Huisdean

To use a 4-3-3 properly, we'd need wing backs not a couple of 30-something full backs. You know, the type of athletic player capable of charging down those really wide area's that we have at TCS then when the attack breaks down, he should be able to get back to defend in no time at all. Otherwise we'd be totally defenseless on the wings. Opposition wingers could get as far as the final third, virtually unopposed. Bad times.

In short, we will not see a proper 4-3-3 (the way we'd all imagine it) any time soon. Unless it's against us.

I say we stop this nonsense of playing Imrie up front, get him on the left wing, get Hayes on the right have McBain in the middle, and Sanchez playing slightly behind Foran and Rooney/Barrowman (until Odhiambo comes back).

Agree fully with Jay 7 but would add you also need the correct midfield as well to plat this. Another poster suggested a midfield of Proctor, Cox and Hayes. Plat a midfield like that and we will ship even more goals if we play 4-3-3.

As with all systems, you need the players to play them and I don't think we have the players to do this. I would also disagree that the 4-4-2 currently being played at home is a defensive formation as what appears to be happening is that we are trying to plat 2 wide men in Hayes and Eagles and two in the middle. What is happening is that other teams suss this out and we get overun in central midfield.

The way we are playing?!!! When was the last time there was this many changes to the team and squad? Its still early days. We've only played 7 games. He is trying to build a team. Why dont you do what a supporter is supposed to do and get behind the team? Or can someone of your mentality not do that?

Deflect deflect deflect! Butcher has built a team with what little resources he has been provided. For that, he is to be commended. The way things stand (bearing in mind they have had two whole months to gel as a team - more than enough time in my opinion) we will not be getting promoted at the end of this season. The only thing that will change that is if Sutherland get's off his arse and opens the purse strings for Butcher.

There are the facts, I will leave you to figure out whether someone of "my mentality" can get behind a team that is so poorly looked upon by those who run it.

How can anyone say after 2months that we don't have a chance of promotion is beyond me. No team is yet running away with this league so of course we still have a chance. As for the team to gel in two months, sometimes it has, other times it has not but that is because they arte still getting to know each other. With so many new players, it will take longer than two months for the team to fully gel but it's getting there in certain areas.

As for your second paragraph, what exactly are you trying to say. The Board have not exactly come out of this smelling of roses but that has nothing to do with the volume of negative posts continually being posted.

I don't think the team deserves any criticism today. Overall the performance was a vast improvement on our previous encounter with county. Can't agree with the harsh criticism being bailed out to Robert Eagle, thought had a decent game. Our wingers were starved of decent service as they were in the first half against Plastic Thistle. Another case of far too many aimless punts down the middle, far too few well crafted moves down the flanks. When he was on the ball he looked a threat, and he pressed the county wide men all day when we lost possesson, winning more than his fair share of challenges throughout the 90 minutes.

Bulvitis also didn't have a bad game IMHO, his distribution is a little dodgey at times but at least he tries to pick out a pass rather than just hoof the ball straight back to the opposition. He's still a youngster so cut him some slack, he'll be a good centre half for us.

Are you the ICT spin doctor or something? What game were you watching?

This just proves to me you cannot win with some of the posters on this site. Not a grat game football wise bur FFS we won. Also a bit more fight than usual from the players so maybe they are starting to wise up. All this negative criticism on this forum really gets me down and I wonder if some of these posters really deserve to have a team in the SFL. Whatever happened to "true" supporters who support theit team through thick and thin and get behind the team. That is not to say accept everything and don't question anything but lets get behind the team.

I think from this topic, and others recently, that some posters here simply do not want Terry Butcher as the manager and go out of their way to find anythinh which they think adds ammunition to their case. This post is a perfect example as I cannot see what difference this would make to training if Tery Butcher was doing his pundit bit on TV and to suggest it would have an impact is ridiculous.

Someone asserted that there had been a bust up with some of the players at the weekend and that TB should still have been here fixing this. well if was still going on yesterday after the weekend, then something is seriously wrong.

