Oddquine

In order to do this, The Real SPL will run a virtual league in parallel with the SPL from seasons 2011/12 onwards. We will allocate points on the same basis as the SPL for games played but no points will be awarded when a team plays one of the Old Firm.

That's still excluding the OF.

You call yourself "The Real SPL" yet your entire idea/site is based around pretending two teams just don't exist...is that meant to be some kind of irony and I'm somehow missing the punchline?

The foundations upon which it is set will only serve to give the powers that be something else to use to undermine the word of the fans and anyone who tries to give it any kind of legitimacy will only serve to do more harm than good.

By all means, have your fantasy league. On that basis I think it will draw interest in terms of curiosity or novel distraction, but it is certainly not an idea on which to base any kind of serious campaign.

What Scottish football needs right now is for people to be putting their time and effort into campaigning for proper workable ideas and solutions to the problems being faced....a league without the OF is about as far removed from that as you can get right now.

Oh dear this has struck a raw nerve for some reason. Don't think the people behind this website are under any illusions that it IS just a fantasy league. What's wrong with that?

If it is a campaign it seems to me to be merely about trying to highlight the fact that the OF are not the be all and end all of Scottish football.

Presumably you think it's ok that Rangers and Celtic have constantly agitated to leave the SPL for well over a decade now, and no doubt would have already gone if anybody had actually wanted them. Such actions have undermined the viability of the SPL far more than publicising a league table without them in it would do.

Certainly I was aware on clicking the like button that it was a virtual fantasy league. Virtual because they said as much and fantasy because the OF are still taking part in Scottish football and are not going to disappear any time soon. I like it because it will be interesting to see what the positions of the various clubs in a league without the OF would be......and it saves me having to work it out for myself.

In response to CaleyD....what has happened to date, bar the putting off of a vote until they think they can get the result they want, makes you even contemplate that the powers-that-be in the SPL are listening to or even interested in proper workable ideas and solutions to the problems being faced?

All for it! Anyhting that diverts attention away from the Old Firm is to be applauded. Incidentally over 11,000 at Dunfermline V Raith yesterday fans WILL turn out for competitive meaningful football whether the OF are involved or not.

The other 10 teams in the SPL, excluding the Edinburgh derby, get their biggest home crowds against the OF so they really do have a massive influence on the amount of people that watch and attend scottish football games. Without them every other SPL team would get less people through the door, hence less money - we do benefit from their inclusion in the SPL so don't really get what this site is all about?

And if the SPL was a level playing field, and the OF were treated in exactly the same way as every other team, are you telling me that all their fans will stop supporting them, nobody will ever go to their games and the telly won't want to have them on it?

And do they not also benefit from their inclusion in the SPL.............or do you know offhand anywhere else in the world jumping up and down to have them play in their leagues? At least in the SPL they are getting a game.

That attitude is the one the OF relies on to maintain their position as the clubs who dictate to the SPL ......and there are far too many fans who believe the OF's PR.

I'll be voting SNP for both.....and am swithering about just leaving the Status Quo/AV vote blank., because neither is democratic.......but then I think that if I go for AV, I have no need to vote for anyone other than SNP on it if it comes in anyway. Nobody can force me to write 2,3,etc in other wee boxes.

Still thinking about that.. My SNP vote is the same no-brainer it has been since I was old enough to vote....and I do vote on the independence issue only.

BBC reporting that it is likely that the vote is cancelled re reconstruction due to not having enough support to get it through. Lobbying clubs to change their minds will continue however. :irritated:

BBC reporting that Annabel Goldie has cancelled the Scottish Election on May 5th due to not having enough support to become First Minister. Lobbying the electorate to change their minds will continue however.

ROFLMAO! Bet they would if they could! At least Doncaster doesn't expect them to vote interminably until they get it right, like the EU does!

But I have to agrre with CaleyD......sensible ideas are sensible ideas which should not require the additional and compulsory acceptance of a ludicrous and previously proven bad idea to be put into effect.. Smacks of blackmail, imo.

And it begs the question....is Scottish football run mainly for the benefit of the investors in Rangers and Celtic...and other "top" teams which think they, like the banks, "are too big to fail", even if they have been playing silly buggers with their finances.......rather than for the good of Scottish Football as a whole......because that is definitely the impression being given.

