reefinweedallday

See my post #224, I'm pretty sure the revenue was publicly reconciled to the STs in issue, but perhaps someone can confirm or refute my recollection. Certain people bought season tickets and distributed them to their cronies in the Caley club to ensure a yes vote . 100% correct.A lot of season tickets handed out "free" to people who didn't even follow football....as long as they could say YES it was ok.Although Mr Bannerman will re-write history and pretend none of this happened.

A very linear and simplistic viewpoint, Charles, which I'm afraid just doesn't hold water. As you're probably aware, many years before the merger Caley had been trying to relocate with a view to Scottish League entry. I think there was a site in Carse which had been considered although the District Council had been very obstructive to this proposal. Had it gone ahead we would have had a Scottish League team in Inverness with a stadium within easy walking distance of thousands of houses and with room for expansion to accommodate the growing support. No need for £4.8M stadium budgets and no need for another team's assets. And with such an accessible stadium, attendances would probably exceed those of ICT now. I mention this because there are so many ifs and buts that you can't just make a statement like "it couldn't have happened without the merger". Of course it could! Also, I have to take exception to your statement that "Caley weren't that popular . . . actively disliked in Inverness." This is simply not true! That's a belter from Mr Bannerman,Caley were actively disliked in Inverness? I was a Thistle fan but even i know this is lies Caley had a bigger fanbase than Thistle with Clach probably having the biggest support of the lot before they went in to terminal decline.

Urban myth!! No they werent. so everybody paid for them then?

Now that's a pretty damning admission to be making for someone who has spent much of today making blanket assertions and accusations (albeit totally lacking substance) about events of the very era in question! As it happens my memory serves me quite well... even better since I happened to listen through to over an hour of broadcast material from the time over the holidays..... and I certainly have no recollection at all of reporting that Peter Donald was accosted by hooligans... notwithstanding the way a number of them frequently behaved! On the other hand if Reefinweed would care to indicated in which publication or in which radio broadcast I allegedly said this, it may help to clarify the matter. Maybe also it's Reef's dodgy memory which prevents him from recollecting that BOTH sides within Caley recruited equally vigorously in that autumn of 1993 to the extent that, although ST holders increased from just over 100 to 576, the whole exercise only changed the voting figures by 0.1% (zero point one per cent) at the 1st December meeting compared with the 9th September one. And even after that exhaustive recruitment, the Rebels could only muster 226 people sufficiently "anti" to vote as such. But really, this thread has spent much of the day floundering among assertions which belong firmly to the same stable as "Hitler is alive and well in Bolivia", "The Loch Ness Monster has been doing somesaults in front of Urquhart Castle", a Lancaster bomber has just landed on the moon" and "Lord Lucan is hiding Shergar on a ranch in Western Australia". Charles you should take up a new occupation...David Camerons new spin doctor perhaps?? so you are you saying that the "anti-merger" "phonebox" brigade bought season tickets to vote yes?? I believe the club handed out over 100 free season tickets just in the days prior to the vote not to mention how many were handed out in the weeks leading up to the vote.Would that have been perhaps because the vote was a lot closer than you are suggesting.Roughly in the region of 450 season ticket books handed out to swing the vote. You as the man that his written a book about the subject must know that the players were told in no uncertain terms which way to vote...enough of them making it known how unhappy they were about it at the time.I believe wad was the only one who told them not a chance? or are you disputing this fact as well? As for the article about "accosted by hooligans" i will find out for you if it was a radio piece or a written article.I still to this day can't understand why you said that when it was people handing a petition to the league secretary? Feelings ran very high at the time i'm sure there was behaviour that wasn't great but i'm sure this piece was written or broadcast on the day of the vote,at the Kingsmills hotel i believe? Perhaps it was in your interest to blacken the "refusenicks name" the "phonebox brigade" "the rebels" or whatever other slanderous name you wish to call them this week? still hurt does it?

in what sense?

Its the semi-annual merger threads The only unanswered question I have about the merger is which team IHE supported before Caley? Obviously he is Immortal and therefore born before football was even invented ........ Must have been Citadel or Springfield

You really must start believing me Scotty!!! very true about the home kit identity reasoning but the statement said that it was a unique design to Scottish football,clearly we can see it is not. Not being pedantic renegade merely pointing out that it was not unique to scottish football as you stated

Why would there be a "hole" in the clubs accounts when they were handed out free? that makes no sense