Slightly off topic now, apologies for this but the constant carping about TB/MM is out of order. Yes we can all air our views but some people have written us off for promotion already and we are only 6/7 games into the season. No team is showing to be out and out favourite to win this league yet and the team that will win it will be the team that puts together a decent run before and after Christmas. We have to keep in with the pack just now and if we do, we still have every chance. Going back to when we were promoted previously, nobody thought at that stage of the season we were going to get promoted so long way to go yet.

So you think being taken to penalties by a part-time 3rd division side is acceptable? With a team who most of the players have SPL experience?

I think someone else needs the reality check.

It's a lot more acceptable than having lost....and the way some people are going on you would think we had.

A lot of people seem to be hanging the rest of the season on this one game...I'm not saying it was a fantastic performance, but as in any season we'll have days when things don't go to plan but we still pull off a result and we'll have days where we play outstanding football and take nothing from a match....such is the nature of the game.

We have people claiming "we won't do this and we won't do that" on the back of one match, and a match where we were missing a number of (what could be considered) key players. If we were well into the season and injuries etc had forced us to field that team and we got a result then we'd be delighted and we'd be noising up opposition fans with claims that even our reserves were beating them.....that for me is the reality of the situation.

What chance do we have if, after one game, the fans are already panicking, spreading doom and gloom and talking about relegation? I'm not saying we should be smothering the players/team with false praise, but I don't think we should be slinging up any nooses and herding them to the gallows.

Totally agree Caley D. I have replied to similar threads like this before where some contributors on this site really seem to be from another planet. This was the first competitive game of the season but in reality was still a pre season game. The same goes for Annan next week with the real season starting on 8 August. A 1-1 result against Falkirk would have kept us up last season and if we had got that playing as we did today, some of these so called supporters would still be moaning as it was only a 1-1 draw. Give some of the new guys a chance to settle in before jumping to conclusions about how good they are. If some of the contributors on here want to continue to endlessly moan, then all I can say is find another team to support as I honestly don't know how some can seriously call themselves supporters of ICT. Rant over.

TB quote from todays P&J

"I am pleased with the progress we are making, we are not spraying the ball about and dominating teams by beating them by seven or eight goals, you don?t do that in pre-season against teams like Elgin that work hard"

Shouldn't we be scoring 7 or 8? ,we are losing goals to crap teams!.

Mr Butcher isn't it amazing how much better things look when you add a bit of spin or is it the red wine !

G

When will some people on this forum start to wise up. These are pre-season friendlies and the whole purpose of them is to get players fit for the start of the season, and now it seems, to play triallists to see how they perform. They are NOT competative games so you cannot judge how we are performing until the real season starts. Oh and it's nice to see the arrogance creeping back in from some fans

"Shouldn't we be scoring 7 or 8? ,we are losing goals to crap teams!.".

There is no divine right to win any football match, you have to work hard at all levels and have the correct attitude. Do that and you will win more ganes than you lose.

Think I'm going to postpone getting mine till the last possible minute. See what sort of squad we actually manage to assemble before fully committing myself to another year of hell :allhail:

It's a free country so you are perfectly entitled to do this but..........if everyone does this, doesn't really help the club get money in to try and ensure we get back up from the SFL. Vicious circle I know but if you can afford it, it helps the club for Season ticket holders to renew as soon as possible.

It is impossible for anyone here, unless they have inside knowledege of training/player behaviours/etc to speculate on why some players have been let go and some offered contracts. The decision has been made so lets move on and get on with building a team for next season.

I am also hugely disappointed at the negativity of some posters who are already stating a mid table finish is the best we can hope for and, maybe not directly, starting to question whether Butcher is the man for the job. We will only know that at the end of next season but you cannot keep chopping and changing managers as that, in my opinion, has held back our development in the past few years (admittedly not our fault as managers have moved on of their own choice except Brewster). All TRUE fans must now get behind the team, renew their season tickets do whatever they can to support the team and if we can do that, I think we have a good chance of getting back up.

What is happening now, ie a team that is going to be rebuilt, should have happened 18 months ago and that is one of the main reasons we have been relegated. we now have a chance to build a new team and move forwards. C'mon the Jags.

