Kirishima

BBC website put the 25 pt penalty on Dundee a couple of days ago and now have taken it away again. As a result it's now Ross county in play-off relegation instead of Dundee. I'm torn...

Just media rumours at this stage.

Seems to have got the media's attention due to famous names associated with the case. One famous person leaving the kid, another famous person calling the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12145642

Not a parent myself, but I wouldn't think I'd leave a baby in a car, especially if both parents are about and can go shopping. Heard one person say Charlie was nipping out of Costco now and again to check - which is hardly the point. The kid was probably sleeping you'd think, but Costco must have been too much of a pull for one to stay behind.

2009/10/11 Timeline

• 
  
  
• Feb 2009: McLeish appointed as Chair of Scottish Football Review
  
• Mar 2009: 12 SPL clubs' officials meet to discuss SPL2
  
• May 2009: Scottish Football Review launched
  
• Apr 22nd 2010: Supporters Direct says fans want teams to play each other twice only
  
• Apr 23rd: First-part of Henry McLeish's report
  
• Nov 1st: 6-club Steering group meet to revamp SPL. Anger from other 6 SPL clubs of their exclusion
  
• Dec 16th: Second-part of Henry McLeish's report. 10 team-league idea with SPL2
  
• Dec 16th: Supporters Survey shows huge opposition to a 10-team league
  
• Dec 20th: Meeting of all SPL clubs cancelled due to weather
  
• Dec 24th: Excluded clubs meet with Doncaster
  
• Jan 4th 2011: Re-scheduled meeting happens, SPL confident 10-team league idea will be passed
  
• Jan 5th: Fans flood forums against 10-team SPL, Chairmen refute that it's a done deal
  
• Jan 8th: Jan 17th vote cancelled
  

This has been a farce, it's not in anyway been done right, the fans survey was ignored, 6 clubs were excluded from talks, then the SPL say it's all about TV money and buying in players, yet in the middle of last year, 14 teams looked most likely.

I don't think Doncaster and Topping have done anything but lose any respect they had from the fans. It's been a mess.

I can confirm the The Supporters Trust have been consulted by Neil Doncaster, we were invited to Hampden or to discuss by phone. Our Chairman, Peter Murphy, spoke to Neil Doncaster on Thursday afternoon and his thoughts can be found in the local press as well as the official ICT site and the Supporters Trust website at Supporters Trust Website where you will also find information on our upcoming AGM.

You will probably have heard of Supporters Direct as they carried out a survey of fans opinions and presented them to the SPL. Supporters Direct are the governing body for all Supporters Trusts around the Country and have earned the respect of the governing bodies as the voice of the fans via the individual Trusts.

Thanks for the info. Is there anything to report about what was discussed about on Thursday? Were the Supporters Trust able to go to Hampden? I appreciate there has been some vague attempt by the SPL to court opinion, but the survey by Supporters Direct has not been part of the process, as the SPL have not cited it, considered it, and the steering group is made up of 6 chairmen from SPL clubs.

Nothing about this process has been about the fans, save for some token gestures that were just for show. They have responded to the fans wishes by dismissing them out of hand, and quite condescendingly too, "No one else has put any alternatives up. I think those who want 16 teams in the top flight are deluding themselves." (Doncaster)

I would hope that Doncasters desperate last-minute PR stunts are recognised for whaat they are, lip-service.

Doncaster is now meeting with fans on what the Telegraph views as a "charm offensive."

I find it pretty transparent, that after saying it has taken 8 months of hard work to come up with a 10-team SPL idea it wasn't until 10 days before the vote, he is suddenly getting out there.

You had eight months to listen to the fans, but ever the politician, when the s*** hits the fan, shake some hands and nod your head. Can the Supporters Trust confirm when he will be in Inverness?

That's very true. And a point was made earlier that the Old Firm are the most marketable side to the SPL. That's a given. However, what the fans seem to want is a focus on playing without the negative, repetitive, avoid-relegation-at-all-costs football that would indoubtedly arrive with a 10-team league.

