Scotty

lets just be happy we are not Wigan fans !!! Spurs beat Wigan 9-1 today including 3 goals in the last 3 minutes of their game. Defoe got 5 of the Spurs goals !!!

definitely a game of two halves ..... having said that I am still enjoying it, just not the socreline.

Decide for yourselves .... Dundee physio and ICT physio

wonder where the Dundee physio is from ? She is too pretty to be from Dundee :angry:

I am thoroughly enjoying this game and hope there are some extremely positive threads started after the game. Radio commentators saying Inverness have been "magnificent" from the very first whistle and I cant disagree.

You can't beat a little bit of Bully :D Who threw all the pies :D Dundee fans throw their dinner at ICT players

keepers always get benefit of any doubt.

nice finish from Bulvitus - an excellent backheel but ref got it right for Rooney fouling Douglas.

Rooney, Rooney :D

Great to be able to see the action ;) very impressed with Hayes today so far Foran chance Dundee chance

Zattoo working ;)

.style2 {text-align: center;}.style3 {border-collapse: collapse;border-style: solid;border-width: 1px;}.style6 {border: 1px solid #FFFF99;text-align: center;}.style8 {text-align: center;border-style: solid;border-width: 0;}.style10 {color: #FFFF00}.style12 { font-size: 18pt; font-weight: bold;} THE MATCH Dundee -V- Inverness CT PREVIEW McDiarmid Park, Perth 3:00 PM ...follow us on Twitter @ http://twitter.com/ICTOnline or on Main Site Front Page ...discuss it during the game in the CHATROOM Live Match Coverage AUDIO: BBC Radio (available to UK/VPN listeners only) TV: Live on BBC Alba coverage begins at 2:50pm: ONLINE: I cant speak gaelic but it appears that it is not available live online via the BBC iplayer channel. However, UK viewers or those with a VPN service may be able to watch via the Zattoo media player TEXT UPDATES: BBC and Sportbox do not appear to have a live online text commentary for this game which leaves only SKY or of course our own TWITTER feed TEAM LINEUPS

lets stay on topic please.

no

I have no problem with the encouragement of the posters themselves .... the posts however would be subject to the same conditions as everyone else

self-abuse doesnt count :D

There needs to be a structure available to the moderators/admin to deal with those posters who dont adhere to the site rules. I think we have pretty much agreed to rework the current rules into a shorter set of "golden rules" and these will be in plain English. I have already borrowed Davie's "golden rule" suggestion and we will probably look to develop a structured system (i like the yellow/red card idea to keep it football related) so that people (and the mods) know what and where the boundaries are. Communication of this will be key. Any rules will deal more with conduct than content (other than the requisite reference to -isms or inappropriate material). I think I have made it plain that age will not be one of the criteria for exclusion and neither will IQ ... i think we can all be a bit of a "daftie" at times so we would have to exclude ourselves :004: That is a very interesting suggestion. not really sure what to say other than we might have to involuntarily do that anyway when we take the plunge and transfer the site from our current hosts (with all the downtime) and move it to our new hosts ... it will likely take a few days for the new address to resolve over the internet so the site would be inaccessible during that time

I will echo that. I did not like the comment and told you so, so fair play for having the balls to apologise.