I accept that clubs can (and do) ring-fence funds coming from external sources for things like the footballing debt and giving the business a boost post administration, but I think Dundee could find themselves on a very sticky wicket when it comes to setting aside money that the business itself has produced....time will tell whether or not it is allowed, but you can be sure that if it was an individual who was facing bankruptcy then the system doesn't allow them ANY control over their spare income, certainly not in terms of picking and choosing who they pay and who they don't. It also wouldn't allow them to pay off their mortgage to the tune of 6p in the £ and remain in the property, which is what seems to be the case with the Sandeman "debt".

Hadn't read the 200% piece until today and have to say I find articles like that a little unfortunate. As you say, some valid points raised by the author, but I think he ties himself up a little and loses the point/impact of the article by allowing it to become long winded...which inevitably leaves it open to some inaccuracies and gives people an easy excuse to dismiss everything he says as a result. It's one thing to discuss and debate these things on a forum, quite another to take a position of authority and set them out there in an article or statement.

Not sure you can so easily separate the legal and moral arguments either. I know I could never support something which went against my morals, no matter how legal they are/were....and I think my many protestations in regards the actions of ICT on certain matters over the years stands as testament to that. The reverse of that being that I could probably be more accepting of an illegal action if it was done for moral reasons.

It's perhaps taking it a bit far to suggest the administrators at Dundee have done anything "illegal" as everything is out there to be seen by those who need to see it, probably fairer to look at it from the point of them testing the limits and seeing how much they can get away with. Whether or not that turns out to be acceptable in the eyes of the law and legislation isn't much of a factor in my thinking, I'm more concerned that their actions are simply serving to demonstrate to others how the system can be worked and, what should be considered suicidal financial risk. isn't actually all that risky when you can just write of millions of debt and continue as normal when it all goes wrong.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of saint and I can push my luck and test the limits with the best of them, but I like to think that my actions are guided by a fairly sensible moral compass and that I would draw the line at doing anything which would have any far reaching consequences for people other than myself.....but then again, people might just think I'm full of ****!!!

I'm one who doesn't think you are full of sh1t, CaleyD...as you might notice from some of your post reps. I am very much of the same opinion as you.

It seems to me that the Dundee fans have the same arrogant mindset as our banking institutions have had ... ie...."we are too big and important to fail" ....so we don't have to do the moral thing.just the thing which ensures we can still exist and profit. So bankers pushed the envelope well past the level which is acceptable to the average citizen, if not the Government.......just as Dundee FC has pushed it past what is acceptable to the average football punter if not the SFA.. Nothing to do, really, as to rivalry.......just as to what is right, fair and equitable as perceived by those who have been there....and those who may well be there in the future. The only teams who have been there are Livingston and Gretna...everybody else has not yet achieved the status of living well outside their means....TWICE.......and are prepared to accept the same sanctions as Dundee FC if they were so monumentally stupid to do so in their future..

As an ICT supporter, though admittedly not one who injects much into the ICT income due to distance from Inverness, I would be sickened past redemption if ICT were to trash the incomes of 116 other individual people/companies (ignoring the government HMRC) to ensure ICT survived at the expense of 116 other entities with employees to be maintained.....because they have no other thought but as to how little they can get off with paying to creditors in order to ensure ICT's existence .....and the consequences to the employees of the 116 creditor comanies is nothing to do with them.

Sure, there is a difference between illegal and moral......but is it not a sign of our times that there is a difference between illegal and immoral?

<rant on>

Given that the current SPL set-up, mostly, bar the very odd most welcome bookies' aberration if you are inclined to bet on something such as ICT holding one or other of the OF to a draw, is the most mindbendingly boring set up in existence....what makes the SFA think that reducing the number of teams is the way to go....except to increase the take for the ten left....and to hell with every other team in Scottish football? Being cynical, I do wonder if the ten will be chosen on merit at the end of the season according to league placements if Aberdeen ends up 11th or twelfth or if they reserve the right to do picky and choosy depending on the wishes of the Central Belt Shoo-in clubs..

