Huisdean

I've been a ref for 19 years, though never above medium amateur level, and I've had poor games as well, but the overall standard of professional refereeing seems on the decline. Switzerland for example didn't have a Super League match without a major error since August. Same with Austria, and in Germany it's not very much better. The only reason I can think of is the unbearable pressure by the media...

but.............as I have said on another thread, if referees get the basic decisions correct, this negates a lot of the media attention that they get. Why a referee cannot get the basics correct is beyond me. Brine's performance in the second hald was astonishingly poor and could have cost us the game on another night. The goal gave County a great lift which they would not otherwise have got. The fact that they were poor and unable to take advantage of the many dodgy decisions that went their way should not mask the impact Brines had on the game in the second half. His poor refereeing effectively made the game a lot poorer in the second half.

Quick question for you - are any of you current or past referees, or (heaven help me for even suggesting this) personally know or be related to one?

I am just curious, as no-one here (or on other boards) seems to speak much about the definitive referee oversight mechanism or how it works. And it not only applies to the highest grades, it applies to all SFA qualified referees regardless of the level they choose to officiate at. From the commentary on this and other threads where this is discussed, many seem to think there is no background activity regulating the performance of the referee and that they are the ultimate authority, which although correct in terms of the Laws of the Game and the actual match itself at the time it is played, is not the case in the wider scheme. Referees at the top level will always have an observer present, who is responsible for making a report on their performance and where there is cause for concern, this will be dealt with via internal means. They have to meet minimum performance standards on a consistent basis over an average of matches played. Those who are persistently below par will be quietly replaced. Problem with this can be two-fold - 1) there needs to be games that they are poor in before this can trigger the process and 2) who are the thrusting young up-and-comers pushing to take their place? If there is no one stepping up to be counted, you are left with what there is and if that is not good enough, then who can we really blame for that? People are put off being a ref because really, who apart from a masochist or the mentally challenged would want to do it nowadays? So the problem will never resolve itself.

There also has to be an understanding here as to why the authorities are so protective of the concept of the referee as the arbiter of the game - just look at the way nearly every decision is challenged by players, often in an aggressive and confrontational manner. If the status of the referee were to be even slightly diminished, this would only get worse and it would lead to even worse performances at times as refs second-guess themselves or allow bias to creep in just in an effort to keep the aggro level down. It should not be allowed to happen and it may go some way to explain why the SFA seems to have such an entrenched position on the matter. Never underestimate the influence of FIFA in these things as well.

Certainly there are times that I, as an ex-referee, will watch a game and see a poor performance that sometimes I just shake my head at. But while a player or two can be below par on the day they can hide more easily - the ref cannot. Their faults and foibles will be there in the limelight for all to see. Talk about pressure. But there are just as many times when I listen to or read comments from fans who make comments on performances that are simply unfair and at times totally unrealistic.

What I find strange is that the SFA does not do more to explain about the observer process, but it could be much to do with the points I have made above.

I realise this may not be a popular post, and I am not defending referees just because I used to be one, but I hope you will appreciate that I am giving an honest view from what may be seen as "the other side". Only by understanding how it works can we decide if it really is failing and from there work together as lovers of the Game to make it better. Constant dripping about how cr4p it is and how standards are falling is not fixing it, just making it worse.

Fillu appreciate where you are coming from and your point about players and referees having an off day is well made. However the referees can help themselves in some areas and that is by getting the basic decisions correct in games. How often do we see blatant fouls not given, throw ins/corners given to the wrong team etc etc. I think if referees got the basic decisions correct, this would diffuse a lot of the flak they are getting now.

Of course there will always be contraversial decions where the refreee has to call it as he sees it without the benefit of seeing 10 replays but I would argue that if the really basic errors you see week in week out from referess were cut out, the situation would improve. I also think the media have a lot to answer for as, with all the replays they have, they can and do have a go at referees rarely indicating that the refreee could not see the incident how the multiple cameras have caught it.

Something has to be done to improve the quality of refrees however and the SFA have to take the lead on that. Just quietly dropping them down a level/grade does nothing. I also think the SFA is hugely culpable with the younger referees coming through by turning them into virtual robots. The younger referees seem to be brainwashed by the SFA that thye must referee in a certain way which takes away the refrees discretion to deal with certain situations. If a refereee did that nowadays, he would probably be marked down hweres in days gone by, common sense would have been exercised by the referee but they are now too afraid to do this.