All we hear is TV money, TV money, but that's not what Scottish football should be relying on. Clubs should be focussing on a fresh, exciting, youthful league. What pride there is in seeing young players flourish, perform, grow and eventually progress to their and their clubs benefit. We see Bosnian players being sold for tens of millions along with Czech, French, Swedish, Danish, etc etc, and that is because they have given teams the chance to play young players and then reap the rewards. Ajax have often taken a three-year hiatus from the title challenge while playing youth in the knowledge that it will come.

There are plenty leagues in similar countries to Scotland that do have teams that dominate, but if a bigger league happened we'd see a lot more youngsters flourish. Let's stop thinking TV money, which is a small fraction of income and very variable, is the be all and end all. Let's cut the debt, cut our cloth, and push scottish youngsters to the forefront. That's what is wanted by the customer base as opposed to importing has-beens which is a debt-carrot and a hugely short-sighted and pessimistic view of potential.

Caley D makes a very valid point in answer to JoeDi Maggio. "I'd love to see where they came up with those sums"

I don't have financial projections for a 16-team league but neither do the SPL for a 10-team league. They are assuming they would get a better TV deal, and they think that fans will like the excitement of 6 teams in the relegation zone all season. They say fans want players from abroad getting high wages. Have you heard them answer these very basic questions?

• 
  
  
• Where is their fan survey?
  
• Where is their chairman and experts survey?
  
• What supposed better TV deal has been discussed with Sky Sports or similar?
  
• We had a 10-team SPL before, it didnt work, so why do it again?
  
• Experts have said youth will suffer with a 10-team league.
  
• How does this address the vital need for a winter break asked for by managers?
  
• Where are the figures backing up their claims?
  
• What financial deal is there for SPL2 teams?
  
• Where are their figures for a 12, 14, 16-team league?
  
• If its purpose is to import/buy (Topping) "highly paid players" (Milne) how does this address the crippling debts of clubs?
  
  

We are being told what is good for us without being shown why. It's like a company trying to sell you an internet package but refusing to tell you how much it will cost, how long it will be for, who it is with and what speed it will be.

If 11 clubs go for a 10-team SPL the fans will not go with them. I hope people in England enjoy watching old Swedish wingers in half-empty cowshed stadiums.

How would a bigger league give teams leeway to reduce ticket prices? It wouldn't at all! 16 team league, as has been said clubs would be losing about ?1m. We would have 8 fewer games than we do now so if anything clubs would have to slash budgets which affects the level of player that can be brought in.

Having 20 meaningless games a season for some teams is not the way forward unless you want to kill Scottish football alltogether.

So what do you propose? What do you think is the best system? And why? I say 16 is best because it will alow us to re-build broken, debt-ridden teams, by bringing them in from the cold, that is, if we get people in place that also want to save Scottish football. It will also allow teams to forego buying in over-paid imports, and play youth, which are free, and a source of revenue, far greater than TV money, and a lot more stable. Tackling debt, by supporting clubs, by taking away the fear of oblivion, and creating a real effort-based all-leavel youth programme. Ideas such as regional youth leagues, drafts, etc., have all been discussed here. Splits and play-offs to combat reduction in games/competitiveness have also been discussed.

What are your alternatives? Don't be like the SPL and just say no. It's not drugs we're selling...

The second option. Who knows? But surely it can't be any worse than this!!!

That's the very thing, Sorted. Doncaster has said "No one else has put any alternatives up. I think those who want 16 teams in the top flight are deluding themselves."

There are no alternatives because they've only dreamed up one idea. One fatally flawed idea. They keep banging on about TV, TV, TV and pushing one idea, when TV money is probably less than 20% of income now. How about looking after where 80% of the money comes from?? Football existed once debt free and could again. They want clubs to spend, spend, spend when the accountants are saying save, save, save.

