rinomac

 

So you are saying that you wouldn't want to risk having to play such lowly teams as, for example this season, Morton, Partick Thistle, Falkirk and Livingstone, who are obviously so much lesser teams than ICT ?

Because each club would have different ideas on which to cherry pick and so a single proposal that got most of what was needed would have got part way there and made it easier to get the rest if it was really needed later.

 

And of course the difference in class and ability between SPL teams and the current SFL1 is so great that they no top 4 SFL1 team could ever push a bottom 4 SPL team to need a 3 goal comeback and extra time in a national cup semi-fin... oh wait.

 

But it keeps getting said that is what the fans want, but you are also saying you don't want to play the top 4 of the SFL.

So where do the extra 4 teams for the top league come from ?

Why is it abhorrent to have the possibility of playing the 12th to 16th top teams under 12-12 to 8-8-8, but brilliant to have the guarantee of playing those exact same teams under a 16 team top league ?

For what it's worth I agree that a 16/18 team top league with extra playoffs and possibly an extended League Cup that gives back the extra home games would be a goal to get towards. I also know it cannot be done overnight and to get there we need to show that it is the way. IMNSHO, the proposal as was gave that chance to start the move.

 

I am saying what is the point in paying SPL/top league/whatever it would be called prices for a season ticket when you have no idea of the opposition? I am a student based in the central belt. I attend many away games, but I can't afford to travel as far to go to all the home games, therefore, I pick the best ones (games v. County, Celtic etc). I would be less likely to bother coming back for a game against Falkirk for example (who we have a horrendous record against anyway!)

I understand that most clubs would have different ideas. However, if the whole 11-1 thing had been changed to 9-3 for ALL aspects, not just league structure as the St Mirren statement says, or well before all this if Aberdeen hadn't been so stupid, then the chances are things such as playoffs and financial redistribution WOULD get passed through.

As pointed out by cal234ey again, it doesn't matter whether the team 4th in the 1st division is better than the team 10th in the SPL/top league. They are not an SPL/top league club on merit: that is something they would gain through promotion, through consistency throughout the season.

IF the 16 team league were to ever come about (and that's a huge if), then obviously the top 4 of SFL1 would be the teams to fill it. Why would they not???? In a 16 team league they would be top-league teams. Clubs would know the teams they would play against that season and would be able to market their season tickets accordingly. The issue for me is not about the difference (if any) in the standard of teams between the divisions, it's that the first part of the season in the 12-12-18 structure seems to effectively being written off for the middle 8. What would be the point in building up say a 20 point lead over the team in 12th place, just to see it wiped out?

I agree that the 16/18 team league is an appealing idea, but as you say, there would need to be a lot of work on that idea to make up lost revenue, and to get clubs to vote for it. I think had they offered the changes of financial redistribution, playoffs, pyramid system, one league body, but keeping the current league set-up (with the view to the structure being changed in a few years if a better structure was devised) then they might have had success.

 

Stewart Milne hasn't got a leg to stand on. It was him and his club that stopped the 11-1 majority vote from being changed earlier in the season. Ironically enough, if he had voted for it then, league reconstruction would have been passed through today.

 

Despite the many good parts of the plan (redistribution of money, playoffs, pyramid structure) the abomination of the planned splits, especially the middle 8, was ridiculous. How can you expect clubs to be able to sell season tickets at the start of the year not knowing what mini-league they would be in. Here you go guys, get your season tickets, we might have another game against Celtic, we might have one against Morton. Who knows!

What like it has been for the last 15 years ?

 

For the likes of Dundee this year, who knew they weren't going to make the top 8, they could have sat back, made sure they avoided suspensions, injuries etc and basically only turn up for the last part of the season. And the likes of Ross County this year wouldn't have made the top 8 and look where they are now! And it was a farce that if the whole thing DID get voted through and it turned out to be a complete disaster, nothing could be changed for 3 years.

Who said it couldn't be changed for 3 years ? Who ever told you that was wrong. What was in the original proposal was that any structure changes within 3 years needed a larger majority than most other changes. If everyone wanted to change after the first year it could be done.

From the reports, even that was removed and changes to structure would be on the same majority as everything else so the single sticking point that St Mirren gave as the reason for saying no was removed and they still said no.

 

Personally I think we should retain the current league structure but introduce the good ideas: redistribution of money, playoffs, the pyramid structure, one governing body, and the 9-3 voting majority. The current split has generated plenty of excitement over the years. Granted, the last 5 games can be meaningless if you are in the bottom half and have already secured survival, but think of the excitement of not knowing who would make the top 6 in the previous 33 games before it.