We can do logic and query whether 42 senior teams in four leagues with a few teams in a few of those leagues paying really relatively silly money to players, are sustainable at all in Scotland, even at the self-important level of Rangers and Celtic, with an average possible attendance, if every soul from babes in arms to old women on zimmers were to attend, of 123,000 per team, when you consider that England, without including the population of Wales could, using a whip, "encourage" nearly 560,000 punters of all ages to turn up and pay at the gate.

Or we can do realism..and acknowledge that the SPL is run by the OF for the OF...and the SFA does not have the backbone of an amoeba.

As a one-time...and long-time...Celtic Supporter, who has, over the years, gradually become more and more hacked off by the influence of the Old Firm on Scottish Football to its detriment, I think that it is well past time Rangers and Celtic were put in their place as one of many and not the be-all and end-all of Scottish football. After all, if the Engish Premiership don't want them, (and they don't appear to want them, despite pleading), what option do they have but play where they are...and in that case, why should they be any more favoured than any other club? How come Dundee went into administration with a lot less debt, while Rangers are still running, but not in official administration attracting penalties....but bank administration just the same. The difference in pure chancer level is what, exactly?

The OF may have been giants in football terms at one time...but no longer...and why on earth should the SFA kowtow to their image of themselves as the most important clubs in Scotland when the only reason they are the best is because they, unlike other teams don't have to live in the real world because there is always someone prepared to make allowances for them..and because there is a plethora (and I admit I was once one of them) of punters who do glory rather than football? I always remember the Lisbon Lions of 1967, when every player was born within 30 miles of Glasgow.......and looking at the Ne-erday team of this year, I was struggling very hard to find a Scotsman in the named squad and bench of either team.

And, in the end, that is not good for Scottish International football...because I am not convinced that every Scottish kid taken up and then let go by the OF is crap....but there is a tendency for the SFA to assume that if they don't play in the SPL/English Premiership after 19 they are not worth looking at....and it is a laughable situation that those scouts paid (I assume) big bucks by the SFA to find suitable Scotland contenders appear to wait for coaches to point them at kids outside the incestuous Central Belt, rather than turning up at games all over the country and actually doing the job for which they are paid.

Scottish Football, a bit like Politics, is a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" set up, and, while I have always hated Quangos with a passion....Scottish football is one place where a Quango of punters, rather than CEOs may just inject an element of realism into the irrationality of Club owners looking to add money to their back pockets by reducing the options so less clubs are getting a share of the available pot.

I'd much rather have a Scotland team of Scots doing relatively well in World football than an SPL team, in which you can count the Scots on two or three fingers, taking every European title in the firmament......but then, maybe I'm weird.

</rant off>

No one spoiled it for Roy.

And you know that how, pray tell?

I don't quite understand the mentality of folk who trundle along to someone else's party and proceed to trash the personally invited guests doing the party giver a favour..

Everyone, as far as I can see, knew Brewster would be playing at some stage so if they had a problem with that.why go at all?

I'm beginning to think that football fans, after a year and a half on this forum, are the most irrational and nastiest people in the universe.

I think someone has someting againts me here

I was complementing the boy!

Do you think.on an ICT fans forum that I don't think he'll be at ict much longer. is going to get you approval ratings?

As far as I know, those who could have played u-17 this season yet have been signed on contracts to ICT for two years...as opposed to those u-18s signings who have only a year to show their ability to attract a contract for next season.....and those who will be out of the u-19 criteria at re-signing time at the end of this season with no sure prospect of being picked up by anybody .

He may well not stay...but he is here until the end of next season. What he does after that will depend on whether he wants to have the kudos of signing for a big club to sit on benches, or be sold on... or get games with ICT..

Seems to me, given Terry Butcher's "if he is good enough he is old enough" philosophy as illustrated by Nick Ross et al , current youth signings at any level, i f they want to play and be noticed should be sticking with ICT and not joining the Rangers/Celtic/Teams down in England treadmill which mostly exist to produce players with their brand to make them more saleable on the football market.Let's get real.........many big clubs don't take on youth players with a view to anything other than making profit from them and stopping them playing for their rivals.

Cynical re the way football as a business works....I most definiely am!

They won 2-1 v. USA. No idea if Liam had any game time though...

SFA Link

Edit: He played the full 90mins SFA link

I think he's played the full game in a fair few outings now. Well done to him.

Dwight Eisenhower

No one can defeat us unless we first defeat ourselves.