I wouldnt say you have ruffled feathers Renegade, however I would agree that you have been the target of a good deal of abuse aimed squarely at you by certain other posters regardless of what you post and to be honest, at times I do admire your restraint as you have rarely if ever complained or stooped to the same level. It is this kind of abuse that we are sick and tired of and will get rid of one way or another. It doesnt matter if I (or anyone else) agree with your posts/opinions or not (most of the time I dont ) you are articulating them in a normal manner so there is no need or justification for the abuse that is posted in response. I am aware of several people who fit into the profile you have just described and again, it is evident that they are missing from this thread, presumably as I mentioned posts would be deleted or topic bans issued, so they know they cant get their jollies on here. I am not one to hold a grudge and there are many people on here who I have had ding-dong battles with over email or PM in the past but if you are participating in the forum and therefore adding value to it, any dispute is water under the bridge once it is resolved as far as i am concerned. However, as you described, if all someone wants to do is stir the pot, cause trouble or add absolutely nothing to the site other than abuse or a few sarcastic smilies, you will get short shrift on your way out. We have several tools in our arsenal including IP bans (both individual ips and ranges of IPs), username bans, email bans (individual and domain wide), proxy server bans etc. With respect to actually banning folk, one of the things I do take heart from in this thread is that although I freely admit (and have always admitted) that we as mods/admin do not always get it right, their does seem to be a greater willingness of some posters to accept that there are problem posters since I started this thread and that it is not always the mods who are the bad bar stewards. If the normal, decent posters on this site can and will work with the mods to weed out the problem posters then it will be a far better site for us all. Now I dont mean we all turn on the problem posters and abuse them, that would go against everything I have said up to now, however, one way that normal posters can help make it better is to try not to jump on the bandwagon that frequently develops when someone is warned or excluded. I have seen it all too often, we give someone a warning and the next thing we know there are snide comments about the mods being on power trips or personal comments about size, shape or attitude and then one by one others join in and we have a rapidly developing "us and them" situation. That puts more pressure on everyone, posters and mods alike, and it is then when posts that might be innocuous or "banter" on other days get misinterpreted or nitpicked as offensive, abusive or otherwise undesirable by mods and posters alike because everyone is looking for the hidden meaning or sub-current of abuse. As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, when the mods are back to defcon5 instead of defcon2 it is more relaxed for us all. If the mods are not under pressure from a barrage of complaints and people trying to get a reaction, things are more relaxed for us all and we are less likely to catch someone in the crossfire who doesnt deserve our wrath. In other words, if we can be a bit more self-moderating (without being abusive about it) perhaps we can benefit from seeing less official moderating. Agree about the anonymity comment and I have seen it on all sorts of boards not just this one. However, users who think there are no ramifications to what they post should perhaps think again and realise that in certain circumstances their anonymity is not assured. Although the data protection act means we do not give out user information to anyone, we can be requested or compelled to disclose information about members' accounts if the situation warrants it. The information we would have would be your username, email address and ip address(es) used to access the site on certain dates/times. If you are using a direct connection, the authorities then perform the same task with your Internet provider and can tie it down to exactly who you are based on which account connected and was issued that IP address at that time on that day. And dont think using a proxy helps much either. most proxy servers only disguise a portion of your web experience (eg port 80 for browser access). This is why for example things like the BBC geographic blocking is usually unaffected if you are using a proxy as other ports on your computer such as those used for real player or media player streams or for torrents are unaffected and still report the original IP. This is one of the ways that the movie and music business find people to make an example of in the torrent system. It is an extreme example, but it serves to show that you might be "anonymous" on the board but no matter how well you try to disguise yourself, you always leave some footprints. I also have to add that we also have a legal duty of care to remove anything that could be deemed unlawful, slanderous, libellous etc. Whilst it is unlikely that anyone would go after us for a poster making a post of this nature, it is not impossible and although the poster is ultimately liable for what they post, we can also be nailed if we allow the platform to be used as such. Its something that the lawyers drilled into us when we were part of the rivals network. Our site was never sued, but quite a few were !!!! Reading through this thread, I see the younger posters being blamed for a lot of the crap on the boards and whilst I would agree that this is true to an extent you cannot tar all the youngsters with that same brush. I would also say that stupidity, abuse and problem posting is definitely not the exclusive domain of the youngsters, especially some of the actions of certain posters that I regard as bullying and is focused AT the youngsters rather than being from them. I would resist any suggestion that restricts access to the youngsters as that does not send out much of a message to them. They already think they get a rough deal from certain club officials (or former officials) and now there are suggestions that we do the same. not going to happen. We might be old farts and not understand the youth of today as someone said but as far as I am concerned everyone is welcome on here regardless of age, sex, or even which team they support (eh Heilandee). The behaviour they exhibit will determine whether or not they are allowed to stay. I would also add that we have actually taken great pleasure on a few occasions recently in mentoring rather than punishing a few newer posters and their inital abraisiveness and "over-exuberance" has subsided and they are becoming valued posters who contribute to the discussions on the site. With regards to temporary bans, I think that is one tool in the arsenal that we have, we just need to make sure it is used fairly. From the discussions so far, I think the idea of "golden rules" is a good one and if we communicate that to everyone so they know where they stand, it can be effective. Block other users - as mentioned above, normal site users can already do that via your profile. One caveat is that you cannot block mods/admin and we cannot block anyone at all Finally on the "not posting" comment. I agree with you to an extent and I have talked with friends who read but dont post for the same reason. I will say the same to