alternative maryhill

Sounded like a cracker from Davis.

Sutherland for Ross and an almost entirely new defensive line-up? Interesting. Must say I'd have liked to have seen Cox back in, maybe for A Shinnie, and Tansey pushed further forward, but at least he's trying something a bit different. Come on ICT.

Alistair Darling and Jim Leishman dream team lined up to replace Terry and Mo.

Perhaps Grant Munro and Russel Duncan would have something to say about that ? I'm sure they would, and the way they were got rid of still upsets me, but I was referring to players still at the club. I've no idea at all how the manager is perceived by the players: I just haven't heard any of the sorts of stories that had begun to circulate about Brewster by this sort of time in 2008.

Much of this is true, but one difference (I think, anyway) is that to all appearances Brewster had lost the dressing room; or a large part of it at least. There were a lot of stories of excessive fining for petty misdemeanours, and of the assistant manager being widely resented. There's no evidence yet of Butcher having lost the respect or confidence of the players: if that was to happen, then maybe then it would be time to think about changing. I also think Butcher is more likely to accept responsibility himself than Brewster was: he's never shied away from making line-up changes or dropping or releasing players that he brought into the team. The biggest problem is that this is probably a poorer squad than the one Brewster had at the start of 2008-09, and for that Butcher must take some of the blame.

A relegation battle can be terrifically exciting! Being rooted to the bottom with several games to go with no hope of survival would be less exciting, however. I just don't agree with your original point though. I think it's pretty obvious that Butcher has made some errors of judgement and that some of the new signings aren't quite cutting it, but sacking him would be no more than punishing him for these mistakes: what manager is going to come in and miraculously get this squad to start winning, bearing in mind that there would probably be limited money available for new signings in the transfer window and few players of sufficient quality willing to come to ICT? We know Butcher is a good motivator and also not afraid to make difficult decisions, and his first two-and-half seasons contained more positives than negatives, even though he didn't manage to keep us up. This season, so far, it doesn't seem to be working: some of the reasons might have been within Butcher's control, others clearly weren't. But how many teams in recent times have seen great success by panicking and punting the manager too early?

I think you're probably right. I'm also not sure who would replace him if he was to be dropped. He was certainly poor yesterday, and hasn't looked great all season, but to be honest, I don't think we had a single performer who looked good yesterday. Tade had the poorest game I've seen him have, Andrew Shinnie, who by all accounts had a good game two weeks ago, was completely ineffectual again, Ross, playing wide, was marginalised and while Davis and Tansey looked fine knocking the ball around in midfield, neither was able to find passes that would open St Johnstone up; although they weren't helped by the movement of the players ahead of them. All this without mentioning a central defence made up of two non-central defenders (I just don't accept that Tokely is a natural centre half). Graeme Shinnie probably looked our best player again, and unfortunately a left back will never be able to carry a struggling team. I wasn't at either of our wins this season so my view is probably jaundiced, but on the basis of the four defeats and one draw I've witnessed I think there's every chance that we will go down. This is not to say that I think Butcher should be removed, by the way: on the contrary, I think there are very strong arguments for keeping him even if we are relegated. But we've got to accept that something isn't working this season, and even when Hayes and Cox return, I think we're going to struggle because of the lack of a goalscorer and the fragility in defence. The game against Dunfermline next week has probably come at the right time: hopefully there will be a strong reaction from the management and the players to yesterday's performance, and despite our limitations we might have enough to beat a team that seems to be struggling a bit to make the step up to the SPL. If we lose that, though, then things will look very bleak.

I think that it was inevitable this would happen eventually: we couldn't prevent the loss of players such as Cowie, Black and Rooney, the likes of McBain and Golabek were coming to the ends of their playing careers and for whatever reason, the club hasn't been able to bring through enough young players of quality to provide the spine for a new ICT - although it's arguable that none of our managers has given enough of a chance to homegrown players. It is clear, though, that getting rid of Duncan and especially Munro was a big mistake, just as many of us predicted it would prove to be. I'm not sure that either would have made much difference to yesterday's result, mind you: the biggest problem was a lack of service to the forwards and a lack of ability by the forwards to do anything with the ball when they had it.

Hi Laurence, Just a couple of points that I think are worth discussing: This point is counter-productive to any argument you are trying to make. Firstly, Alex Ferguson has admitted he was entirely wrong to attack his players after that game, that he apologised to them the following day, and that it caused lasting damage to his relationships with some (including Gordon Strachan, who spent much of the following season trying to engineer a move). Secondly, this was in 1983, when clubs had far more power over player contracts and movement than they do today. Ferguson has also suggested that even if he was still so inclined, to be as harsh in his criticisms of his players as he once was would probably alienate more than it would motivate. As for the 'New England' manager, if you mean the coach of the English national team, Fabio Capello, then the jury is still firmly out on whether he is capable of picking or motivating a team capable of justifying England's FIFA ranking: the 2010 World Cup would suggest not. If you are actually referring to the manager of a US team based in New England, then apologies; but that still wouldn't be a very convincing argument. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but aren't you aware that the tone you often adopt towards your fellow posters and the generalisations you make about ICT supporters actually amount to personal attacks? In the thread 'ICT's performance this season' that you began in February of this year and dredged up again with this season barely a week old, you referred to our supporters as 'the worst you'd ever seen' and 'incapable of understanding what is going on'. What are these if not personal attacks, as they implicitly include the season-ticket holding posters on here, some of whom come on week after week and write about the team's performance and the support with great knowledge, perception and, if necessary, measured criticism? If you have 'been around' as long as you say you have, then surely your life experience has taught you something about tact, respect for others, and avoiding crass generalisations?