I can absolutely understand the need for competitive games throughout. However, if our aim is to really improve Scottish football that means we must focus on creating something brand new, radical, amazing. This means detatching ourselves from the status quo and years of old. That is what the bigwigs are doing, looking to the past, a past which cannot be replicated (and thank god)

We need to support the smaller teams,not just ICT, but teams like Hamilton, St Mirren, Raith, and even Dundee!! They must be assisted in clearing their debt, having more access to funding, cutting costs, etc etc. It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

We need to rip up the rulebook and start again.

I would say this, have a look at Scotty's MLS post previously. These kind of ideas are what we want, instead we get boring old farts that have no background or grounding in the game, giving us words (but no evidence) as to what they imagine/think is best for the game.

All I want is the SPL to get out of their wee office and create a product based on the customer, and find ways to make it work. Not think up one hugely unpopular idea and then force it upon every club and fan without any discussion or consultation. If this 10-team SPL goes ahead, fans will just walk away. Hope they have enough TV money for that!

As to what CaleyD said, well, as the Daily Record said (God help us) it's up to us to make sure our Chairman knows what we want.

Jan 6th, Henry McLeish: "A smaller number of clubs receiving a higher share of income, which recognises the financial problems facing the game, is a very understandable road to go down.

"The fans are close to the game but not its finances. I acknowledge they want a bigger league but it would create serious financial difficulties.

"Everyone has a right to be heard and debate is good but we must be realistic and not pretend the financial nature of our game is going to change overnight."

They are the ones pretending it's going to change overnight! PricewaterHouseCoopers have said in their reports that cutting costs is the way forward. They're the financial experts. Or should we listen to a disgraced politician who resigned after sub-letting his free apartment paid by us. He had to pay back 36,000 quid. Why are we now being told what is good for the game by Topping, McLeish, Regan, Doncaster none of whom are fit to run anything?

They are making it up - they do not know. They've done no no consultation, and have offered only one idea by one man.

I think taking ideas from MLS is a good one, and the A-League, and Russia also have sensible ideas. Having some top foreign players is great, just not 11 mediocre ones.

The problem is, while we are all looking at things such as the MLS for inspiration, Topping Doncaster are making it up by themselves, with a little help from a failed politician/ex-football player.

They've come up with nothing, nada, that is remotely sensible, comprehansive, well thought through, representative or original. Just 2 men making it up by themselves. That's the danger the game faces now.

Who decides the future of the game? Surely not a handful of men that aren't experts?

Cruyff says stop spending money on players from abroad and invest in youth development.

The people wanting a league of 10 (a builder, a bookie manager, a solicitor) say give 10 teams more money to buy players from abroad.

Unfortunately, for Scottish Football, we have the wrong people making decisions. We need change, they need to leave. They've shown their stupidity, it's time they moved aside.

Is this the most united topic ever on Caleythistleonline?

The SPL?s strategy group, composed of six clubs ? Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibernian, Motherwell, Rangers and St Mirren.

From the very get go, by having half of the league making decisions, it was amateur night. And the idea they came up with is an insult. I'd wonder what is round the corner? I'm hopeful of 16 but it needs pushing from the fans. It absolutely would work if every club cut their cloth accordingly and gave up on this defeatist pathetic idea that we need to be like the f****** X-Factor of football bringing in names rather than producing our own stars.

It's clear that some people in high up places need to leave for real change to happen. Take a quick look at Topping and Doncaster. One has only ever woorked for one company and in a similar role for a year while the other bailed out of Norwich when they were demoted to League one...seemed to have done ok since!!

I think the most telling snippet is:

"Our initial impression was that the SPL Strategy Group was looking to choose between 12 and 14 clubs and it was a big surprise to us and others that they have come forward with a proposal to actually reduce the SPL to 10 clubs."

The words "hoodwink" and "impose" spring to mind. What awful behaviour from this mob. They don't deserve to be anywhere near the game.

Aberdeen and St Johnstone are for it

ICT, Hearts, Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock are aginst it.