you as I say to them .... If you dont post because the views you are reading are negative and you feel positive or you see the extreme ones like a loss meaning a barrage of Butcher Out calls and you feel (like me) that it is at times a huge over-reaction, then by not posting you are only helping to perpetuate the problem. If we had a few more people expressing varied opinions then the discussion improves and becomes more balanced. I am hoping if we can get rid of the abuse and get back to discussion that some of those who are reticent to post might dip a toe in the water ! I dont think removing anonymity would be workable or manageable. Some people will always want to be anonymous and that is fine. If they want to hide behind that anonymity to perpetrate bullying, abuse etc then we will get rid of them using our new golden rules that users are shaping by posting in this thread. However one thing I can say about the next version of this forum software (which we are testing right now) is that it is very much more social network friendly. there are options to link your account to facebook, twitter can be accomodated and all sorts of other things so users who want to be more a part of the community on the site can certainly do so. Invitation only forums are something we may look at if we have to. In fact we already have a couple like that which you cannot see unless you have been a member of the Highland March team or a VPN subscriber. These are not based on being the "best posters" but are niche forums where specific things are discussed so of no interest to most posters unless they are involved in either venture. Another alternative is to look at how we "group" posters and make increased access available based on your group. For example everyone when they join currently goes into the "members" group and pretty much stays there forever unless they become a site sponsor (sponsor group) or a mod or admin (mod, senior mod, or admin groups). Site sponsors dont see any additional forums but Mods and Admin do have access to an area of the site where all complaints get discussed. Different groups can also have different permissions so perhaps there may be some validity in splitting the members grioup into a few others ... new members (where access to all the features is a little more limited and you maybe dont get to use a signature or avatar), then members (same as now) and then perhaps after a specific length of time (rather than posts or your age) you become a "member+" or something like that and are given extra permissions. One thing we wont do however is ever ask users to pay for access to our main football forums. Whilst we may consider adding additional "lounges" (or something like that) for a members+ group or for the sponsor group we will never force users to subscribe to access the main football forums. personally i think that idea could work, seperate the chaff from the decent posts in one click, if enough people block certain users they will get the message You can already block posters you dont want to read. However, I believe the new software also has an optional module we can add that will allow you to filter which forums and which topics you see in your new posts page. I will look into it. This will not be evident in this board but may be incorporated as/if/when we switch to V3 of this software. I think I covered the U18 stuff above. The rest is a hard one to legislate. I have no time for anyone who is prejudiced against someone because of race/religion/lifestyle etc but unfortunately they have the right to hold that opinion. How they express it however may lead to consequences. Given your geographical location, I am assuming you have many friends who are muslim and possibly jewish so you may be more aware of some of the more subtle references or passive aggressive BS that others might miss. I would suggest that in those instances you either PM the person, or bring it to the moderators attention using the report button. One of the great things about the city where I live is that it is one of the most multi-cultural in the world and one where these sorts of problems do not seem to be a major issue (not saying they dont exist though). I think I have friends that fall into each of the categories you mentioned above and although I can spot overt reactions to them based on colour/religion or lifestyle, it is the more subtle stuff that I as an agnostic white male do not always pick up on. Please feel free to point this out if you see it and it truly offends. As I mentioned above when talking of anonymity, the poster themself is ultimately responsible for the content of their post but we as a forum that provides them with a platform to express their opinion also have a legal duty of care to act responsibly and we can also be held accountable. I have no objection if we can get to the stage (as also mentioned earleir) where we do self moderate more as that would make all of our lives easier but as with everything else mentioned on this thread ... it needs buy-in from the site members to make it work. Age Issue - dealt with above Better Site - My biggest thing is for us to get rid of the abuse and get back to the roots of being a discussion forum. If users and mods/admin can work together to go down that road, better things will follow. Less abuse means less need for moderator intervention which in turn means mods are less likely to make mistakes in that moderation and people get less uptight or sensitive when something is moved/edited/deleted or when given a warning. To my mind it is all about changing a downward spiral where things are getting more and more out of sync into an upward spiral where things continue to improve to the point where we might just get some of the craic back. Editorial Team - yes, that is disappointing. One the one hand users tell us they want to have more input into the site and yet when we make that opportunity available we get a handful of volunteers and of those perhaps only 1 or 2 who submitted anything. We would like this to be a fan site by the fans and for the fans but that is unrealistic unless everyone works together. Our team was at its most effective when they all worked for each other ... the same is probably true of this site ! I dont think that is appropriate. It would be an abuse of Don's position as announcer. I would far rather that we worked with the club and got a mention for being one part of any joint venture we worked on with them. Think the club shop still have some caleythistleonline.com poly bags though Here's hoping it can change some things permanently ! I am sure there are more issues just around the corner somewhere but everything I have posted here is open and honest and if users can try to make this a better place we will try to do the same so that together we can take the forum forward. I am actually quite excited about the new version of the forum software as I think it has the potential to make this more of a community but to be honest, I havent bothered doing much with it yet as I have been feeling this way about the site. This thread IS proving to be somewhat cathartic but I still wonder about some of the posters who havent yet made a comment ... will they agree and help make it better? or will they carry on as normal and try to make our lives difficult? If they do the latter, will those who have made good and sensible comments on here (that we are listening to) point out the error of their ways (in a respectful fashion)? or will it all be hot air and BS and we will have another ****storm?

