gordieict

Tree...I've asked the same thing on here a couple of times now and was saddened by the lack of positive responses.

It would also help if the fans had an idea of what the worst case scenario would be with no Newco, at the moment most off us have no idea what the impact would be or how much the club would have to additionally raise to cover that loss.

No I dont think they are being greedy, in any profession workers will try to get the maximium rewards for their efforts and if clubs are prepared to pay it who can blame the players

yes I am sure you are right.

It looks like the vote in going towards a no to the Newco from the other clubs. Wouldn't it be great if the Newco acted with a little bit of dignity for once and withdrew their application to the SPL and applied to Division 3 and let Scottish Football move forward.

I disagree this is not about business, the Directors of the club aslo have a duty to ensure financial stabilty for the fans and shareholders. If given the choice no ICT or no Newco would you vote against the newco and punish ICT who have done nothing wrong?

I welcome Mr Cameron meeting with the supporters trust, I wonder if it would be possible for the club to give the fans a breakdown of what impact losing the Newco would be to ICT, perhaps fans would understand the sitaution more then.

When talking about sporting integrity ICT have done nothing wrong, the SPL is flawed and Rangers cheated, my interest is that ICT survive and hopefully Scottish football with have learned a lesson from this whole sorry mess.

I agree its a no to the Newco but do appreciatte that the club is in a difficult position as they have a difficult enough job to balance the books as it is. I am not aware what the full financial implications are of saying no to the newco are, could they put ICT and other clubs to the wall? Very difficult.

So long as the board has faith then so do I

The board had faith in Brewster until it was to late Alex

Gordie, it kinda depends on what "slant" you want to put on the finances.

Accounts for the last few years have indicated that the business has an average operating shortfall of about £250,000 per year and the situation was worsened by the near £1 Million that relegation cost us which resulted in us selling off the last of the family silver.

That's the not so good side. The slightly better side is that we have no real debt...partly because nobody is stupid enough to give us any...and we are scraping by and surviving.

With the loss of Dunfermline then we probably do have one of the tightest/smallest budgets in the SPL. Ross C*unty will likely end up being smaller, but they will have people willing to throw a few quid at it for a couple of years (as we did) which will likely give them more spends than us for now.

In terms of the squad situation...our situation is no doubt one creating due to the financial situation as we can only offer wages and deals that will appeal to the kind of players we're getting in and in order to stretch the budget as far as we can then that needs bolstering with loan players. There's a common (and mostly true) conception that loan players have part of their wages met by the club they go on loan to, but I believe some of our loan signings may have cost us next to nothing because other Managers and players themselves have seen the value in coming here to train under Butcher and get some game time....which is what I was getting at in regards to "would other Managers have that pull"....so I can't personally apportion the situation to bad management and truly do worry what like things would be under a different manager.

It's not nice and it's far from ideal, but it is what it is and the only real alternative is probably to have a squad which contains part-time players!!!

I also think our situation this season has been made to look worse because we had more loan players than planned due to injury and suspensions....so we effectively had more "leave" (go home) at the end of the season than might otherwise have been the case.

In terms of "local signings", we lost our way with that a bit during our relegation season when we were forced to cut back and it will take a year or two yet to fully recover (assuming we can maintain SPL status) so I expect that situation to improve again in time.

Cheers for the reply....worrying times indeed definetly not easy for Butcher. Bascially the 250k Muirfiled investment just covered our loss then.

Doofer, I wouldn't class you as one of those who seem to get more of a kick out of beating up on the club than they do from supporting it and perhaps should have made it clear that the second part of my post was not aimed at yourself, just a follow on to my thoughts on the content of this (and other threads of a similar nature).

I do understand and share the frustration and concern, I just don't necessarily agree with some people's reasoning.

ICT is where it is both financially and in terms of the squad. I don't like some of the stuff that happened to put us here and believe things could have been very different....but que sera. It's not all happened in the last couple of seasons either and I would argue that much of the damage had been done long before that and if not for some of the things done in the last few years (not all of them nice, but mostly necessary) then things could be a hell of a lot worse.

We have a choice as fans, we can keep digging up everything that has gone before to use as a stick to beat down current efforts or we can accept we are where we are and turn our efforts to improving things for the future.

In regards to Butcher....it doesn't matter who the manager was, at some point we were going to lose the last of the long standing players and club legends. Do people really think it would be any different under anyone else? We are in a situation where....like it or not....the club can only survive and compete by bringing in players with potential as opposed to proven and/or seasoned professionals of the quality some seem to expect and Butcher is better placed than any Manager we've previously had, or could reasonably expect to get, to do that.