I wonder where the rest will fall. It seems, from reading all the quotes carefully from those wanting the 10-team league, that the most important thing is to get more cash to buy player s in and pay them big wages. Seriously, it's all on BBC from Milne and Topping.

Is that really what we are up against? Such basic, idiotic, short-sighted, never-learn clowns?? The SPL nearly ruined teams by chasing off Sky Sports.

Anyway massive credit to George Fraser for doing the right thing, the only thing. Shame on Milne, Topping, Doncaster and Brown.

Thanks Charles. I'm relieved to see that Geoff Brown saying " I would like to think we have a consensus" was just words.

• 
  
  
• Ralph Topping's argument is based on bringing in players from outside Scotland.
  
• Stewart Milne has said they need money for "highly paid players."
  

It is this opinion of the game that is ruining it. Their idea of the SPL is full of highly paid players from anywhere but Scotland. That's also why Aberdeen and the majority of clubs are riddled by debt.

It seems we are seeing the true colours of Chairmen now. George Fraser has done ICT proud by standing for what is right.

Very interesting. As you said Scotty, this is a drive to increase the income of the clubs and SPL. But TV money at its peak was just 20%-30% of total income. It's well less now.

The SPL are telling chairman, here's an extra ?200k but in return you'll have to gamble on being relegated to the wilderness and you'll have to therefore spend to avoid that. Ralph Topping, Chairman of SPL, a man that only every had just one employer William Hill want the return of Tore Andre Flos, Laudrups, Suttons in the belief that Sky will be running back with cash-a-plenty.

PWC said the only way out of this crisis is to cut-costs. Stop paying exorbiant wages, groundshare, merge, sell and re-build, produce assets (players) to be sold. Hamilton got three seasons worth of TV money for one player, Hearts got 18 seasons worth. We have to let youth be played, and sold. That will only happen with a bigger league. There are markets out there to sell players to, but they're only interested in buying the Huttons, Wilsons, Gordons, McCarthys, i.e. young players that are playing week in week out and doing well. They'll do well given time and not fighting relegation every game they lose, to be replaced with Dutch Diddys.

I have e-mailed George Fraser, very politely and positively, to ask him to vote no. That's where the battle will be won or lost at this stage.

Thanks for the green dots!! In no way am i saying my idea is the best way, red dots are fine , but surely there are alternative ideas we should be mulling over in order to improve Scottish football. And therein lies the rub.

Fans: Improve Scottish football for the benefit of all, not for the few

SPL: Change Scottish football for the financial benefit of the elite clubs and the SPL.

Alex, I'm not sure, but I imagine an SPL & SPL2 set-up would see SPL teams get Sky Sports money, and SPL2 get BBC Alba money (i.e. scraps). 12th man makes a much better suggestion in a paragraph than McLeish did in one year. As Charles pointed out, Colt teams and a 10 team league is another way of saying "we only need a 10 team league to have the OF play each other 4 times (min), everyone buy foreign players and we get Sky back!!"

Almost all of the major clubs are tens of millions in debt.. That is going to catch up with clubs soon, and it won't be pretty The only way out of this is to do everything humanly possible to get them out of it by planning for it now.

The likes of Craig Gordon ?9m, Alan Hutton ?9m, Barry Ferguson ?6.5m, Duncan Ferguson ?4m, James McCarthy ?1.2m are the answer. That's why it's imperative to stop buying foreign players (which Topping has stated he wants), revolutionise youth football, and to have a 16 team league to allow teams breathing space to develop youth on-field without worrying about being relegated for doing so. If we can work out ways to help smaller teams to do likewise, pride, passion, and identity will return.

I really fear that the SPL juggernaut won't stop, so it's up to SPL fans to pressure their Chairman to vote NO to this. Time is running out to save the greedy few from destroying the sub-30 teams they care not for.

My last post was sarcastic. I'm totally against a league of 10 and everything the SPL have said. Lets look at other countries' leagues, with a similar population...how many teams?

