4ize

Thomson is a crap ref......18 free kicks so far

That'll be Brewster's excuse explanation sorted then.

To my jaundiced eye we've picked up a result in spite of Brewster and Thomson rather than thanks to them. It'll take more than a couple of changes and a result which could easily have been a draw to erase the patchy record, unfathomable substitutions (or lack thereof), obvious bafflement in the dugout when things go wrong, and failure to do anything to stop the rot on the way to a 5-0 first-half deficit. When either of them looks like they have a scooby how to change the game in our favour rather than just hit-and-hope, then I'll have a re-think.

That apart [edit, cos I'm beginning to sound like a proper sour old bugger], well done to the guys who stepped up to the mark and got a massive result in a hard fixture

Fraser would most likely have been a liability as he would have little confidence and the defence would have little faith in him. Guess fingers crossed.

Exactly. The manager will tell you that the defence starts with the strikers and the midfield and blah blah blah and that's right up to a point, but the defence ENDS with three or four defenders defending a keeper who defends a net. Ike has been dreadful recently - if the back four can feel confident with Ryan behind them, and not feel like *they* are the last line of defence, then bring it on.

Players get dropped - unfortunately the people who really need to be dropped are still making those decisions.

I accept Scotty's 'lack of effort' above BUT the rest being surprised at the result is a load of nonsense.

Look at the prediction league offerings, by our own knowledgeable fans, very few predicted a draw never mind a win and the winning score was even predicted. Be fair, we were all expecting to be done over but hoping for a wee result, I predicted a draw with my heart, not my head!!

Did you read the article? It's as much about Brew bemoaning dodgy refereeing in the 'Well and Bairns games as the 5-0 humping. It happens, but scoring goals stops it from mattering. That doesn't seem to have registered with grey'ead.

And while your right we cant realistically expect points it is the level of performance that irks people the most, when we lost at home to Celtic it wasnt all doom and gloom as the team performed as well as could be expected.

You are bang on. When we played Celtic we lost. No-one called for anyone's head, no-one asked which players should be out the door in January, and why was that? It was because the team gave 100%, battled through the game and lost to the (arguably) better side on the day. On another day we might have won, or snuck a draw, but it didnt happen. Last week we basically laid down for Rangers and allowed them to do whatever they wanted. There was none of the heart, spirit or passion from the Celtic game and no apologies, just excuses. If we played every game like the Celtic game, we would be a lot higher up the table and win or lose we would be able to write screeds of positivity about our team ........

Who'd have thought it, our Brew turning into the consummate politician? There's so much spin in that press conference that I feel like I've just got off the Waltzer - queasy, disappointed and with no appetite for another go. The journalists must have stronger stomachs than I, because I hear they just found it amusing.

I'm probably hallucinating but I recall this same guy saying that league position doesn't lie and that, to a degree, you make your own luck. Still, it's easier to blame the officials than the strike force which you, personally, hand-picked and which, after months under your guidance and tutelage, couldn't hit a bloody barn door.

A good goal keeper should be in command of his penalty area and should be shouting instrutions to his defenders at the top of his voice. My seat in the Nother Stand is close behind the goal and I seldom hear Mikey shouting at his defence. I think our defence are at sixes and sevens if they do not have confidence in the goalie and I think that is part of our problem. As has been said, we have not seen enough of Esson in competitive games to judge his ability in comparisson to Fraser but with his experience with Aberdeen I feel he would bring some confidence back to our defence and hope that CB gives him the chance on Saturday.

To be fair to Fraser, Brown wasn't a great shouter or a commander of the penalty area either; Brown's biggest assets were Mann and Dods, whilst Fraser is now without a player of that ilk *and* without the benefit of learning from someone who could marshal the defence.

However, his form - not just the game at Ibrox but his form - has been terrible recently. The last three times I've seen him play, he makes our back four far more nervous than anything running at them with the ball. There is no way on earth that he should have started against the Gers - good man management to play a keeper who's making mistakes and at odds with the defence? I can't agree. Drop him and let him find the form in the reserves rather than play dice with the club's future. Oops, I forgot, that's Brew's favourite game.

See, I told you we would look at this differently in the morning.

Come on ICT, give the Hibees a thrashing next week.

D'ya want me to find that smiley for ya?

Better the devil you know.

Attitude of the abused the world over.

That tube on the radio, Jim Thing, doesn't give a sh1te about the two ICT callers, just wants to usher them off and get on with talking about the OF.

If it was 5-0 against Hamilton, then I would be calling for Brews head,but today was out of the ordinary. As the Mannie said, we are no worse than 8 or so other teams. Bit of tightening up to do, though.

<splutters> A bit of tightening up?!? TM4TJ is talking about the team - are you suggesting the *management* put us in amongst those eight teams? Because if so you've definitely got one of those wee farms in yer attic. McGhee hung Brew and Malky out to dry with the substitutions - from their reaction you'd think 'Well had brought the Invisible Man on. A bit of tightening up??? The darker it gets the faster we're driving pal, and there are no bloody lights on in the dugout.