You gotta win all the home games so I'd go with:

---------------------------------------Esson------------------------------------------------

---Gathuessi-------------Tokely ?----------------Mihadjuks----------Djebi-Zadi-------

----------------Vigurs------------------Black------------------Imrie----------------------

----------------Morais------------------------------------------Foran----------------------

--------------------------------------Barrowman------------------------------------------

Subs - Fraser, Proctor, Rooney, Kerr, Munro, Hastings, Odhiambo/McBain

A good attacking 4-3-3 for this one, Accies seem to like 3-5-2 or 3-6-1 so this would be a good formation to with. Gathuessi in at right back, a Tokely/Mihadjuks pairing I think would be excellent with Munro dropping to the bench even though he scored (or did he?) yesterday. The three in the middle of Vigurs, Black and Imrie with Imrie being applied heavily down the wing. The job of the three midfielders should be to ping it to either wing for a cross into the box. Barrowman up-front as the deep lying forward with Morais and Foran sitting just behind.

I agree with this team and formation. People are saying why change a winning team...well playing away from home to playing at home requires different tactics. we need to be more positive at home, that team above are all very positive players with blackie running the show. since kerr has come in blackie has dipped in form so I agree with leaving kerr out.

What planet are you guys on. It has to be a 4-4-2 formation and minimal changes to a winning team. What has Gatheussi done to displace Proctor?. the centre back pairing of Tokely and Munro has been solid. Did it escape you that Black had a good game yesterday because Kerr was playing??.

Doubt if we will see many changes and that is the way it should be. keep a winning tean together, that is waht has got us where we are in the SPL.

While I understand football is nothing without opinions, some of the nonsense expressed here beggars belief.

For starters, those expecting to see 90 minutes of free flowing football when we are fighting to avoid relegation are on a different planet. The aim now is to get as many points as possible by whatever means possible (hopefully with the off bit of good football thrown in here and there). Instead of moaning about the football being played, get behind the team to try and ensure we stay up. The time to judge Butcher is next season but some people are already sharpening the knives which is ridiculous. Don't people also realise the pressure on the players as well which does have an impact on how the games are being played.

I am not stupid and will be the first to say that Butcher made a bad mistake with his team selection yesterday and he must learn from that but at least he has got the fighting spirit back as there is no way we would have achieved the same results under Brewster.

Finally, yesterday we had to play not only Hamilton but the ref as well. That was the worst display of blatant time wasting by any team I have ever seen and was exactly what they did earlier in the season up here when they won as well. Billy Reid should not be allowed near that manager of the year trophy for his cynical cheating tactics. Had this happened in a game against the Old Firm, this would have been big news but as it was us, who cares in the national media. Hamilton players were going down so easily when challenged that I thought the Black Watch had left a team of snipers after their last visit.

Enough comment has been made about the referee as well but he was about to blow for a foul for us before hamilton broke up the park and got a very soft free kick which led to their goal. Why the ref didn't blow, only he knows but that ranks amongst the poorest decisions I have ever seen.

keep the faith fellow fans,we are staying up. It won't be pretty but it will be nerve wracking

I'll join the debate then, Vigurs is not good enough yet. Foran has been our best player recently and Kerr did nothing wrong last week without being too flashy. Looks like he will be the one to replace Black next season should we stay up.

Come back to our planet soon.

So let me get this right, your saying that Foran is a technically sound player? have you watched him pass a ball or even look up when he goes to pass, on saturday all he did was pass without looking up and most of the time it went straight to the opposition. These sort of players don't last, hence, every club he's played for has ditched him. Does that not tell you something no? ICT aren't going to stay up for long if they keep signing poor players.

Kerr on the other hand is technically a good player, however, he didn't do enough for me on saturday...poor blackie was knackered at the end of the game because he was doing all the running and looking for the ball all the time...Kerr wasn't doing this. Granted his pass to Morais was good but we were lucky we were playing st mirren and not a better team on saturday. If he is the one to replace blackie then I hope he raises his work rate double fold otherwise we are going to be left wanting in midfield next season especially if we stay up.