Norway: 16

Slovakia: 12

Denmark: 12

Finland: 14

Croatia: 16

The whole idea of a 10 team league is is to deprive 2 teams of TV money. They have mentioned nothing about youth football, facilities, crippling club debt, ticket prices, investment, fans wishes, or anything remotely comprehensive. They messed up last time stupidly trying to hold SKY Sports to ransom, and nearly drove every club to the wall as a result, make no mistake, they don't have the good of the game in mind and aren't competent. It's a crime they are allowed to continue running/ruining the game.

"If you look at Scottish football, a 16-team league wouldn't work economically and it would have a knock-on effect in terms of the quality of players you can attract." (SPL chairman Ralph Topping)

"The cake gets much smaller and is cut into more slices," (SPL CEO Neil Doncaster re: 16/18 team league)

So the two most important things are 1) buying players in from outside Scotland and 2) having less teams sharing the money. That's the ticket!!

As SPL clubs meet to discuss the future set-up and that 88% of supporters are against the proposed (farcical imo) 10 team "revamp" what really could be done? 92% of fans feel they haven't been consulted properly either. So, rather than a discussion of how bad things are, what is everyones vision for a proper set-up and critique of others ideas put forward?

Regional Youth League

1. 
   
   
2. 14 regional teams (Ayrshire, Borders, Central Scotland, Dumfries+Galloway, Dunbartonshire+Argyll+Bute, Fife, Grampian, Glasgow, Highlands+Western Isles, Lanarkshire, Lothian, Orkney+Shetland, Renfrewshire, Tayside.
   
3. Players signed to SPL teams prohibited from entry
   
4. Ages 12-14, 14-16, 16-18 (three leagues)
   
5. Play each other once in summer (13 games, neutral venue, over one month, intensive training, 60 min matches)
   
6. Top four teams 16-18, play semi-final and final. Televised.
   
7. Run in conjuction with schools, councils, clubs
   
   

16-18 age group enter draft after summer league finishes, lowest ranking semi-pro ranking club in players region has first pick (think NFL)

Clubs pay fee for player (means tested)

Non-picks go to amateur league draft in region (free)

Naturally, 16 team SPL, home/away, one division of 14 (2-up/3-down), two pro-amateur divisions of 14 under on same level (i.e East/West or North/South of 12 with winners promoted, runners up play-off)

30 Professional teams/14 semi-professional/2 x 12 pro-amateur/amateur (?)

Professional teams pay tax (1% of gate, 1% of TV money, 1% of transfer fees received from outside Scotland, etc, etc to semi-professional teams and likewise for semi-pro to pro-amateur, Pro players pay 1% of wage)

• 
  
  
• Professional teams with between 3000 - 6000 support can register as community clubs and get exemptions on fees etc.
  
• Clubs in debt must reduce deficit by 5% per year
  
• Wages not exceeding 45% of turnover
  
• Maximum 3 non-EU players in starting squad
  
• Minimum 5 home-grown players (trained for 2 years 16-18 or signed through regional league) in squad
  

Only an Excuse was pitiful. Introducing the person you are about to be impersonating is cringeworthy, but necessary here as I only recognised a handful. There was very little distinction in Scottish accents, a feat beyond him it seems, and the jokes were bland and as cutting as a hot knife through a brick. It needs new faces, new writers, and a lot lot more wit, cahoonies, and originality.

I imagine this is not a new thought in DFS's mind. However, it may alert certain people/start the ball rolling. Why not be proactive? People tend to come when they feel wanted. Urs Schwarzenbach, of Ben Alder Estate, Inverness-shire has over ?800 million apparently. Also owns a polo team. Interest in owning sporting teams...

Seriously though, I do think that Inverness may have an advantage over other clubs in attracting a potential backer. The club is debt free by and large, a major stumbling block for others, its location in the millionaire's playground (hunting estate territory, owners of tetra pak and above and Mr Trump) and the "free" price tag...