From a professional, psychological position I would have to say that there is a winning and a losing attitude/mentality and it is essential that the former rather than the latter is firmly embedded in the psyche of ICT yoof - and the development and installation of such "thinking" is clearly the responsibility of the coaches.

Don't be disquieted in time of adversity. Be firm with dignity and self-reliant with vigor.

Chiang Kai-Shek

Yes and no, IHE.

Coaches aren't sports psychologists and don't have the expertise to embed anything into the psyche of players. That isn't their job.

All coaches are trained to do, at whatever inflated level they reach re coaching (note, not psychologist) qualifications, is to teach techniques, encourage fitness, practise set pieces, come up with tactics for games and promote team cohesion etc. They are not trained to sort out the way individual players think. They are trained to work with a body and a brain which is confident in their abilities....and the assumption made by coaches is that every body carries a brain which will respond to a generally applied "you are the greatest so get out there and show them you are". But that is not necessarily useful if eight or nine team members buy it. but a couple of them don't.

You can only instill "thinking" into a team as a coach if all the members of that team think the same way, and you know they do. All a team needs to fall apart is one or two pivotal team members who do not have the techniques in place to stop their heads dropping when they make mistakes. Why on earth do you think that most professional clubs, in all sports, have sports psychologists on staff or at least on call?

You have a kid with excellent, even superb, technical skills, which if their heads worked as coaches expect, or they have had access to techniques to combat the way their minds worked in place, would produce a player who could be worth millions in this irrationally inflated current football market.

But if that kid currently lacks confidence in his own abilities to the extent that every mistake is more reason not to try for fear of making another mistake (and that is ignoring the outside pressure of the reactions of "fans" to inaccurate passes etc), .....or is such a perfectionist that he can't cope with making mistakes and his head drops because he is not managing to live up to his own high expectations..just what does anyone think a coach can do about it? Really?

Instilling confidence etc into young players, who could be very good and have the prospect of eventually becoming cash cows for a club, is not the responsibility of coaches except in their ability to recognise those exceptional players who, for whatever reason, have a mindset problem which detracts from their ability to perform as well as they could, because they are not trained to do that. All they should be trained to do is identify the good prospects with problems which can be dealt with by the appropriate help and point them in the direction of the club sports psychologist., if the club has one they can access. No idea if ICT has or not.

If you think about it., how often during England's performance in the last World Cup did the commentators and the media say that if Wayne Rooney, one single player, played crap the team would do nothing...and he did and they didn't. .And just what could the England coaches have done about it?

Good to see the U19's getting a result. So the problem against Keith FC was ATTITUDE. Sorry but the coaches need to take responsibility for this and it is about time the club spent some serious money and employed a suitably qualified coach who also has a playing pedigree.

Not really...They didn't play the best they could....but then Keith didn't let them. Is football not a game of two teams.....and not of one team standing there to allow the "better team" to score willy nilly?

Did Scotland have an attitude problem against Spain? Is it not about time Scotland spent some serious money and employed a suitably qualified coach who also has a playing pedigree?

I take it you are either the mother or girlfriend of one of our U19 squad and I can fully accept you want to defend his position. However, I cannot accept that a SHFL club have more talented players than us nor can I accept that they would be more tactically aware to enable them to "stop" us playing. Sorry, but our boys went out against Keith because they thought that they only had to turn up to win this tie. If the coaches had them mentally prepared (as they should be for ALL games) they should have won comfortably. If Keith FC had better players than ICT, then we don't have the right quality at the club. In either case, where would you lay the blame?

Why would you assume that.....I wish, but.it has been a lot of years since I was the mother or girlfriend of anyone under 19?

I was at the game because I rarely get down the road when there is a game of any kind at ICT, and I watch what I can access.

Did you actually attend the game, out of interest,.or are you just going by the mindset that "this club is not SPL so can't possibly have u-19s who can raise their game to beat a mostly u-17 squad"?

Logically, what you are saying is that every time ICT beats any club who would normally be expected to beat them, such as Celtic etc is because the other team has an attitude problem and not that the ICT players have raised their game? Try saying that to the ICT first team squad!.

Shucks, with "supporters" like you, who needs opponents/enemies?