I like this idea RiG, how about expanding it to "Karma" points where users get a set amount of points, variable dependent on Karma level, with which they can add good or bad Karma to a poster. If a posters Karma was to reach a deplorably low level then their posting could be restricted in some manner. This could have the potential to lead to a more self policing community, someone posting a heap of rubbish constantly would soon learn that the community do not agree with his views. The biggest problem will be "enforcing" it and by that I mean how do we avoid one poster being picked on and lots of bad "reputation" / "karam" added which would end up in them not being able to post as freely as they would wise.That's the whole point I am trying to make RiG, if someone finds they are picked on then they have obviously done something to upset a section of the forum. If you were to implement a system where when Karma is added then a reason has to be given in a pop up box, similar to the search box, then someone who has been auto-restricted could then take their case to a mod, that mod could then remove any unjustified Karma and make a note of any system abuse. On the other hand though, if the mod finds the Karma adjustments justified then they only have to say so to the aggrieved party. This might seem like a work up for the mods but in practice it could reduce the need for the report button, if someone became abusive, for example, and took a lot of karma hits then the community have dealt with the problem and the moderating team save time debating the problem and dealing with the poster. The new version of the forum software has reputation points built in - I didnt intend to enable that but will look at how it works and see if it has merits, perhaps even try it for a while when we upgrade. I have never been much of a fan of Karma points on other forums and automating them to do what has been suggested may not be possible or desirable.