Huisdean - from the referees perspective !!

Only a yellow, I genuinely don't know if that is good or bad from you IHE!!

Some interesting debate on this but the bottom line is that refereeing performances are getting worse, not just in Scotland, but nothing seems to be done to discipline or improve the referees. I think managers should have the right to comment on referee's performance as it can have a huge impact on games.

The referee yesterday was hopeless, easily the worst I have seen at home this season but fortunately we won so not much comment on this from posters. Despite a very very poor performance, he walks off the park smiling, pockets more than a lot of the players and faces no comeback on his many poor decisions. Something has to be done on the standard of refereeing otherwise most managers will be sent to the stand.

The ref may have got the sending off correct but got our penalty wrong ( wasn't a penalty to me) and has been vindicated by Anderson' s sending off being rescinded. However, there is then a strong case of the referee realising that he had got the penalty wrong and denied the blatant penatly with Doran. There cannot be any excuse from the SFA or the ref on the denial of that penalty.

So while Butcher may be correctly banned, what happens to the ref who did not perform well. Will the SFA tell us, will the feck. Until some referee gets obviously "disciplined" for poor performances, the standard of refereeing will continue to get worse

I agree with gingerjaggy that until the SPL format changes, that will have an impact on attendances. Not sure how much, and don't think this is the sole reason for our delining attendances but certainly a factor.

I have reason to believe that ability made little to no part in his decision at all.

Give it a rest with all this "reason to believe" guff. If you know something, spit it out or don't bother posting as this adds nothing to the debate.

^{So after an excellent comeback against Hearts last week we got a totally hopeless performance today. As has been mentioned already, the two late goals leave only a mis-leading scoreline that does not reflect the drubbing it was. Our weaknesses at the back, middle and front were exploited by a makeshift Celtic team, that may be able to draw on talented youngsters like Watt, but in reality should never have proved to be the obstacle we allowed them to be. Devoid of any inspiration and invention, especially in the final third. Butcher and Malpas look like they have a massive job ahead, just to keep us in the SPL}

After 1 bad game this is siad. I despair!.

Those two late goals, when Celtic had stopped playing, should not be allowed to detract from the fact that, for the first eighty minutes, we were an absolute embarrassment.

First up, the team selection was dreadful. We know Raven has struggled at right back. We know Sutherland has contributed nothing on the wing. Yet both started, while Nick Ross was stuck in a deep midfield role instead of on the wing. What does Morrison have to do to get a start?

I've no idea what the tactics were today. We appeared to be playing a shambles-0-1 formation from what I could see. Anyone who has watched Celtic the last 2 years knows Hooper drops deep into the space between midfield and attack - so most teams sit someone in front of the defence to counteract that. We didn't. So when he came deep, either our centre-half let him go, meaning he got the ball into feet and had time to turn and run at us, or the centre-half went with him, leaving Watt one on one with his partner (as for the second goal). The contrast to Ross County's performance against Celtic last week was striking. Derek Adams clearly had a tactical plan on how to make things difficult for their opponents. Terry Butcher just thought he'd put 11 players on the pitch and see what happened.

The third goal summed it up. Presumably the players got a bollocking at half-time, but none of them were switched on enough to interfere with what was a pretty simple set-piece trick. Frankly, I think it's because most of them didn't really care about whether we won or lost today.

Aside from Aaron Doran, none of our players looked like they wanted the ball...and Doran didn't use it that well when he got it. McKay was isolated as usual, but he failed to hold the ball up even when he got it into the channels or in to feet. The one time he got in behind, he wasn't quick enough to hold off the defenders. He's too small, he's too lightweight, he's not quick enough and he can't score...but apart from that, he's a top player.

Ross and Doran tried hard, at least; the former was clearly out of position. Andy Shinnie barely touched the ball, and had one of those days where it seemed like every decision he made was the wrong one. Is Sutherland blackmailing the manager with dodgy photos or something? I can't think of another reason why he is in the team. Draper might have got two goals, but for a big unit he was outmuscled and outfought a lot. He wasn't the only one who couldn't manage to complete 5 yard passes to unmarked teammates - there were a lot of others (what the hell do they do in training?) - but he was the most culpable. He also has the turning circle of a bus, and Celtic just passed the ball around him.