Good to see the U19's getting a result. So the problem against Keith FC was ATTITUDE. Sorry but the coaches need to take responsibility for this and it is about time the club spent some serious money and employed a suitably qualified coach who also has a playing pedigree.

Not really...They didn't play the best they could....but then Keith didn't let them. Is football not a game of two teams.....and not of one team standing there to allow the "better team" to score willy nilly?

Did Scotland have an attitude problem against Spain? Is it not about time Scotland spent some serious money and employed a suitably qualified coach who also has a playing pedigree?

Hi Guys

my names Lee Mclennan and a run the Edinburgh and Livingston H.S.C

I would like to Apologise whole heartedly the way you were all treated at Easter Road i can assure you we are very angry as all we seen it as if you were trying to make an atmosphere, your lads and lassies done a fine job is getting a bit of an atmosphere going and it was outrageous as what our finest and stewarding have done to you.

I have a lot of respect for you guys coming all the way down to Edinburgh and watching your team full credit to you all and a hope you keep continuing to do so.

I have been treated fantastically when i come up to the Highland capital being welcomed to your supporters club for drinks and food. pitty our record is dreadful!!

but i would have expected the same treatment for all you guys so i will be chasing this up constantly will Hibernian our club and if you have any questions or comments please email me and a will let the club know of them lmc89@live.com

Stuff the Hertz on Saturday

Thanks Lee

Much appreciated, Lee. Thank you.

Dont agree to be perfectly honest! He's is definietly not ready to seriously compete at this level! Atm he is far too lightweight! Im not saying that he will be a bad player, he's defo one of our better prospects - maybe a low SPL, Top Division 1 player in the future but nothing more tbh!

Of course he isn't...he is only 18 and still learning.........and if it weren't for the fact that we have a small squad because of financial strictures...he wouldn't be seriously competing at this level..he would be sitting on the bench waiting until the game was won to get a go on the pitch at the tail end of the game........or getting games once the prospect of relegation was past, and gaining experience that way.

Unfortunately, ICT has limited options and has to make the best of what it has available to it..

Beats me how those of you trashing Nick Ross's ability are not out there managing SPL football clubs........because you obviously feel you have more ability to recognise a promising player than Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas....after only seeing him in three games, while they have watched him in training for the last year or more.

And it astounds me that you have the cringe factor to the extent that you will happily trash an 18 year old with three starts under his belt..when, from what I can make out......the only players who were rated better than him in the Courier were Esson, Proctor, Munro and Rooney. Anyone care to start a thread trashing Odiambo, Hayes, Duncan or Cox........who do have the experience....are less lightweight and who performed no better than Nick Ross.

No?

I thought not! :irritated:

I could have multi-tasked if I had had three phones and an extra hand.

The problem wasn't that I don't have an abundance of the stupendous female multi-tasking gene....but that I was at the end of the queue when the technology appreciation gene was being dished out!

For Oddquinne and anyone else who does not know how the sponsorship works (or at least our version) shares are up for grabs at £10 each and you can have as many or as few as you like.

Depending on how much we raise depends on what players we can sponsor. Costs as follows

Home shirt £350 + vat

Away shirt £250 + vat

Training £100 + vat

Gloves £100 + vat

Boots £100 + vat

At the moment we sponsor Grant Munro - Home and Lee Cox - Training but as we have had a tremendous response this year we will be able to do another one. Not sure yet whether it will be an Away Shirt or a Training top.

Then if there is any left over I usually manage to buy another shirt as an additional prize.

At the end of season names of all contributors are put into a draw for the relevent shirts or gifts.(If you take two shares then you name goes in twice and so on)

Hope this clarifies the position for anyone else who is interested but I do need to wrap this up within the next few weeks.

I'll dip my toe in the water this year with one, if that's OK.

Do I just hit the paypal link at the bottom of the OP.?

Thanks for your support - yes just follow the paypal link

Away to do it now!

Payment sent!

For Oddquinne and anyone else who does not know how the sponsorship works (or at least our version) shares are up for grabs at ?10 each and you can have as many or as few as you like.

Depending on how much we raise depends on what players we can sponsor. Costs as follows

Home shirt ?350 + vat

Away shirt ?250 + vat

Training ?100 + vat

Gloves ?100 + vat

Boots ?100 + vat

At the moment we sponsor Grant Munro - Home and Lee Cox - Training but as we have had a tremendous response this year we will be able to do another one. Not sure yet whether it will be an Away Shirt or a Training top.