This I agree with ...... I would agree that 'some' travelling on these buses may have been former Caley or Thistle fans but not "the vast majority". The simple fact of the matter is that there were buses going up and down the A9 while Telford St and Kingsmills Park were hosting Highland League football. I went to school with a fair few who were always fans of Celtic/Rangers or other clubs and who occasionally went to local football if they were skint or their big team were not playing that week. As I got older, I also socialised with a number of the same folk as well as others who did the same so it didnt start when Caley and Thistle merged, it merely continued ... but I will agree again, there may be some who formerly went to Telford St or Kingsmills who decided to jump on the bus in much the same manner as there are some who only started following ICT when they came into existence and had no allegiance to either of the pre-merger teams. I personally know of at least two on opposite sides of the world now so its not restricted to the central belt ! Having said that, we all know that many Inverness football supporters (regardless of allegiance) supported one of the two merger partners and also had a "big" team ... It stands to reason that moving closer to the home ground of their big team in the central belt would make it easier to go there than it would to the TCS ..... The bottom line for me is that Caley and Thistle ceased to exist. Some - like AD/Kavs etc - saw that as "the end" and made a personal choice not to have anything to do with the new club. I can respect that, and even sympathise with some of the venom that was spewed ... I (and this website) would likely be the same if it were suggested that ICT merge with County to form "Highlanders FC" or something like that. However, others (and I include myself in that) saw it as a "new beginning" and I would hope that the 'refuseniks' or at least some of them could respect that choice too. I know that some did as I had that conversation with more than one of them ..... and on more than one occasion. I was not a 'rebel', nor did I become a season ticket holder to vote in the merger debates. The reason for this was because my work schedule meant I typically worked 3 Saturdays out of every 5 and I was at best only a semi-regular at Telford Street so did not feel any entitlement to decide on the path to be taken. That work schedule changed around the time of the merger so when CT were formed, I was able to become a permanent fixture at home games and even got to quite a few away grounds ... I immediately dropped my allegiance to my "big" team and will be "ICT til I die" regardless of my geographic location. These merger debates that crop up every so often are usually pretty tiresome and we could basically regurgitate the ones from previous years and see the same responses, but one thing I have noticed over the last couple of debates is that there are more voices in the discussion who have little or no knowledge of the pre-merger teams. We have a fair number of ICT fans who are 18 or under and whilst us older folk have the merger and our opinions about it firmly entrenched, these young supporters dont have the same baggage as they were not even born at the time ! For them, our history is going from D3 to SPL in 10 years, it is beating Celtic at Parkhead and the ballistic headline, it is beating Hearts at Tynie a couple of years later, it is gaining promotion to the SPL at the end of the 2003/4 season, it is playing at Pittodrie as a home venue, it is our only relegation season and the bounceback, it is Pele, Robbo and Butcher, it is everything else that is mentioned in the other thread about what it is to be an ICT supporter ...... I will end with one final thought ...... I dont know what would have happened had Caley and Thistle applied separately to the league, no-one does. I can theorise, and that theory would see both teams flitting between D2 and D1 and having the odd cup run that ultimately ended in failure maybe around the QF mark, with the SPL and national finals a lofty but ultimately unachievable goal. However, one thing I do know for a fact is that Inverness Caledonian Thistle are on the world map. I talk to people all the time at Toronto games and huge numbers of them are quite knowledgeable about the world game. Most follow EPL or La Liga as opposed to SPL, but even those who only follow English teams have normally heard of ICT, know at least something about the club (even if only the ballistic headline) and have certainly heard of Terry Butcher ... if we had not taken that giant leap back in 93, then I firmly believe Caledonian FC and Inverness Thistle would have merely been seen as one of these "novelty" names that appeared every so often in the Scottish cup ..... a bit like when someone asked me "who or what are a Clackna-something-or-other" I'm fully in agreement,i was merely trying to put a point across that i believe thistle or caley would have had a similair fan base if they had been allowed to go it alone,thats my belief and i don't expect everyone to have it not even the minority anymore!! Like you say there are a lot of younger fans and people who have moved to the area who have no knowledge of the old teams and they form a large majority of the ICT support..It's been been debated countless times and we could go round in circles all day.The real sticking point for "the rebels" and fans who didn't want their club taken away was the name,if it had been called just Inverness fc or something similair i think they would have saved a whole lot of problems,as i have said on previous posts most would have embraced scottish league with open arms if it had been done in the right way. Another sticking point i'd say was where they wanted to move the ground to(Why oh why Mr Cordiner??). For the people who weren't around at the time perhaps they should do a little research before commenting.I stand by the FACT that it was done in an underhand way to self serve certain individuals. Anyway it happened nearly 20yrs ago don't even know how my memory serves me so well.....

