Renegade

Controlled perhaps.

That diagrams the best I could find unfortunately.

I wouldn't say myself that I believe every little thing that shows that 9/11 was not an inside job as I do have unanswered questions myself, but I can't see it being an inside job myself.

Okay I accept that someone saw the building buckle, how did the passport survive and why do those beams look as if they were cut instead of bent?

I had a gander for the passport thing and the best I could find was this:

Crash-Proof Passport

Hijacker's Passport and a Landing Gear Fragment Alone Survive Fiery Crash

This illustration from Chapter 1 of FEMA's report shows what few pieces of aircraft debris passed entirely through the Towers. A charred fragment of landing gear on the intersection of West and Rector streets was the only piece they traced to Flight 11.

According to ABC News and the Associated Press, the passport of hijacker Satam Al Suqami was found a few blocks from the WTC. ^{1 2} The Guardian was skeptical: "the idea that Atta's passport had escaped from that inferno unsinged [tests] the credulity of the staunchest supporter of the FBI's crackdown on terrorism." ³ Note the passport did not belong to Atta, as is commonly claimed.

Satam Al Suqami was supposedly on Flight 11, the plane that hit the North Tower. In that collision, the building's core absorbed almost the entire airplane, which hit the northeast wall nearly dead center.

I'll just ignore the contolly bit.

http://www.representativepress.org/BowingD...xplosives2.html

Building that are controlly demolished don't buckle.

It's often interesting that conspiracy theorists, will never give up no matter what evidence you throw at them.

The key word is melt. The only people who say that the beams melted are the conspiracy folks. They were really just weakened, thus the building collapsed.

No McGuire in the line-up again. Good.

"Melted" Steel

CLAIM: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800? to 1500?F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750?F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength--and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100?F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800? it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832?F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

Simple logic really.

Goallo Goallo

I've watched loads of Alex Jones on conspiracy programmes on TV and looked him up on the net and some of what he says may be true, but he's convinced of things like that 9/11 was an inside job. Would you like me to start there?

Are conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones and David Icke nuts, or are they on the right lines. Alex Jones of course believes in some sort underground society that is gonna take over the world at some point and David Icke believes that the Queen and George Bush are reptile shapeshifting, aliens from space that enjoy drinking blood! Nutters, you couldn't make some of their garbage up.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2233878.ece

Don't surprise me really. Obviously not the sharpest tools in the toolshed.

Flower of Scotland, Garbage. Caledonia, cringewrothy

What about "Hey Hey My My" by Neil Young but insert Caley Thistle into the lines.

Hey hey, my my

Caley Thistle can never die

There's more to the picture

Than meets the eye.

Hey hey, my my.

Out of the blue and into the red

You pay for this, but they'll strike you dead

And once you're gone, you can't come back ahead

When you're out of the blue and into the red.

The king is gone but he's not forgotten

Is this the story of johnny rotten?

It's better to burn out 'cause rust never sleeps

The king is gone but he's not forgotten.

Hey hey, my my

Caley Thistle can never die

There's more to the picture

Than meets the eye.

WTF has johnny rotten got to do with football and who is the king thats gone but not forgotten ?

I couldn't think of anything to go with that bit but the "king" is supposed to be Elvis Pressley. Elvis had just died when this came out and he is "not forgotten", John Lydon on the other was just making it big at this point.

Is all that hoofing still going on?

ICT should always have stripes. Red/Blue stripes aren't that common in the football world (except Barca, Palace, Basle and a few more) and ICT should latch on to this to create a pretty unique identity.

With ICT having a few decent centre-backs now, is it time to punt McGuire? I do. I'd actually go as far as saying he's one of the most incompetent centre-backs I've ever seen in an ICT shirt. As much good as an old wet hat.

No it doesn't

Flower of Scotland, Garbage. Caledonia, cringewrothy

What about "Hey Hey My My" by Neil Young but insert Caley Thistle into the lines.

Hey hey, my my

Caley Thistle can never die

There's more to the picture

Than meets the eye.

Hey hey, my my.

Out of the blue and into the red

You pay for this, but they'll strike you dead

And once you're gone, you can't come back ahead

When you're out of the blue and into the red.

The king is gone but he's not forgotten

Is this the story of johnny rotten?

It's better to burn out 'cause rust never sleeps

The king is gone but he's not forgotten.

Hey hey, my my

Caley Thistle can never die

There's more to the picture

Than meets the eye.

Both, though ashamed of them both at times.

The fact he is Scottish is neither here nor there . In the context used it implies all Scots are idiots , so it is racist IMHO .

No it doesn't.

None of those keepers are as good as the legend that is Raimond van der Gouh

First and foremost a human being.

When George W was president everyone called him an idiot and there was no problem.

It was well documented that Dubya was indeed an idiot - he had a certificate to prove it, whereas Gordon Brown was quite an intelligent man - that was the difference.

I do find this tendency for the masses to choose to be offended over trifling little things a bit tiresome nowadays.

Clarkson has made a career out of this sort of thing and many people find him amusing and unafraid to say what he thinks - none of this hand-wringing tree-hugging PC nonsense from him, and I respect that.

Unfortunately many of us Scots have a huge inferiority complex about our nation and heritage and a rather large chip on our shoulders, which is why this particular thread has come about.

Rise above it, for goodness sake!

That's something that rings true with me. What is it about some Scottish people that they can never move on, as if they are special, brilliant, perfect and yearn for a return to the life only now visible in history books or shortbread tins and this nostalgia holds it (Scotland as a whole) back.

I'm keen to find out what folk think about Butcher's style of play. Better than Brew's? etc.

After last season when the players trained up at the pitch in culloden, djebi-zadi was always alone, didn't seem to fit in. I always felt sorry for him, maybe Butcher has included him and this has shown in his ability to play.

I certainly wouldn't put 100% into something if no one made an effort with me.

I don't know if that is true anymore as I've seen Lionel in Starbucks with a few times. The earlier thing could have something to do with poor English (or so I've read).

When George W was president everyone called him an idiot and there was no problem. What is it with some people? You can't walk three steps without someone being insulted. It happened with the Ross/Brand malarky that was just ludicris and it's gone and on since then. People need to get on with their lives and complaining every two seconds. BTW I don't mind Jeremy Clarkson though I can see why others don't if you know what I mean.

I think I'll use the Attacking Winged formation (aka - The Renegade Special ). A nice tall back line Tokely, Duff, Djebi-Zadi and Mihadjuks (possibly the tallest ICT defence ever) with Djebi-Zadi and Tokely able to run down either flank (Vigurs can fill in at left back if needed while Lionel is down the other end) with Munro onto the bench (Tokely captain), as I'd like to see a really tall backline. McBain and Vigurs in the centre of midfield with Morais and Imrie as left and right wingers, with Rooney and Foran up front.

--------------------------------Esson--------------------------------

-----------------Mihadjuks------------------Duff----------------------

---Tokely-------------------------------------------------Djebi-Zadi---

-------------------Proctor-------------------Vigurs---------------------

---Morais----------------------------------------------------Imrie-----

-------------------Rooney-------------------Foran--------------------

Subs - Fraser, Munro, McBain, Wood, Odhiambo, Byrne, Kerr

If Morais is still out, move Proctor to right back and Tokely at right wing. If Imrie isn't playing great, move Vigurs to left wing and move Imrie into the centre ahead of McBain so he gets freer roam of the park and better attacking options.

If any of the aforementioned players are missing, stick Duncan on the bench.