If he'd been a suicide bomber all wrapped up in gelegnite, and one of those 15 bullets had hit the right point there the only decorating would be bits of human tissue, bricks and mortar scattered around London

OK Alex - posthumously!

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I was working in London at the time, once the initial bombs had gone off it was pretty edgy on the tube to be honest. I had a day off on the day of the first bombs, which was just as well as they blew up my regular train at Aldgate! After that they drafted in loads of coppers form outside London who didn't have a clue what to look for. No-one who wasn't a bomber would have argued with the armed coppers that were everywhere, I guess if they'd shouted at Menezes he'd have co-operated and if he didn't they have just shot him. It sounds to me like they just shot him, but they were under orders to do so.

Cressida Dick gave the order yet she's not on trial...typical

Still, all I needed to do to get a carriage to myself was to carry a rucksack. Got a right bollocking off my missus when she found my Tube tickets as I'd said I'd travel by cab....but there were 4 hour queues for cabs at the time.

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