Once again you are attempting to refer to anecdotal evidence which you have not made stand up. If you want to claim that, it's up to you and not to me to back it up. But in any case, the relevant figure is what is, by current standards, the rather small number of 226, despite all the recruitment by the rebels, who actually voted against after all that recruitment - and only a small proportion even of that still choose to stay away. A tiny loss for a massive gain. Charles i asked you to tell the truth...if you don't believe me perhaps you should ask some of the players around at the time(lazy journalism on your behalf if you never did it at the time) you know the FACTS so please do not try and gloss over them.Nothing will change ICT are the club now and thats "progress" but please deal in the facts as you know them,perhaps it wouldn't look good if you said the "real" story how many "new" season ticket holders was there in the weeks leading up to the vote? was there mysteriously over 100 new season tickets holders in the weeks prior to the vote? which in the cold light of day was enough to swing the vote? Also while we are dealing in facts is it not true that you reported that Peter Donald was "accosted by hooligans"? when in fact he was being presented with a petition? what was the reason for that? Reef... you keep making assertions which you then fail to back up by evidence but still aks me questions about. It's YOUR responsibility to back up any case you want to make.... not mine!!! Charles do i need to back up the fact about that report? did you or did you not report that mis-information? if you really want me to trawl back and find it i'm sure it can be done. A truthfull answer did you or did you not report that mis-information and what was the reason for it? As for the other piece it is a well known FACT as you very well know but it wouldn't adhere to tell "truths" about the people who gave away season tickets to swing the vote would it. As of the September that year there were 130 season ticket holders...in the weeks running up to the vote there were 576.Must have been some silky football played in those few months Charles? or would it be as i stated that certain elements of the Caledonian fc board went about things in an underhand manner ie handing out about 450 "free" season tickets(on the basis they would give a yes vote).Or was it just a coincedence that there was a mad rush of 4 times the original season ticket holders from the start of the season?

Once again you are attempting to refer to anecdotal evidence which you have not made stand up. If you want to claim that, it's up to you and not to me to back it up. But in any case, the relevant figure is what is, by current standards, the rather small number of 226, despite all the recruitment by the rebels, who actually voted against after all that recruitment - and only a small proportion even of that still choose to stay away. A tiny loss for a massive gain. Charles i asked you to tell the truth...if you don't believe me perhaps you should ask some of the players around at the time(lazy journalism on your behalf if you never did it at the time) you know the FACTS so please do not try and gloss over them.Nothing will change ICT are the club now and thats "progress" but please deal in the facts as you know them,perhaps it wouldn't look good if you said the "real" story how many "new" season ticket holders was there in the weeks leading up to the vote? was there mysteriously over 100 new season tickets holders in the weeks prior to the vote? which in the cold light of day was enough to swing the vote? Also while we are dealing in facts is it not true that you reported that Peter Donald was "accosted by hooligans"? when in fact he was being presented with a petition? what was the reason for that? Reef... you keep making assertions which you then fail to back up by evidence but still aks me questions about. It's YOUR responsibility to back up any case you want to make.... not mine!!! Charles do i need to back up the fact about that report? did you or did you not report that mis-information? if you really want me to trawl back and find it i'm sure it can be done. A truthfull answer did you or did you not report that mis-information and what was the reason for it? As for the other piece it is a well known FACT as you very well know but it wouldn't adhere to tell "truths" about the people who gave away season tickets to swing the vote would it.

Once again you are attempting to refer to anecdotal evidence which you have not made stand up. If you want to claim that, it's up to you and not to me to back it up. But in any case, the relevant figure is what is, by current standards, the rather small number of 226, despite all the recruitment by the rebels, who actually voted against after all that recruitment - and only a small proportion even of that still choose to stay away. A tiny loss for a massive gain. Charles i asked you to tell the truth...if you don't believe me perhaps you should ask some of the players around at the time(lazy journalism on your behalf if you never did it at the time) you know the FACTS so please do not try and gloss over them.Nothing will change ICT are the club now and thats "progress" but please deal in the facts as you know them,perhaps it wouldn't look good if you said the "real" story how many "new" season ticket holders was there in the weeks leading up to the vote? was there mysteriously over 100 new season tickets holders in the weeks prior to the vote? which in the cold light of day was enough to swing the vote? Also while we are dealing in facts is it not true that you reported that Peter Donald was "accosted by hooligans"? when in fact he was being presented with a petition? what was the reason for that?

??? You baffle me sometimes you really do.I have in no way offended or given you any offensive replies,you have tried to debate a topic you don't understand or know much about as you always do. You have by your own admission said many times that you were a Caley fan but didn't go to games.You in fact i believe didn't start attending ICT regularly until a few years after the club had been up and running.So please don't make out that you are the "one-voice2 authority of ICT fans or Inverness football fans. I have never tried to support anythingthe merger has happened and nothing will change on that..i have stated facts that it lost the club hundreds of fans.it was done in an underhand way and either Caley or Thistle could have gone on their own. where is your debate as to why they couldn't have gone alone? It's ICT and we get 3000 fans so let's not discuss it further because i don't really know much about it? It's a merger thread therefore open to debate on both sides.....