We're never going to be producing 6 or 7 local lads who are good enough year on year to sustain what we had in the past....in many ways we are the victim of our own success in that regard because whilst we were able to bring guys like Munro, Tokely etc through the ranks along with and have them develop side by side with the club, we now have to be producing lads who can step up to the SPL pretty quickly as we have neither the time nor resources to keep them on the books year on year in the hope they make it.

We've just had our most disappointing season ever and whilst I accept that Butcher didn't always play his cards in the best manner possible, it wasn't helped by fate and circumstance pulling the aces from his hand at every turn. IMO, the fact we survived and escaped relegation despite all that is worthy of credit in itself.

If some people really think the answer is to sack the management, then I ask who we are going to replace them with and what they expect a new manager to do within the setup we have that is not being done right now. Yeah, it's sad to see Tokely leaving, just as it was sad to see Munro, Duncan, McBain, Wilson, Wyness, and dozens of other leave before them....that's football and despite the doom and gloom stories which are spouted every time it happens we are still here.

Same goes with Managers....not everyone likes Butcher, but not everyone has liked any of our previous managers and nor will the all like any future managers. That's fine, but not liking someone doesn't give you free rein to invest stuff and dish out abuse. Again, I'm not getting at you, but some of the stuff that's been posted on this forum lately in that regard has been nothing short of disgusting and it serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent here, but as with a few of the other threads and trends on here just now, some people do need to look at the bigger picture, appreciate that we have no right to anything and are in a financial position which means we need to operate in a way which is a bit out of the normally accepted/expected parameters. It might not be the most pleasant, certainly at times like this when we are all wondering/worrying about what next season will bring.

At the end of the day we each have a choice....we accept our lot are work together to improve it, or we start throwing around the insults and abuse and add to an already difficult situation!!!! That's not to say we can't criticise or comment, but it needs to be done in a constructive fashion.

There is something I am not understanding and that is down to my lack of knowledge of the clubs finances so this is not a criticism but a question. Are we worse of than every other SPL club at present (rangers aside)and if not why are we the only side without half a squad at present, is that really bad finances or bad management?

Nice one hopefully they will both be playing like a couple of donkeys next season

Oh, great... yet another boring and negative thread.

That's the beauty of forums people get to post their thoughts even if they don't meet your expectations. Here's a thought for you if you don't like someone's thread rather than just be rude why don't you ignore it. Or will we just fill the forum with Butcher is wonderful threads to keep you happy?

My biggest worry for next season is our own support....or a small but vocal section of them who are more present on these forums than they appear to be at games. Some seem unwilling/unable to get beyond Munro having being moved on and are caught in the mindset that the Tokely scenario is exactly the same. No appreciation for the fact that he WAS offered a contract and making assumption that it was a contract designed to make him leave. Those people seem so locked in to that negative mindset that you can be sure they will be practically wishing failure on the team (again) this season so they can deliver a stream of "told you so's"....as if their opinions being vindicated in such a manner is more important than the clubs success.

I hope that people can achieve a bit of perspective, snap out of it and get fully behind the team before the start of the season.

To quote Thomas Jefferson, "dissension is the greatest form of patriotism" or in this case supporting you're football team! Please get the impression, I and others go to games and don't get behind the team. I just can't at this time though say I like where the club is heading and the road being taken by the current management team is what's to blame.

I think the fans are almost as low than during the Brewster second term. I dont think that is all down to the player departures but also the atrocious football that was served up last term. I am sure that if there is a repeat of this early in the season the unrest will get much stronger. A lot have lost faith in Butcher, and I include myself in that , hopefully I am wrong. And of course you are right Caley D it's time to get fully behind the team for next season

If he scores and celebrates il boo him. If he doesnt il maintain some respect for him.

But can't say I'm happy with him.

Why shouldn't he celebrate scoring a goal for the team that pays his wages?

to show abit of respect to the fans the supported him for 16 years of his career perhaps

So no players should celebrate scoring against their former teams? (I guess the same should apply to Munro too) Depends what you regard as celebrating, a smile, a hug from teammates? I very much doubt he'd go running up to the ICT fans jumping for joy. Perhaps just a wee wave to Butcher.

Also you say you are not happy with him? I presume for moving to County, would you have been happy to help cover his mortgage, or costs for moving house instead perhaps?

not the fact he went to county, the fact he ran to the papers the instant he seen his offer.

i dont think thats the right way to go about it, a quiet word with butcher, and a goodbye in the papers, or through a club website, or something.would have surficed. the way he went to about every paper in the land and said he wasnt happy with the club, the manager etc. its not the right way to leave after 16 years.

i can understand why at our level if hes offered something better over the bridge then i have no problem with him leaving for that but its the manor that frustrates me.