IIRC, Golobart had been on the park for about a minute when Ledley scored. I'd need to see them again to be sure, but I don't recall Golobart looking at fault for either goal. He looked fairly solid yesterday, but then Celtic really didn't create much after they'd scored their second.

Ah. Think my phone needs charging. 11 o'clock is going to be a bit early for me, I think - I have a stack of work to get through in the morning. Will need to join you a little later in bandit country.

What's the script for tomorrow then, troops?

I agree with this: unfortunately, however, this is already such an issue at the school I work at that any more lost days would be a worry. As well as the University and field trips, we also have these residential spiritual retreats that the majority (but not all) of the kids go to every year. I appreciate that these are an important part of the school's life, but it does put additional pressure on teaching time: we've been back little more than a month and I've already lost six teaching periods with about 70% of my fourth year class. If strikes did occur, then my Advanced Higher kids are such a conscientious bunch that I'm pretty sure I could continue classes with them remotely via Moodle; but I'm not sure I could say the same about most of my fourth years, or even my Higher pupils, bright kids though they are Absolutely. The amount of time and money that must have been put into packaging this and delivering CPD on it and so on, and it still just looks like a bunch of nebulous platitudes being pedalled as some great innovation, and pretty patronising to teachers who have long recognised the value of making lessons relevant to the pupils' experiences in society and in varying teaching approaches and getting the kids working together.

I also really, really hope this doesn't happen. It has been threatened a few times in recent years, but thankfully hasn't come to anything. I am a member of a union and fully believe in the principle of unions, but I would hate to be put in a position where I had to decide whther or not to strike. I wouldn't want to be seen as a scab, but at the same time I would find it incredibly difficult to live with myself if any of my pupils' exam results suffered as a consequence of my being on strike.

Great summary of the game. We were probably unlucky to go in a goal down at half time, but by the end of the game it felt like we had been well beaten. What concerns me about the second half performance yesterday is the fact that we really didn't look like a team. Obviously we've been very unlucky with injuries, but that in itself doesn't explain why no-one, except perhaps Graeme Shinnie, was prepared to start trying to drive the team forward. The player with most responsibility for doing that would be Foran, I suppose, so I was a bit surprised when he was substituted so early even though he hadn't had a great game. If he was injured, fair enough; but if he was taken off that early because of tiredness or because Butcher felt he wasn't contributing enough, then it is a worry: you would expect your team captain to be on the park for almost all of almost every game. I also feel that Tokely, who as the club's most senior professional also has some responsibility to motivate and organise the team on the park, has looked very subdued all season. Of the rest, Davis looked composed but rather lethargic in the second half, Andrew Shinnie worked hard but looked pretty lightweight and too prone to be knocked off the ball and Nick Ross seemed to be on the margins for long spells. Tansey was arguably our best midfielder, but again didn't really impose himself on the game. Tade was perhaps our most dangerous player, and certainly no-one could accuse him of not trying, but yesterday confirmed again that he's not really a striker. As for Golobart, I contrived to be at the pie stall when the second Utd goal went in, so I didn't see his error, but the fact that Butcher hooked him at half time doesn't bode terribly well for his future. I've not seen any interviews with Butcher yet, but it looked at the end of the game as if he was pretty discouraged: normally he's very conscientious about acknowledging the supporters, and yesterday the team was applauded off the park by most despite the result and the second half performance, yet the manager simply stormed off up the tunnel. I expect nothing from Celtic Park next week, but the St Mirren game is starting to look quite significant. Every side in the league looks capable of picking up points, and at the moment I couldn't convincingly argue why we are less likely to go down than any other team. This absolutely isn't doom-mongering: it's simply an acknowledgement of the fact that we are in a very difficult situation in a very competitive league. If Terry Butcher can get us out of relegation danger with games to spare this season, then it will speak volumes for his management.

Cheers Don... and yes, I realise now that actually I could just have gone onto the site and checked for myself, lazy sod that I am...

This is good advice. The last few times at Celtic Park it has just been possible to wander round the away support section at will, partly because many of our supporters have just decided that it's not worth the cost and hassle to sit through the Celtic Park experience. Also, tbh, the view is usually pish whether you have a pillar in your way or not. Wrong thread I know, but I assume we will have to buy tickets from ICT for a week Saturday instead of being able to pay at the gate?

Govan Jaggie has already saved the Glasgow massive a few quid ahead of Saturday with his ability to outwit the Extortionrail sorry, Scotrail, system. Getting the 1041 from Glasgow + at least 4, should be in shortly after midday. I'm assuming final destination - apart from Tannadice of course - is the Centenary Bar. Hopefully also meeting up with dundeebarry - the man who put the jetpacks into Jocky - either before, after, or both.

A decent result on paper, and it certainly sounded like an encouraging performance, but if only, if only... Still, really looking forward to Tannadice next Saturday.

Chippendale outstripping the Hearts defence...

That's Not Fair.

How many chances?! Second half sounds like it's been our best performance of the season.

Tansey coming on for Davis. Sounds like he's had a decent game. Must say, I've also heard Andrew Shinnie's name mentioned a few times - maybe his confidence is starting to improve.

Sounds encouraging that he's getting into these positions though. Earlier in the season he frequently looked like he didn't know where he should be on the pitch. Hopefully that means the team is starting to develop a greater understanding. Eeek. Golabart fartarsing around on the ball again there and almost losing it. You think he'd have learned from the Aberdeen game.

Who needs Adam Rooney?