As for vigurs he was our best player along with black before butcher came in, he's a brilliant young talent. If he was played every week he would undoubtedly be our best midfielder. If you can't see that then you clearly aren't very good at picking out a good player.... We can't rely on duds from other clubs to do a job for us, if they (Foran) can't do it for those clubs they ain't going to do ot anywhere else. Wishful thinking my friend.

People are so quick to give praise when things are going their way, however, actually taking the time to analyse a player is different from just watching a team winning/losing/drawing a game.

I think it is you who needs to come back to our planet soon.

Like all fans we have opinions, some are proved right, some wrong.

However, Vigurs has the potential to be a very good footballer but in a few games this season, when the going got tough he disappeared. At this moment in time, we have to battle for every point and I don't honestly think Vigurs adds anything in that department yet.

Foran probably had his worst game since joining us but he has provided an aerial and goal scoring threat (at least he knows how to jump for a ball unlike Mr Barrowman). He is also very streetwise which many of our team are not. I thought Kerr had a quiet but effective game. Without doubt he is still finding his fitness and I think he will improve the more games he gets. The simple aim for this season is to stay in the SPL and being brutal, I don't care how we do it as long as we do. This is a time for experience but hopefully Vigurs will get his chance in the SPL next season when the style of football played will hopefully change.

Some people are missing the point here, and I think it was a good point made originally. Caley D got it spot on as well. In these days, you need to make the whole match a bit of an event which means playing decent music, working the crowd and building the atmosphere. As I said in my previous post, the song Monster should be an absolute godsend to the club to get the crowd going but they haven't twigged. A good announcer will get the crowd going which in turn will help the atmosphere which in turn helps the players which in turn makes it a much better matchday experience. I don't want to be negative but the Club has to look at things like this as I still think some of them are stuck in a time warp in the Highland League.

Its an important job richt enuff. I havent heard him but it is essential to the matchday atmosphere, so has to be entertaining, creative and above all professional. What do others think? Good or bad?

He seemed to have trouble with his Dundee and Dundee Utd's. Not good.

Agree with first poster, PS system was absolutely useless. Music too loud and then you couldn't hear teams or scores. To mix Dundee up with Dundee Utd was a joke. No atmosphere created by the stadium announcer who could do a lot more to generate atmosphere. Some clubs would die for the opportunity to be able to use a song like Monster with all the connections to Loch Ness but, as usual our off field performance is absymal. So much more could and should be done to encourage fans but the Marketing team seem clueless on how to do this.

Miss ICT, if you don't know the right answer, don't guess please. Show us a link to where it states he will not miss a league game.

No link but has been the rule for a few seasons now that suspensions are served in the appropriate competition with the xception where someone is sent off for violent play/conduct. It is my understanding that Lionel is not suspended for this Saturday.

Possibly, but it may be the case that the manager is looking for players with a bit more physical presence for the fight. Vigurs' neat football may have to wait til next season.

I think that is the answer in a nutshell. Vigurs is not yet ready for the physical battles that lie ahead to save our season. I think he has played best when the matches have not been too physical as he does tend to go missing when this happens.

I was never a massive Robbo fan either. I remember the team put on a fantastic performance in his first game at Love St but as a rule it was pretty dire stuff after Pele. Even beating Celtic at TCS, we were dire to watch (but maybe we were just spoiled). But those days seem like a dream now.

To use a cliche, I'd take winning ugly right now as all we're doing is losing ugly.

Like many on this thread, I don't think Robbo is the saviour that he is painted as by many fans. If we have learnt anything from the Brewster debacle, it is that you should never go back in fottball. A new manager should have been appointed at the time instead of Brewster and a fresh face is needed now to change things. Don't recall the team playing silky attractive football with Robbo in charge anymore than they have done with Brewster. Robbo is not the man for the job in my opinion.

Aye once again a shocking display... then followed by a bullsh*t excuse. I've said for weeks now there has been no apology to the fans, and AGAIN today Brewster showed how much he gave a toss for any of us (and even more so the people who sat through it, I didn't as I was at work) ****** to the full extent Brewster. I can't stand his lack of acknoledgement to the fans except for the odd "boo hoo the fans aren't getting behind us and thats why we're losing :thumb04: " crap

As usual some hysterical posts here concerning the actual performance, some only from listening to the radio commentary. I would not take Scott Davie's or Brian Irvine's opinions no matter what.