But to get the good points above that would help the lower end, there had to be compromise from the higher end, as they would lose out. You were never going to get the money redistribution without there being something in it for those giving up the biggest share of money. So you couldn't just cherry pick what you like as not everyone would cherry pick the same things and so there would have been no chance of getting what you want.

 

Hopefully now this means Doncaster will be resigning. I will personally drive him and Regan back to wherever the hell they came from.

And will you take Stuart Gilmour with them ? The St Mirren vote seems to me to have been about them being convinced they would have been in the middle 8 nearly every season, and then losing out on potential home games with the big teams, Celtic, ICT etc. Thing is if that is their normal position then they likely miss out on that game anyway, and if we went with a 16 team league, once home and away, then they definitely miss it.

Yes 12-12-18 is not perfect, but there is no perfect solution for everyone. I posted some thoughts on a possible format last It gave a top 16 with playoffs at top and bottom, and although some here liked some of it, there were some points that probably would never be agreed on by enough teams.

This was a chance to get the bits that most fans want, fairer distribution of money, playoffs, pyramid system, with a compromise on how we got there and making it easier to tweak later if it wasn't working. It seems to me some teams, and people, couldn't see that we needed to take a little pain in the short term, to make it better long term.

 

1. Well for the last however many years, at least teams have been able to sell season tickets on the basis that they WILL be playing SPL teams after the split, and as cal234ey said, it is for a much smaller portion of the season.

2. I don't see why we couldn't cherry pick. If all the chairmen, like Stewart Milne, are coming out and giving it the whole "for the good of the Scottish game" then they don't need any more of an incentive for redistribution of money. I don't see the problem with having a vote for each individual element. Playoffs. Pyramid. Money redistribution. Etc. The fact that the clubs were effectively being blackmailed into accepting the whole thing or nothing is my major gripe. As County said, 80% of the proposals were good. 

3. I am thankful that Gilmour voted against it, with McGregor. I only wish our chairman had also voted against it. St Mirren know that they would miss out on the "big games" against Celtic and whoever else, as you say, but they DO KNOW they will be playing an SPL team, not the team coming 4th in the 1st Division.

4. A 16 team league will never be brought in. It's not financially viable. Teams would end up having much fewer home games and they would never vote for it.

Yesssssss! Well done boys.

However, this shut up shop at the end is not good for the blood pressure!

How many defenders do we now have on the pitch?!

Yaaaaaass!!!! Well done lads.

That full-time whistle seemed to take an age to come today.

Ya dancer!!!! And from the BBC's live text it seems like Hibs have started to come to life.

We are also the only team throughout the season to not concede 3 or more goals to Rangers .

Neil Lennon's aftermatch interview was ridiculous. He reckons that everyone at Celtic FC has acted with total dignity this year

Don't you just love seeing our team put a spanner in the works at both ends of the table!

Surely that article can't be true?!?! That leaves us with Tokely as the only centre back! I would definitely have offered Hogg a deal, but maybe he doesn't want to sign for us and has options elsewhere.

This is more of an exodus than when we were relegated.

To be fair, I think "buried at sea" can be interpreted as "tossed over the side of the boat".

Butcher better be absolutely certain of keeping Hogg, or finding a new centre back from somewhere, as with Munro being told he can leave and Innes leaving (not that I was the biggest fan of him anyway), we only definitely have Tokely. I would still have considered Munro a good squad player as cover to Hogg and Tokely - just look at how many injuries and suspensions we have had in our back line this year.

A very sad day indeed which is definitely the end of an era. I can only wish the departing players good luck wherever they go, and I hope Butcher has new players lined up.

Very poor decision in my opinion, unless Butcher has a replacement lined up. Duff certainly isn't as good as Russell Duncan. It's no coincidence that our run to the First Division title began just after Russell had been put back in the starting line-up and I always thought we had a bit more grit and determination when he was in the team.

I agree that we have survived before by selling/releasing players and signing new ones, but with the state of the game right now, it won't be as easy to find replacements.

But good luck to Russell Duncan, wherever he ends up. He has been a fantastic servant to the club. Am I right in thinking that he is due a testimonial?

Richie Foran - stomach injury - training or match - not sure

Assault by Lee McCulloch at Ibrox

A draw would probably have been a fair result. Both teams weren't exactly great, not many clear cut chances, pretty poor game.

Odhiambo had the touch of an elephant, Rooney was isolated on his own a lot of the time and was left to run after long balls. If he did somehow manage to get to them, there was nobody in sight to help him. Bizarre decision to take him off - I would have gone with two up front as we were one goal down so where was the harm in going for it? Some baffling decisions by the referee but that doesn't meant we would have won if he had made the correct decisions.