If he scores and celebrates il boo him. If he doesnt il maintain some respect for him.

But can't say I'm happy with him.

Why shouldn't he celebrate scoring a goal for the team that pays his wages?

to show abit of respect to the fans the supported him for 16 years of his career perhaps

So no players should celebrate scoring against their former teams? (I guess the same should apply to Munro too) Depends what you regard as celebrating, a smile, a hug from teammates? I very much doubt he'd go running up to the ICT fans jumping for joy. Perhaps just a wee wave to Butcher.

Also you say you are not happy with him? I presume for moving to County, would you have been happy to help cover his mortgage, or costs for moving house instead perhaps?

not the fact he went to county, the fact he ran to the papers the instant he seen his offer.

i dont think thats the right way to go about it, a quiet word with butcher, and a goodbye in the papers, or through a club website, or something.would have surficed. the way he went to about every paper in the land and said he wasnt happy with the club, the manager etc. its not the right way to leave after 16 years.

i can understand why at our level if hes offered something better over the bridge then i have no problem with him leaving for that but its the manor that frustrates me.

The first time I have ever seen you post anything remotely negative regarding anything ICT and it's against the clubs biggest legend.

I would guess that even the most happy of clappers are secretly panicking at the moment, there is time though, next few weeks are crucial and we need some quality in sharpish

Taking the Tokely situation aside, nothing can be done about that, I fail to see how anyone can fail to be worried about next season. We have half a squad at present and a manager who had us playing some off the worst football in our history last season. Ask yourselves this whose squad would you rather at present ours or County's?

OK so that's the squad/back up player signed. Who are we chasing to be the first choice?

How do you know he is not a first choice player? have you ever seen him play? give him a chance he hasn;t even played a game yet

Whatever our feelings on Tokleys departure we have to get over it and move on, he's a County player now.

Onwards and upwards (hopefully)

good luck to him and hope he is a huge success.

Question now is...........Is Adams building a team to challenge in the SPL or is he building a team for going back to Div 1?

I think to stay in the SPL but is looking for players with a bit of experience there

Oh well no huge surprise there then.

Going to be a bit controversial here and say the I understand giving the refs a pay rise, who the heck would want ot do that job. I agree it should be performance related but how many, myself included say I need to see the replay before I can comment after a difficult desision, the ref doesnt have that luxury. The way players and managers are to refs these days they need to be well rewarded or nobody will do it.

Naïve!? More like realistic.

These conspiracy theories wouldn't be doing the rounds had Munro not been released last season.

3 legends leave in 2 seasons and all of a sudden it's doom and gloom.

If Rossco was so concerned with money and his financial future, he would have taken the money move to Turkey 2 seasons ago.

We don't know if it was a standard pay that was offered, standard pay with performance based bonuses, or a wage that reflected the part he was perhaps going to play next year (eg mostly substitute). We'll never hear how much the offer was much the same as we'll probably never get a real story as to why RD and GM left. End of the day, he turned down whatever was on the table. There's no denying that, no matter the theory

There is a big difference in staying loyal and not going to Turkey than staying and for a lot less money than on previously, anyway no point in arguing about it you have bought the Butcher spin and will come out with excuses for him if he takes the team down. If he improves the team and keeps us up I will be delighted to be wrong and will happily eat humble pie. I am afraid my confidence in the man has gone.

One thing I am fairly certain of is that if had been Brewster doing this the same fans defending Butcher would be up in arms.

People, long standing players eventually become too old to be competitive in the top division.

Yes Alex they do but handle it in the right fashion, tell him at end of last season let him now out gracefully, and replace him with someone better, are you convinced Butcher will replace him with better

'Such circumstances' being what? HE turned down a contract offer.

I'd no doubt think about this issue entirely differenyly if it was handled in the same manner in which Dennis Wyness left the last time. IE with the offer being retracted when the player had agreed to sign. THAT was a shocking way to treat a legend!

I can't see how him being offered a contract, regardless of how much of a cut in wage or whatever, can be deemed mis-treatment.

The mere fact he was offered an extention would suggest he was wanted in some capacity. unfortunately now that he's stated his intent in the press and on social media to not want to sign, he's burning as many bridges toward the club as the club may be towards him

Oh don't be so naive you can structure an offer so it will be turned down, Tokely alluded to the fact this was what happened himself. If you were in a job for 16 years and your employer offered you a new contract with half your wage would you feel that was fair.