Our backline was so bad that they might have given me Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Raven was a catastrophe. He kept giving the ball away easily, kept being caught out of position, and kept being skinned. The centre-backs were also calamitous, particularly King, who was nutmegged within a minute by Hooper, and then was totally culpable for the second Celtic goal. Graeme Shinnie was the best of a bad bunch. Esson looked shaky at times, but I don't think he was culpable for any of the goals.

The only positive I can think of was the perfomance of Pepper as a sub, who was lively and keen to get involved...and whose through ball for Draper's second was the only piece of quality football we produced all day.

Lastly, Butcher should be censured for turning round and having a rant at the fans when we went 2-0 down. At that point we hadn't even managed to put three passes together, and there had been absolutely nothing to cheer - what does he expect? He should just be grateful that some of us (fewer and fewer by the week) are dumb enough to still pay through the nose to watch this utter dross.

Can you tell I'm angry?

Yeah you can tell and that is why I have to disagree with a lot of what you say. Sure we deserved to get beat today but to say that the players didn't seem to care is totally wrong. I thought the players did try and we simply got beat by the better team on the day. Losing the first goal early really killed us I think but to totally slate the players and management team as you have done, is just symtomatic of so many posters who cannot see any good in anything the team do.

I agree with you about Raven though, Meekings has to start next week along with Nick ross if he is fit. I actually think Sutherland was more involved today than in previous games but he seems to be really lacking confidence. I also thought the central defenders did not too bad, especially Warren in the second half but they do seem to have a tendancy to get caught square.

Final word on the crowd today, lack of home support is shocking. Don't want to hear the usual excuses from some posters, either you support the team or you don't and go to the games as otherwise, there will come a time when we have no team to support.

Well said Davie. Get out and support the team

Why all the moans about red cards all of a sudden. We are not the only team to have had them this season and the majority I have seen have been very soft indeed, another ref may not have sent some of these players off. As for us, OTJs was a simple rush of blood to the head, out of character in the games i have seen him play but this sometimes happened and he deserved to be sent off. As for Foran's tackle, debateable if it was a sending off but quite simply, he mistimed a tackle in my opinion and did not deliberately seek to injure an opponent. Sometimes you will get a yellow, sometimes a red but the abuse OTJ and Foran have been getting from some posters is way over the top.

It will be interesting to see what impact this has on the attendance as this will affect County supports to who travel from all over Ross-shire. I don't think this game will sell out now but hopefully will be proved wrong.

Did we play well for twenty five minutes and then cave in or did we play well for twenty five minutes then the other team changed things and we were caught out? What I am seeing is a positive change to our style of play and a positive attitude within the team. It is going to take a few games to get things right but it will happen and we will have a very good season.

Tactics are not just about what we do. They are about what the other team does as well. On saturday Killie done a better job of sussing us out than we did of sussing them out. They changed their play to counteract our dominance and we didn't respond.

That is what I was going to ask before I was so rudely interrupted !!

Can some body with a footballing brain, qualified or unqualified attempt to clarify what exactly went wrong. As I posted after the Midden match my concern was that our system was positive but if the likes of unqualified peeple such as maself can suss how it works and where the potential flaws are then what about the more qualified peeple ? I was hoping that a home game would provide me / us with a concept of what Plans B,C and D would be - how we could change the system quickly if necessitated. As Alex states it is not what we do but how we are able to change the system and style. Some teams do this time after time and often in relation to the opposition.

Or was it simply a case of some players playing poorly - or out of position - or not used to playing with each other etc., etc., etc.

Killie definately changed their tactics although not sure if this was deliberate or whether forced by their injuries. This seemed to push us further and further back, again don't know whether this was down to Killie or players decided easier to sit back and defend. We did defend well but the promlem with playing so deep was that there was then no outlet and inevitably the ball ended up back with Kilmarnock. Certainly you could hear fans telling the team to get up the pitch, and I think Terry and Mo as well but we seemed to lack a leader or someone on the pitch to put that into operation. After ithe initial spell, we also got overun in midfield as kilmarnock seemed to flood this and often we only OTJ and Draper gainst several Kille players. Sutherland and Doran did track back sometimes but generally only in the wide areas leaving too mucg space in the middle of the park.