From someone who was at the game, and I know we all have different opinions, here are my views.

Team was certainly up for it today but losing that first goal was crucial. Not convinced it was a free kick and certainly ref let similar challenges go. Nothing could be done about the free kick though. Team tried to fight back and, despite what has been said, Garry Wood had his best game for a while and took the game to Aberdeen. As for some comments about not being able to jump, hard to do so when Diamond was all over him and Wood got very little help from the ref.I genuinely thought team played okay until the third goal went in and then heads went down understandably. Two of the Aberdeen goals came from mistakes by our players, not from anything Aberdeen created and had we been able to get a goal back at 0-1 or 0-2, we would have been in with a shout. Luck as deserted us though as ball keeps getting scrambled away on the goal line and we should have had a penalty which the clueless ref waved away.

That is the positive side. However there are also negatives. The lack of substitutes was baffling. After his mistake, Imrie's confidence was clearly shot and he should have been replaced. Richard Hastings also had a nightmare, his fault for one of the goals and almost lost us another in similar circumstances. He needs to be left out for a few games.

The team badly needs a confidence boost and they can only do that themselves by somehow winning or scoring and not losing. Brewster cannot give them that but tactically he could do more. Unfortunately, I don't think he has it in him to do that so he has to go.

Our league position has hovered around 8th position for a good few years now and we're STILL there. I think non-ICT folk would laugh at the fact that ICT fans want Brewster out.

Oh man, where are the ostrich smilies. We are currently 10th, we were 9th the season before, 8th the season before that and 7th the season before that ... can you not see the progression? Can you not see the excuses? can you not see he himself is now basically sticking two fingers up at the fans with comments like "The people in the crowd can make their own decisions, I am the manager and i've got to make the decisions for what I see best"?

I don't understand why some people can't see their on a down hill slope when they start moving faster

I, for one, was not one of the anti Brewster section and was prepared to give him a chance for various reasons. These included the biggest rebuilding job on the team since Pele took over and the fact that younger players were at last being blooded. He also seemed to be gaining in experience with the use of his substitutes and was showing more passion than previously. However..........along came Saturday's game. It was obvious from 5 minutes in that Duff was struggling at right back and should have been swapped with Proctor. It was also obvious that Barrowman cannot play the lone striker role so why oh why was he played there. Subs should have been made earlier than they were and we should have had a real go much earlier after we had gone behind. To cap it all, Brewster and Thompson stood looking as they were totally lost as to what they could do and really looked like they had given up. There main function seemed to be to clap their hands and encourage the team!.

I now think he has to go as he seemed disinterested for the first time this season at home. Maybe he knows if he doesn't get results, he will be sacked. I sincerely wish him well if he does go but we need to make a change very soon. As for our DOF talking about offering Brewster a new contract, if that is the calibre of our DOF, then he needs to follow him out the door as well. Mind you it could be a case of the board/chairman publicly backing the manager and you know what usually happens after that!!

Like some of the previous posters, I am also bewildered at some of the comments made abour Brewster. There have been comments previously that he lacked passion but this season, I think there has been more passion from on on the touchline, possibly becuase his job is on the line. I sit behind the away dugout and if Bronson thinks Brewsters commenst will have a negative impact on the players, he should have heard what John Hughes was shouting at some of his. I don't think anyone here would object if John Hughes was our next manager so double standards again maybe when it comes to Brewster.

Don't get me wrong, if results do not improve, then the decision will have to be made, at the end of the season if we are not in relegation danger, other wise sooner, who we replace Brewster with but let's be honest, not exactly a lot of candidates out there.