Gillet looked good when he came on. Since both he and Shinnie have been out, we have really been lacking a left back. Munro hasn't been bad in that position, he just doesn't offer us as much going forward as these two do.

I really think that we should be playing with two up front. We played much better in the games where we moved Foran up top with Rooney. We are chasing a place in the Top 6, we need to go out and try to win games. Since this is not happening with our current tactics, and has not been happening for quite some time, it's time to try something else.

Ryan Esson, definitely. As has already been said, both Brown and Calder were very good keepers in their own right, but Esson edges it for me. He generally has very good command of his penalty box and is a fantastic shot stopper and communicator. Not to mention his penalty heroics.

Brown was a great shot stopper too, but his kicking was a bit suspect at times and he was absolutely woeful at penalties. Did he ever even save one? It is a little bit harder to compare Esson and Calder due to the difference in leagues that they have played in.

In 2000, after the game initially being postponed, we beat Celtic 3-1 at Parkhead before we were then drawn against Aberdeen. In the same round that we beat Celtic, they had to go to a replay to beat St Mirren 2-0 after drawing the first game 1-1.

Could be an omen, and if so, hopefully we go one better than in 2000 and beat Aberdeen in the next round!

Well done to Terry for speaking his mind and saying exactly what the majority of fans in the country are saying. It will be interesting to hear what Doncaster has to say this afternoon.

Every chairman needs to take a long hard look at themselves before they make the wrong decision, while ours just needs to stick to his guns. Stephen Thompson has gone worryingly quiet the last few days considering how outspoken and against a 10-team league he was.

I hope more managers come out with their opinions as I'm sure they will be along the same lines of TB's views. If TB gets punished for this, it's ridiculous. He should be applauded for speaking out against the idiots at the top. All hail King Terry.

Fantastic result!

As has already been said, the treatment of our fans by the stewards yesterday was shocking, but that can't overshadow the result. We played some great football at times and I thought everyone on the team had a superb game, from Esson right the way through to Rooney. A draw was the least we deserved. I didn't expect Lennon to take a draw or defeat with grace so I can't say I'm overly surprised with his claim that we offered no threat! It would be very interesting to see possession stats, as at times Celtic were the team playing on the counter attack and with our midfield running the show.

Excellent result to make us undefeated on the road for a calendar year, and perfect timing at the Stadium of Conspiracy. Chew on that, Lennon and Reid.

Oh, and that Majstorovic is a horrible defender. He made Djebi-Zadi look comfortable on the ball.

I dread to think what formation he will line up against Spain with.

Last night wasn't a very good performance. Ok, I can understand he was wanting to play for a draw, but all we did was lump the ball up the park where we had nobody, and completely miss out all the men we had in midfield. It was just inviting the Czechs to have a go every time. We looked (marginally) better when Miller and Iwelumo came on, but it was far too late in the game by then.

For me, beating Clyde 2-1 down at Broadwood was a rollercoaster of emotions and was effectively the day we won the First Division first time round (although not mathematically). I remember David Bingham keeping the ball in the corner for about 5 minutes, trying to run the clock down. We had a great crowd down that day too and the reactions and celebrations at the end of the game were brilliant.

Yeah but a hammering, it is disgraceful and his team shape was AMATEURISH. If i am being honest, i wanted a result tonight and St Mirren, no matter who played. If we lose or draw on Sat then expect more from me on wanting him (Butcher) out. As i already said somewhere (facebook, i think), Brewster got sacked for 1 win out of 7, Butcher has 1 win in 4 which means that our board would be saying Tel has 3 games to save his job, i say he has 1 to save his job because a loss to Saints and results going against us would put us BOTTOM.

Yes, but Brewster got sacked for 1 win out of 7 in the middle/end of January when we were bottom of the league. Butcher has 1 win in 4, having only just taken us back into the SPL and we have a few players who have not experienced SPL football. Our priority has to be the league this year and yes, getting humped 6-0 wasn't what we wanted, but it was a cup game, we have a lot of injuries to key players and Butcher probably didn't want any more. However, Cox could now be a doubt for the St Mirren game after receiving a heavy challenge and that is the proof of Butcher's logic right there.

St Mirren. After our unbeaten run in the First, I think we equalled our longest ever unbeaten run of 21 games (which we first achieved in the Third Division)???

If we could draw or win on the opening day we would beat that, so St Mirren would be the easiest game for us in my opinion.

Aye, well done to Adam. I would have been absolutely gutted if Griffiths had got it as the media seem to love him and have given him a lot of hype.

Very well deserved and I look forward to another 20-odd goals next season.