Altough generally passed off the park for long spells, little cutting edge from Killie and we certainly had the better chances but didn't take them. My one major worry is that, at the moment, I don't think we have a plan B to change tactics although that may be down to the new players getting used to our system. I also think the system we have doesn't work particularly well at home but we don't seem to be able or want to change this. I say all this from a fans perspective, not with any insight as a coach but it does worry me that we are a bit one dimensional in terms of tactics/systems.

To put some perspective on it finances wise looking at the figures if we (an SPL club) have sold say 2,000 STs at £300 that gives us £600k. The Rangers (a 3rd division club) have according to my bluenose workmate sold around 35,000 at say £250 so far giving them over £8.75mil. That gives them over 14 times our budget based on STs alone. To say nothing for the £250k deficit we already run at.

I know it would be great to have bought in another Hayes and a proven striker but we have no money for this. All I hope that the team does it's best and shows desire, determination and passion on the pitch. If I feel the team has played to its potential and still lost you'll get no complaints from me. Of course if the team doesn't do that is a different matter.

Clearly there are other issues within the managers control such as team selection, positions, tactics, subs etc and if folk think these are wrong fair dos, I often disagree with TB too and some of his decisions can be downright baffling.

However the way some folk go on they'll no be happy unless we play in a manner that is a cross between Dutch total football, 70s Brazil and the current Spanish team. Hopefully our threadbare squad will come good and do us proud, but to write them off after one home game is very premature. Actually for some strange reason I,m more optimistic about this season than last.

Totally agree with your last paragraph. Nobody can ever "guarantee" entertainment at a football match but as long as the team shows desire, commitment and passion on the pitch, then they will get my support. Speaking to some Aberdeen supporters after the RC game, they said there was precious little entertainment from both sides yet the fans backed their respective teams to the hilt during the game.

What's the red card for?

Bait

Red Snapper perhaps?

Since when when has supporting a club meant you can't express an opinion of the way a club is managed? We know that the club does not have a lot of money but the comments IHE and others make are generally comments about how we deploy the players that we have. The club needs bums on seats and therefore the club needs to hear what it is that prevents people putting their bums on the seats. Expressing a view point which just happens to be critical should be seen as helpful. And whether you like it or not, you should at least respect people's right to express it.

It really is pretty tiresome getting these constant tirades which suggests that saying anything other than that Butcher is the new Messiah should be a hanging offence. I don't know IHE personally but I have seen him at matches and believe me, if a few more people supported the club the way he does the club would be a hell of a lot better off for it and the match day experience would a hell of a lot better.

With all due respect Dad, that's not what's happening here. A contrary opinion isn't necessarily a tirade. What is happening is that some people are clouding the issues by using fairly ridiculous hyperbole and personalisation and people respond to that rather than the content of the argument. I think that the way things are going points to a fairly fundamental split emerging in the fans and what they want. Are we to be a lower league highland sourced club, or are we a cosmopolitan one? Are we prepared to live with the consequences of another relegation because we play cavalier football? Are we prepared as a support to take a share of the responsibility if it doesn't pan out? Or do we want a club that challenge in the SPL with the rules that come with it? Your choice, but I just hope that the club survives the choices that seem to be currently being made.

I think this hits the nail on the head very well. The choice does appear to be boiling down to this and apathy from the footballing public of Inverness. Oh and one more point, while we all like to be entertained when we go to see football, it never has and never will be guaranteed when attending a football match (well maybe if you support Barcelona). The excuse from some posters that they are not going back until the team becomes more entertaining doesn't wotk for me anymore and certainly not at this stage of the season

Since when when has supporting a club meant you can't express an opinion of the way a club is managed? We know that the club does not have a lot of money but the comments IHE and others make are generally comments about how we deploy the players that we have. The club needs bums on seats and therefore the club needs to hear what it is that prevents people putting their bums on the seats. Expressing a view point which just happens to be critical should be seen as helpful. And whether you like it or not, you should at least respect people's right to express it.

It really is pretty tiresome getting these constant tirades which suggests that saying anything other than that Butcher is the new Messiah should be a hanging offence. I don't know IHE personally but I have seen him at matches and believe me, if a few more people supported the club the way he does the club would be a hell of a lot better off for it and the match day experience would a hell of a lot better.