Then if there is any left over I usually manage to buy another shirt as an additional prize.

At the end of season names of all contributors are put into a draw for the relevent shirts or gifts.(If you take two shares then you name goes in twice and so on)

Hope this clarifies the position for anyone else who is interested but I do need to wrap this up within the next few weeks.

I'll dip my toe in the water this year with one, if that's OK.

Do I just hit the paypal link at the bottom of the OP.?

You dont have to be a feckin nuclear scientist to realise that Oddquine was having a feckin bad week.

Not a bad week.........a bad evening. Had frozen my bahookey off at the match and missed large chunks of the game because moi......the slowest texter in the world.........was trying to update three different lots of punters all through the game.....and I hadn't worked out beforehand how to do forwarding....so it meant three separate texts every time!

As I was standing at the side of the ICT dugout........I don't know if the perpetual mobile phone ringing was irritating them as much as it was me as I tried to watch the game. .

By the time I got home, the mobile and me were not friends........in fact I had become quite abusive to it..........and RiG got the tail end of my wrath!

Being fairly new to the forum....and hence to the Sponsorship idea.......how does it work? Do you need 100 ?10 to sponsor Grant Munro fully.......or is it just a nice round number which would give you extra with which to do other useful ICT oriented things?

Do the red dots with no names appended mean that those shares have not yet been taken and are still free for others to take up?

And is there a time limit on getting involved?

Well said dear, but i have a slight feeling RIG was being sarcastic. I got a text off a Celtic fan at the end of the game laughing at me regarding this result and i more or less told him what you are telling RIG and i got a message back stating that "Wick train once a week, Caley every day" and i then told him that no matter how many times they train, experience will more often than not overcome youth and i haven't got a reply back from him, i suspect he has nae answer for that quote.

Realised that after I saw the remark about Gordon Chisholm.

I'm afraid I tend to go more with the smilies after remarks when I don't know the poster on forums.......plus the memories of other comments like that on here in the past, with as little cause.

Maybe a sarcastic smilie would be a good idea!, the Irritated one doesn't quite have the same effect.

Butcher must go! :irritated:

Are you mad or what? I seriously hope you jest!

His options were what, precisely?

I will repeat a post I made on the Peterhead thread..........Maybe so...but don't you think it would be just a leetle shade patronising to put the whole U-19 team in against Wick Academy in the NOS cup.given that with Gil and Foran still not fit, Innes not around and 16 penciled in for Peterhead.that leaves only four players who would get to rest anyway...........and there aren't enough u-19s to make up a team and fill the bench?

I doubt anyone is going to get a rest.

There was a choice to be made.and it was made....better to get to the next round of the CIS cup and possibly a chance of a big pay day, than the NOS cup, which will gain not a lot more than match practice.

And, tbh. Wick is a decent enough team.......play good passing football......and only the terminally over-optimistic would have expected the divine right of winning just because we are ICT.......when we had no option but to put boys in against men. The boys played well.....very well for chunks of time.....worked hard for each other. They missed a few chances......made a few mistakes.............as did Wick..but wick took their few chances, made less mistakes. .... but then they have the benefit of experience.

I think this midweek game would be a good opportunity to rest players and bringing some of the fringe players in for a game, I'd go with -

Tuffey

McCann Innes Munro

Hayes Cox Duncan McBain Shinnie

Rooney Sutherland

Subs - Esson, Odhiambo, Proctor, Gillet, Sanchez

Maybe so...but don't you think it would be just a leetle shade patronising to put the whole U-19 team in against Wick Academy in the NOS cup.given that with Gil and Foran still not fit, Innes not around and 16 penciled in for Peterhead.that leaves only four players who would get to rest anyway...........and there aren't enough u-19s to make up a team and fill the bench?

I doubt anyone is going to get a rest.

Rooney!!!!!!!!!!!! 2-0

Think this is one I might just manage to get to........if I can talk the only person I know with a car into a lift.

Buses are a pain in the bahookey if you live in the Caithness sticks!

Well done, lads. I hope you do yourselves (and the Club) proud. in Finland.....but as long as you give it your best shot, we can't ask for anything more.