One final point on some commenst about how we are playing especially at home. I've been to all the home games apart from the St Mirren game. Other than the Hamilton game, where don't think we created a chance, there have been good spells in most games and luck has certainly not gone our way. A couple of breaks and we would be in a much better position. Yes we have not played flowing attacking football but have we ever in the SPL - what do people expect (and by the way, for those calling for John Robertson to return, don't really recall his side playing any differently in the SPL). However, if we can stay up this season, 3 or 4 youngsters will have gained much needed SPL experience which will help hugely next season. Whether Brester will be there, we will find out in the coming months.

I would like to make my position clear on brewster. I am not jumping on a bandwagon because of results not going our way. I simply didnt want the guy back after he contradicted himself and walked out on us the last time. I have not been to a single game since he took over, and plan to continue my stance as long as he is at the helm. So thats two games this week i would have otherwise been at.

Smee, - fair play that you have consistently stuck to your guns on Brewster but why not attending a game since he took over?. Supporters should first and foremost support the team and by your actions, don't think you are doing that. Protest against Brewster as much as you like, as is your right but attending the stadium to support the team would be so much better.

Im not the one to normally say this but:

I think Bush has posted some very good posts in this topic as it is apparent that no matter what brewster does, some fans want him out regardless. A pont that has been missed, may have been raised in other threads, is that this season has seen the biggest change/turnover in our squad since Pele took over when we were in the third division. This is undoubtedly having an impact as these players get to know each other. At long last however, we are also starting to produce youngsters capable of playing in the SPL which is the future for us.

When playing young players, you will get inconsistent performances and allowances have to be made for this although not by some on this forum it appears.

Finally, remember football is a results business. If we played wonderful attacking football but lost every game or got relegated, then I would not be happy. The priority has to be results with hopefully the good football follwoing on after that. For those who say they would rather watch entertaining football and never mind the results, time to come into the real world.

There are a lot of posts, on this topic, and many others where things are hinted at concerning the problems behind the scenes etc but as yet, I have not seen anyone spell out exactly what the issues are. If someone has information or knowledge of the conflicts going on behind the scenes, spit them out and we can have a real open and honest debate.

I don't want to see this club go the way of other clubs like Livingston/Gretna/Partick Thistle etc and the constant whinging from some contributors on this site, no matter how well we do, is getting me annoyed.

Without doubt, the club's marketing/PR/PA systen could be drastically improved but this all seems an afterthought for the club and the invisible board.

So come on, whoever knows what is going on behind the scenes, spill the beans, and if the board need to be reminded of their duties, then I for one am happy to support that.

I agree with some posters that the reaction by some people has gone way over the top to yesterdays game. As for people saying Falkirk were the better side, get real. Yes they passed it about all day but didn't really create anything and this game was heading for a 0-0 until we lost the ball in midfield, it fell to Latapy and he did the rest. Latapy was the reason Falkirk won, pure and simple as he did not waste a ball in the time he was on. The best football, of which there was not much, and this is similar to the Hearts game, was played by ICT but if you don't score goals you don't win games and that is where we need to improve hugely.

We need a creative player badly to spark things up and wothout Rankin and Wilson, don't know where this will come from. Our midfiled sits far too deep and rarely supports the front players effectively, something that the coaching staff need to sort out.

Finally, other posters keep alluding to internal issues at the club, can somebody spell out exactly what are the problems, if they know, or is this just gossip.

IHE, more like "What Board". We never here from the Board on any subject and for me, they are not trying to push the club to be more successful. Some of them are in their own cosy little world where they think they are important but I don't see the same passion, or any passion, from the board to take the club forward.

maybe this is getting through to the players?

I have to admit that i didn't want Brewster as a manager, not for walking out to go to Dundee Utd but I don't think he has what it takes as a manager and certainly he doesn't appear to have a clue about tactics.

I don't know if he got the job through being someone's golfing buddy but he's here now and he has to be given the chance to prove himself until the end of the season. Changing manger now is pointless but a difficult decision may have to be made come next May.

This was always going to be a difficult season for ICT after two seasons where we established ourselves in the SPL. This was the season that we should have cleared out certain players who were not going to take the club any further and try to replace them with better players. This hasn't happened but will need to happen for next season. Some of the players I am thinking about are Bayne, McCaffreyand Black (who is so overated by some people on this site, one good game every ten, if that is not good enough for me)