Everyone has the right to express an opinion and would never try to stop that but I think the point Oddquine was trying to make is the constant carping that goes on here by some posters. We could win the Scottish Cup and I guarantee some posters would be on here moaning about this that or the other and that is what is beginning to sicken me about some of our support. I don't think Butcher is the new messiah and, to be perfectly honest, if no real improvement in the team this season, in terms of results and performance, I do think it will be time for a change but let's give the team a chance first before expressing some of the nonsense spouted on here.

I do know IHE, although not seen him for a few years. I know he wholeheartedly supports ICT but some of his posts are so OTT that they border on farce sometimes. I am well aware IHE likes to fish at times but a little less often would be welcome!.

I've just done some maths there and out of Ross County's squad that played Aberdeen, there was....and wait for it - 1366 Caley Thistle appearances (Out of Tokely, Munro, Duncan, Fraser and Vigurs). Out of all the players that played for ICT at the Caley Stadium against Kilmarnock, there was......478 Caley Thistle combined appearances - 143 of which were Ryan Esson's. Ross Tokely has more ICT appearances that today's entire squad combined, and taking away Esson's appearances, the total for the ICT outfield players was 335. That's less than both Munro and Duncan's respective appearances.

And therein lies the problem. People are starting to feel dissatisfied and unattached to the club the once felt a part of - and Terry Butcher is to blame. Long ball football, strangers coming and going and a team playing more not to lose than to win - and we wonder why season tickets are down. It's not the club we once knew and I feel it too. It'll be a long time - if ever, that we have something we can truly believe in happening again and that's not nostalgia talking - that's facts.

Utter nonsense. It is only the fact that some people continuallybring this up that keeps this as an issue. Of course more local players help maintain local interest but were Duncan or Tokely locals lads, no they were not. You support your local team and I think the club are trying to work through the community to get some support as Caley D mentions in his post but sadly the local population just do not want to respond but please stop this drivel about Butcher changing the makeup of the team being responsible for declining attendances as it is simply not the case. Oh and by the way, the constant droning on about long ball football is also becoming tiresome. If you listen to Butcher at home games, he is urging the ball to be kept on the deck, it is the players, perhaps due to the Scottish mentailty, that resort to the long ball and we are not the only team that does this. Why, even Kilmarnock did this yesterday but that spoils a good moan if that is not mentioned.

I have to say that I am totally hacked off with soem posters on this topis. Renegade's first post baing a classic example. We did not lose the game yesterday and the football played, especially in the first 20 minutes was really good. It didn't match that after that although there were still some examples throughout the game, Nick Ross's chance at the end being a prime example. As for OTJ's red card, it was a definite red but some of the criticsm of him on kere is unbelievable. I think the red mist descended on him after aa bad tackle, and it was a bad tackle, and he reacted. If you have played football, then you know these things sometimes happen. As i have said he deserved to be sent off but it was out of character and up till then had possibly been our best player. incidentally, his sending off did not cost us the game where i can think of a few of Tokely's that did and cannot remember Tokely getting the same flack as OTJ.

As soemone said, this was the first home game of the season and the things are looking better after 2 games than they did last season but some fans/posters are still expecting us to start the season as world beaters. Incidentally, not surprised that Butcher sometimes reacts to fans in the main stand especially when after 5 minutes in, ceratin players are getting huge abuse from some home fans. After hearing this for ages at least one other fan and myself challenged them to get behind the team and they looked bemused that someone should challenge them. I think we must have some of the worst supporters ever and I genuinely mean that. As for the attendance, the people of Inverness should be ashamed of themselves after yesterday. I am tired of hearing that we have been crap at home for so long (which isn't alaways true) that they are not going to attend anymore or will pick and choose their games. A lot of the posters who post vitriolic or constantly negative posts to me are simply not worthy of being called supporters. Given yesterdays poor attendance, I again question if Inverness wants or merits an SPL team.

Truly truly dejected after reading some of these posts.

According to 1 of yesterdays red tops we've only sold 1200 season tickets !!!

Don't believe all you read

So what is the amount of sales ? Why do the club behave in such a secretive way over season ticket sales ?