Reef... why can't people just accept the facts based on concrete evidence rather than continually regurgitating the same anecdotal and unsubstantiated myths based on wishful tninking? PRE MERGER * Typical combined attendances at Telford Street and Kingsmills were around 600. * About 160 attended between the two original merger meetings. * After both sides within Caley recruited exhaustively for weeks and, note, with season tickets costing just £20 for adults (and £10 for juveniles) they managed to increase that to 576 - of whom 226 voted against the merger in the second vote. POST MERGER * There is a core minimum home attendance of nearly 3000 but more typically nearer 3500. CONCLUSION - Irrespective of a very few who may not have wished to buy into it, the merger has resulted in hugely increased numbers of people watching football at a hugely higher level and has hence contributed massively to the game in this area. Your base maximum figure for refuseniks is 226, many of whom now attend, have left the area or have died. So where are all these people that this serial wishful thinking, based on bald claims with no evidence whatsoever is coming up with? SUGGESTION TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO MAKE THESE VACUOUS CLAIMS - join the Flat Earth Society whose views have a rather better chance of enjoying some credibility. Charles regale us with the "facts" out of those 576 season ticket holders,how many were handed out by Mr Macgillvary,Mr Falconer et all? please do not lie to make yourself look good on here. Why also at the time did you "Mis-report" certain events? was this for your own gain or to discredit certain sections of the support?

Oh you know me then? i can't help the fact you make statements that aren't true and i have to correct you

Think i already posted we can only make assumptions did i not......keep up lad We don't have to assume anything about ICT.....it happened and all the facts and figures are there, no speculation involved in that side of the discussion. have you read anything? another ridiculous post, suppose it gets the post count up a bit more

hmmm have a look at their away kit Our away kit this season is White, but you wouldn't say ICT play in White!!! ok so when they play away in white i will say they played in blue will i? haha that is quite incredible

hmmm have a look at their away kit Hmmm I think it's clear people are taking about the home shirt... really? i think if i read correctly you said it was unique to the Scottish game? no mention of home or away kits.Happy to help educate you

Think i already posted we can only make assumptions did i not......keep up lad

hmmm have a look at their away kit

Woosh!! My point being that people followed Caley or Thistle,yes they still supported other SPL teams because Inverness wasn't in the league. Once they merger happened these people started following their SPL team and got on these buses or got on trains to follow "other" teams when they would have been happy to follow Inverness if it had been done in a proper fashion and not the underhand way it was. I don't expect you to understand the feelings D you didn't follow football then so i understand you don't have a full grasp on things.

Not disputing that fact in the slightest D.I am trying to offer a debate from the "other" side and i will always stand by the 100s figure as i personally know so many that follow other SPL teams all because of the merger.We can only make presumptions but i believe we would have had similair crowds had the club been called Caley oR Thistle most in Inverness were desperate for a club to get in to the Scottish leagues,it's more the underhand way things were rushed through that sticks in a lot of peoples throats.

Name them. Would you know them all? you must be the Electoral roll? I dont believe there are still 100s (if there were ever quite that many) ...... There may have been a fair sized group in 93/94 and beyond, but some have decided to follow ICT, for some life changes happened and football would no longer be in their weekly plans anyway, some are no longer with us on this planet, and still others have moved to the other side of various oceans ...... There may be 'dozens' around in total, but once you consider only those in Inverness or still attending football (at other grounds) then I would suggest the number is in single figures ! So you dont believe that there are supporters buses leaving for Celtic Park,Ibrox,Pittodrie? on a weekly basis as well as the people travelling on trains and buses to the likes of Hibs,Dundee United and Hearts? How many does a bus full of supporters hold? the vast majority who travel on these buses were at one time Thistle or Caley fans.

Clacher if you can find anything about the merger you should read up on it.....or ask Charles to tell you the full ins and outs. Mr Dougie Macgillvary and some of his fellow board members i believe paid money to people to go along to vote.banned certain "members" from being allowed to vote,told the players exactly which way they should all vote...or face the consequences. You were also only allowed to vote if you were a season ticket holder,in those days i dont remember the vast majority having season tickets the grounds could hold 3000+ it was never going to be a sell out and for us young lads on a couple of quid pocket money a week a season ticket was a lot of paper rounds!!

I'm not so sure about the couple of thousand picked up? Inverness has grown in size quite dramatically from 1994 to the present day and has a lot of incomers who had no affiliation to either club. ICT do have a lot of fans outwith inverness and who have moved here for work etc,that much you can not debate surely? add that to the fact that Inverness had a club in the Scottish league and a combination of both Caley and Thistle fans who didn't stay away i dont think the figure is anywhere near the couple of thousand you believe. I stand by the statement that ICT can not afford to have any stayaway fans,nor any club in the present climate for that matter.It's neither here nor there if you believe this number to be correct,i actually believe it is a few hundred higher but for debate's sake i am calculating it at a nice round hundred just to point out the club can not afford to lose money in any way.I do believe that this season ICT could do with those few hundred more than ever looking at the attendance figures.