I actually quite like that idea .... a code of conduct with a clearly defined method of dealing with it in a uniquely football like way. We have already been called referees earlier in this thread so perhaps yellow/red cards (which I did use on here for a while) might be a novel (and dare I say it even fun) way to deal with things. Just so long as we are more Collina than Collum :) At the end of the day, mods dont go looking for a fight despite what some posters say ... they try to keep everyone more or less inside the rules. If these rules can be more clearly defined and users know the openalties then perhaps we will all be better placed to enjoy this forum. That is my major complaint and it is encouraging to see more people in here (and via PM) acknowledging the need to get back to a position where we discuss rather than argue and where it is about opinion rather than name calling or baiting. If we can get that in check then I think I can safely say that we will all be happier and the site will reflect that. It started well but after the initial enthusiasm had something like 5 posts in 3 months so was removed. I am trying to be constructive and to reverse the negativity. Naming and shaming would only add to the negativity so I will not be doing that. Besides, I have a feeling that those who are responsible for the current state of affairs are well aware of their roles and if you read the boards and take note of who is doing the arguing and name calling or who is adding nothing to the discussion other than crappy comments or digs at other posters it wont be hard to work out for yourselves ! I have stated my case, I have said we are happy to shake things up a bit in terms of rules or "code of conduct" as mentioned earlier in this response, and I have said in my initial post that how users deal with the rules is up to them. If someone who was formerly a rule breaker or abusive poster sees the light and decides to try and post within the rules and start helping everyone to enjoy the site again then great, if not, and they keep up the rule breaking then they will be gone, simple as that. I do agree with what you say here to a point. Yes we can be negative, yes we can question the club, yes we can feel let down by performances and we can express all of that. However, none of that negativity of opinion gives anyone the right to behave in an abusive, bullying, argumentative and immature fashion towards fellow fans and site users when they come on here. As I said in my post, if a user wants, or believes he/she has the right to behave like that then we quite simply do not want them as a member of this site. Its not quite that simple but in essence you are correct. Being one of those mentioned in your first paragraph, I have made posts before that could be deemed inappropriate and childish. Although most of these will likely be tongue in cheek (minus a smiley) or just plain humour to me, I do respect that others will have a different viewpoint to this, and have found myself apologising to Mods on occasion when I realise I've been guilty of breaking a forum rule in one way or another. Though I have had run ins with Mods before, I can honestly say I can't argue with any of the reasons I've had for Warning Level being increased, and would even say there have been times I've expected an increase, but Mods have looked over it. This is good how at times they will show a degree of leniency to users IMO. New users of all ages will join the site all the time, and it is important everyones points of view are respected and tolerated by posters. They do a thankless task, and for that I'm sure 99.999% of CTO users, myself included, are grateful, and hope they keep up the good work. Yes Kev, we have had the odd run-in with you and to be honest, if we have the odd run-in with posters here and there it is not a problem, we deal with it, talk to the poster, and move on. If everyone got out of line just once in a while we probably would overlook more than we do ... we'd be at DEFCON5 instead of DEFCON2 most of the time and things would get more and more relaxed over time as users knew the limits and played within them. However the reality is that there are some posters on here who take a perverse pleasure in making things extremely difficult for the moderators either directly or by following a pattern of abuse/baiting/name-calling etc. With these posters, disruption seems to be their mission on the site moreso than actually reading the posts and participating in discussions. These are the posters I dont want on the site, these are the posters who will have to change or move on once we agree a new "code of conduct" [nice one Davie - liking that expression more and more as I type this reply]. I know some of you will guess at who I am meaning and once again I am not going to go "naming and shaming", I will however say that the people I have in mind in this statement are conspicuosly absent from this thread so far :32:

:D

I believe we have an excellent mod team already and as stated in my first post, I can attest to the fact that we hold a wide variety of views on most subjects. We have had to deal with a lot of nonsense in the recent past and I dont think it is breaking any mod confidences to say that many of our discussions have seen different mods express opinions at each end of the scale. However, if there is a stand-out candidate who would bring something to the table then I/we am/are all ears. Thats not why we removed the official tag but thats another debate entirely. Regarding posts you consider as banter. You and I have had enough back and forth discussions in private and public over the last few months that we both know what one thinks is banter another may think is abuse and vice versa. The mods dont like making work for themselves and we can all do without the hassle but one thing that seems to get forgotten in all of this ..... at the end of the day we are just trying to apply the rules that have been written and that every user has agreed to, it is not personal. Do we always get it right? no of course we dont, but we aint trying to make life difficult for me, you or anyone else. A quiet life and some banter will do for me ... but it has to be within certain boundaries. As a few folk have talked about the P&B complaint forum I will take a look at it - I dont go on P&B much of my own volition these days, usually only on there when someone tells me there is something mentioned about CTO !!! Without looking, I can tell you I am not a fan of the idea as presented in this thread as some people do not want to make public complaints and not all moderation needs to be done in public .... but I will take a look before forming a proper opinion. It would certainly be something for the mods to discuss. I would love it to be about the banter, I guarantee you that if it was everyone would be happier but to be quite frank, the warning system does not deter people right now so I dont see how that would change. Having said that, lets not get dragged down a side street oin this discussion. As posted above, we will look at this suggestion and see if we believe it has any merit on here. Bingo ! Thats pretty much what I said in my initial post !! It should be about the discussion, I agree 100% but all to often it is NOT about the discussion, it is about pedantic point scoring or one-upmanship or abuse or bullying and when a quick word in the ear doesnt work and warnings are handed out all hell breaks loose. Interesting. I assume this would be in an effort to stop people trying to increase their post count with bull**** posts ? If there is no post count then there is no competition? That would indeed be possible. I don't see a problem in someone saying "I find X post unacceptable for Y reason" a short discussion on whether that post is or is not offensive would happen, anyone abusing the complaints forum would have their rights to that forum removed and this would take away the stigma of posting your complaint allowing the membership more say in what is and is not acceptable. This system also lets the moderators get a feel of how the community feel about certain issues, removing them from the bubble of the moderators forum and bringing them closer to the rest of us. EDIT- I never addressed the issue of agreement, the point of the forum would be for the mods to get a feel of how issues are seen so at the end of the day they can make a more informed decision, not to allow the lunatics to take over the asylum, the mods decision would be final regardless and we would have a chance to make our case. This is what already happens between the mods when a post is reported or when a mod highlights it as going against site rules in some way. The downsides described are pretty much as I imagined. However, as noted above I think we should at least look at it and then decide. I have lost count of the number of times people have complained about the word "feck" but if its good enough for Father Jack You can still use it so that answers that query I think. I think you are correct. I think this echoes a PM I was sent earlier by another user who likened us all to a big family arguing when things got on top of us. As I said above, and I have always said ...... do we always get it right? No we dont, but we do try our best. Also we are human and it is inevitable that emotions get involved. That is another reason for having a "team" of moderators .... Whilst a decision to edit, merge or move a post or to issue a low level warning may be made by any moderator, major moderation decisions are discussed and made by the team, not by an individual moderator I can assure you it is no "cry for help" and it is no "mid life crisis", it is quite simply what I would call "Popeye Time" ..... basically, "I have had enough and cant stands no more" [apologies to the "yoof" who will likely not have a clue what I am on about]. At the end of the day, I am spending way too much time on the admin of this site when I should be getting the craic on the boards, when we should all be getting the craic on the boards. It has long since ceased to be fun and started to become a chore quite some time ago. I let that slide for a while but not any more. We need to sort it out so we can get back to the banter. If that cant happen then I need to have a good long hard think about where things go from here.

could I just add - please also dont quote my initial post in your reply ... it is a long post and the thread will be massive if everyone quotes it. either quote from it selectively or not at all. cheers.