I agree, surely if the club gave actual numbers, and they showed sales were well down, it might encourage some more sales?.

It has nothing to do with the fact that the video evidence is suspect or whether or not the SFA will or can take any further action, it is obvious that the ST Mirren Striker (Guy) merely "taps" the ball out of Draper'd hand and he goes down as if he were shot. If it was a player from another team then the majority on here would be calling for an endless ban due to simulation. Draper needs to get his act together or he may become a marked man for both players and Refs.

Totally disagree with this. I have only seen the TV highlights, and the mobile phone evidence. From the TV highlights, the situation is not captured and it is impossible to say from the mobile phone footage exactly what happened or how serious this was. What i will say is that from the TV highlights, the referee was in a good spot and was clearly looking at the incident so he saw what happened and made his decision. He was also not very far from the incident, ceratinly a lot closer than any of us or the fan using the phone.

The sending off was probably harsh but that is down to the referees decision, not our player. If the referee thought our player had simulated this act, he could have booked him and not sent the St Mirren player off. If our player did make the actual incident look worse, and I don't believe it was done to get a player sent off, then shame on him but hopefully he will learn from this.

We have suffered, especially last season from horrendous refereeing decisons and this incident, I would suggest says more about the quality of refereeing than anything else, so maybe we are due a bit of luck/justice from referees. It amy also be aprt of becoming more streetwise as a team, possibly because some of the new signings are older and more experienced, which was also badly needed last season. At times we are simply too nice a team.

It's all very well fans not renewing season tickets but then they cannot complain if the quality of players we can sign then decreases due to lack of money. It will be intersting to see the results of the poll but when you see a team like Hibs increasing their season ticket sales and Aberdeen as well, when they were equally as poor as us last season, if not poorer, it does make you question the loyalty of some supporters. As I have said before, Inverness either wants an SPL team or it doesn't, I think too many fans would be happier being in the lower divisions.

SMEE - while £12 a game would be great, and I agree that football is overpriced, I don't even think that would get fans back sad to say.

Just a thought, and aimed at those who say they are staying away because of the quality of football last season, I seem to recall that the first time we were in the first division, and playing "attractive" football, our crowds struggled to hit 2000. Going from memory, so may be wrong, but I think we were generally one of the poorest supported teams in the first Division despite playing, allegedly more attractive football. This maybe backs up what Caley D has been saying and deeper analysis is required as to why fans are not attending. People like me, who go to games no matter how the team are performing, are becoming fewer and fewer with fans much more fickle now for whatever reason. However real danger is we may not have a full time team at all if the crowds continue to go down so folks need to decide on what sort of ICT they want. Me, I want ICT playing at the highest level in Scottish football, not part time and moving around teh lower leagues but some fans seem to think that would be better than being in the SPL while stating the board/manager etc lacks ambition.

Maybe our decision makers should taken note!

And do what exactly?

They are running a BUSINESS and in any business they need to have a product which encourages people to buy into it. They need to quickly find out WHY our support are not buying as many season tickets.

• Is it because we can't afford it?
  
• Is it because we don't find the product value for money?
  
• Are there any othe reasons?
  

There must be reasons why we are always struggling financially and I'm sorry that some of you may not like this but it is the BOARD's responsibility to keep this business viable or we cut our cloth even further and play at a level we can AFFORD.

I don't want to be negative but it is a well known fact that a very prominent businessman is willing to make a substantial investment in this company but why has he not done so? Maybe he has no intention to invest under our present guardianship. For whatever reason, our men in charge need to find out if he has genuine intentions, what conditions are attached, make any changes needed and then do their utmost to get the job done.

While it is the Board's responibilty to keep the Buisness viable, the football public of Inverness has to respond and to be honest, the majority don't. A lot of people have posted that because games/performance were poor last season they will not renew their season ticket. It then becomes a vicious circle with declining revenue meaning players of lesser quality and so on. A challenge to "supporters" then, if you want the club to succeed and can afford it, renew your season ticket and help the Directors/Board

As ever some good ideas but nothing from the Board to indicate they are doing somethind. i have said before as have others, most notably IHE, that it appears some members of the board, not all, are just their for the position/prestige and do nothing to justify their place on the board. Effectively they are getting free advice from the fans FFS