We will all look at it differently in the morning.

To be honest, all other teams are on a hiding to nothing against the old firm, anything from these games is a bonus.

We were gubbed, by a much superior team. No disgrace in that really. The thing that is eating into all of us though is the manner of the defeat and the shambles of the direction from the leaders. 5-0 at half time is pretty poor though. Hope all those that went along saw the funny side of it. Nobody died and nobody was seruiously injured. We will have to re-group for the next few games. This is surely the most crucial stage of Brew's tenure at ICT. If he can't turn this around then the board have to appoint someone who can and maybe even look at their own positions closely.

Don, I've admired your optimism (sorry, bright-sided viewpoint) over the last couple of seasons and tried to take a bit of heart from it, but I'm starting to wonder if you've got one of those wee farms in your attic (if you have, hang a tea towel out the window on Monday and I'll check from work, God knows I could do with a lift). We've got Hibs, Hearts, Cellic and Killie this month, not to mention the Bairns who have a long reputation as a bogey team for us - and CB will be excused till Christmas and beyond on that basis, even if we lose every one. There's nothing more crucial about this stage in Brew's tenure than any other in his past: Bennett and possibly the entire board seem to think the sun shines out of every orifice he possesses. Realistically, the only way this side is going to regroup is in the first division with a new manager and a clearout of a festering boardroom. The only question in my mind is how long does the agony last because, hey, avoiding relegation is the priority

Brewster will say that he was happy with the team effort, we were unlucky for some of the goals, the 2nd half was a much better effort etc etc etc!

Scarily similar to the sh!te he's spouting on the radio just now - not too keen on the team, mind, but remind me who picked them, Craig?

That's 5.

These things happen. Its important to not let a habit start though, as my Mrs said.

These things happen... to sides managed by Craig Brewster. We went a season unbeaten against these under Charlie, ffs. And sod the "but who else would we get" talk, I'd take Robbo's left erse-cheek in preference to this clown.

1-0 Motherwell... so you are there god!

Long way to go though...

I'm at work in Cumbernauld this afternoon, very glad I didn't bunk off and go to the match

What a shambles, thank god for the Accies

Don't speak too soon, they might win today, and so might Falkirk. Talk about HMS Sneck, we're gonna be a proper bunch of submariners if this farce carries on - going down, down, down

This is embarrassing too watch...can't believe i've stayed in too watch this S#### we are stock

Fraser should never have started this game after his last two or three performances. He's been spreading more fear and alarm through our defence than any of the opposition strikers. Brewster hasn't a clue, but that's hardly news. Cricket score on the way.

Well I think we are so close to giving someone are really good doing, it will happen soon, when all these chances we're creating will go in.

As for our Manager, it's a wonder he's not getting blamed for the world's financial crisis?

Sorry, you're absolutely right, I'm sure he's had nothing to do with coaching the strikers. So it's nothing to do with him that Dargo took ages to find a bit of form, that Wyness couldn't get in the groove again despite getting himself into the box umpteen times a game, that Niculae was frankly appalling in front of goal given his pedigree, or that Barrowman and Rooney and, recently, Wood, who should be banging them in for fun, are missing. Even taking the coaching out of it, even supposing that the player gets his own goals and that it's a confidence thing, if you stick a lad up front on his own, don't change your game plan to suit what's happening on the pitch, don't make the substitutions to match - anyone for Motherwell? - and basically make it ten times harder for your striker to score, aren't you then, as a manager, responsible for eroding the striker's confidence? People have to stop apologising for the manager and he has to stop hiding behind Lady Luck. I'm saying no more, sick to the back teeth of this. It's gone on way, way too long.

can't see us getting anything, really need to stop this bad run or it could turn into a bad season.

i never understand why brew never picks barrowman. he is a good manager, but i don't understand him sometimes.

final whistle, we're out!!!!!!! Never mind, we'll focus on europe now.

Sorry, but Brew still doesn't cut it as a manager. Given the striking resources he thinks he has, and knowing the striker he was, you have to question whether he cuts it as a coach either. He may have been able to read the game from the front line but he clearly can't see ***** from the dugout. Substitutions are back to last-gasp status or just incomprehensible. Utterly, utterly sick of this utter, utter bollocks. The players deserve better, let alone the fans. I fully expect Brew to be there at the start of next season, but if he is I won't be taking an eighth season ticket.

Leeds are likely to make a bid for him in January and we'll have to accept there offer or lose him for nothing come the summer.

Why wasn't he signed on a 3 year deal!!

If he'd signed on a 3-year and then turned out to be a lemon there'd be all hell let loose about that too; besides which, despite his cousin/best mate/favourite tree on here giving us full disclosure do we actually know whether he was prepared to sign a longer contract? His dad comes across as a wise gent and he has an agent I guess? Either of them, or Chip himself, may have reckoned rightly that two years was enough time to raise his stock. Given our apparent lack of bottle or nous in transfer negotiations, it's not impossible...

Russell Duncan does a very important and unglamarous job for ICT. He breaks up a lot of play by the opposition. So, his passing isnt the best.........just as well its not integral part of his role.

He is a very useful player and a bit of an unsung hero.

Which Russell Duncan? Because there's two of him, and you never know which you're gonna get, in the same way were were warned about Lionel. On his day - of which he had many last season - he's an invaluable part of the team, an anchor the likes of which we've not seen since Keogh was at his brief but brilliant best. On off days he's a complete liability - it's all opinion but I've rarely seen him have a so-so game, he's either great or atrocious. Unfortunately (yes, again) the guy who either profited from his excellence or covered up for his inadequacy - Richie Hart - was shown the door.

What IHE said will do for me. Totally bizarre idea to start experimenting with the line-up in a cup game, the day after we've blamed a 400k+ loss in part on poor cup runs last season. By any reasonable business standards Brewster should be having the riot act read him by Bennett.

4ize....tell us what your really think :018:

I think it's bedtime

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you're welcome to disregard anything I say after 10pm of a Saturday. You disregard everything I say anyway :thumb04:

I hope Brew's thinking behind keeping Wagaluka on for another week is to give Black a kick up the erse, and I hope we sign the lad. Two attacking passes in 93 minutes doesn't cut it. Ian took one for the team in the second half but his attacking instinct seems to be missing so far this season, and he eventually reverted to type and leathered a shot wide looking for glory when there were passing options. Wagaluka on the bench might waken him up.

For a neutral it would have been a cracking game; for me it was a point gifted to us after they missed three gilt-edged chances and had what looked like a penalty claim waved away. Great entertainment, some good passing football but we need to get the key positions sorted out.

Agree with the last paragraph there but regarding Blacks passing - he seemed to be the only person in our team who seemed to realise that pumping balls up to Barrowman who was being marshalled by Jones were a waste of time. No point lobbing balls up the park to the B.F.G. as you are just going to turn over possession. I'd rather keep the ball and pass and probe than give the ball back to the other side which is, sadly, what we did a lot in the 2nd half.

Hear what you're saying rig, but he's not even looking around at the moment, just ticking boxes. He can pass sideways and back from now till Friday but there were guys running into space out wide all afternoon and getting nowt.

Please, bring him in. I couldn't stand the guy when he first came in but 'Machine' was a tag well earned - unless somebody's gonna kidnap Bobby and stick him in a Turkish bath for a couple of weeks, Darren is first name on the sheet.

Tokely wasn't that bad at all. His final ball in was poor but defensively I thought he was solid enough. I thought O'Brien was going to ravage him throughout the 90 but he was so effectively cancelled out that he was replaced by a skunk.

Defensively he was far from solid!!!

Well I'm convinced now! Where was he particularly lacking in defence today?

For starters, everything Hibs did today was pretty much down their left side... and every single time they attacked Ross was out of position... i thought he was absolutely shocking today...

Wtf? I've just logged on and confess that I've not read all of this thread, but Ross is getting pelters?!? His last ball was terrible on a couple of occasions but so were Cowie's and others when we were playing left-to-right with a strengthening wind. We all know he can't leg it back in record time but when he was present in defence he looked pretty solid to me. What did stand out is just how much we miss Grant and, in his absence, Proc these days. I've given McGuire time but he doesn't look up to the job. Jamie Duff is looking like a fantastic addition but we need someone to lead the line and it's not often you see a nineteen-year-old capable of that. Centre half needed, but that's not news. Hastings wasn't 'all that' either.

I hope Brew's thinking behind keeping Wagaluka on for another week is to give Black a kick up the erse, and I hope we sign the lad. Two attacking passes in 93 minutes doesn't cut it. Ian took one for the team in the second half but his attacking instinct seems to be missing so far this season, and he eventually reverted to type and leathered a shot wide looking for glory when there were passing options. Wagaluka on the bench might waken him up.

Vigurs - excellent, but why was he on for Roy who was, for me, vying for motm until he was hooked? Imrie - very bad day at the office, taking way too long on the ball. Chip put in a decent shift but even he's started this season way below his own high standard from last.

Barrowman had some good spells but looked depressingly Mcallister-esque for most of the game (I can't be arsed, why isn't the ball falling at my feet, oh well IMGONNASCOREITSMYBALLGETOFFHOLDITUPIMAFOOTBALLINGGOD oh no, I'm not getting service, oh well...) and when Barry was brought on for him, too late as usual, why didn't he play as an out-and-out striker? Rooney looked less impressive than I'd like to say, but a great deal more impressive than his 'strike partner'

For a neutral it would have been a cracking game; for me it was a point gifted to us after they missed three gilt-edged chances and had what looked like a penalty claim waved away. Great entertainment, some good passing football but we need to get the key positions sorted out.

What we saw with Sutherland and Wagaluka was something not witnessed at TCS for a long long time.....ICT taking advantage of the width of the pitch with pacey players. We've not had that option since Robson left, and it was a joy to watch on Monday Night.

Good point, with the way we've played the last couple of seasons I'd almost forgotten we've not just the longest but the widest pitch in the SPL; once upon a time we'd wide players, and a manager, who knew how to exploit it.