jaggie1994

We're playing exceptionally well apparently.

I wish I decided to stay down in Glasgow this morining now

Sarcasm doesn't really work on the internet....hmmm well i think if this guy was any more laid back he would be in a bloody coma!!

it's a shame foran is having to do all the legwork for two now and seems to be plugging away in most of the games i have seen as of late while this tube sanchez is too busy wondering if he left his fridge door open or if he actually put the new episode of changing rooms on sky plus.

butcher needs to make him wake up and get in the game!!!

:021: He's a Forward that scores.... who cares...

Joint top scorer now isnt he?

4 goals now and if Rooney gets credit for scoring 5 goals the whole of last season Sanchez could almost be classed as prolific

Oats.. if you had witnessed Sachez last weeks you would have screaming for him to be deported.. as i said why cant we do this at TCS... its so fecking frustrating.

maybe they dont feel under so much pressure away as they would at home games. Its not surprising and when we are at home most people will be expecting us to win every game comfortably. Which we know is not going to happen

Sounds like we are dominating just now lets hope we can double our lead

Dundee are 2 up now. Griffiths got his second

More intelligent than some at least.

Firstly, Robert congratulations on a well constructed considered first post.

I do have one point to ask about it though, what exactly does the fair amount of experience that our present manager has look like? When you see it in black and white? Have you considered this? His experiences mostly include bottom of the table or thereabouts. He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

I refuse to believe that our fate was determined by our players alone last season, Brewster fecked up, yes but Butcher also fecked up with dubious selections. Take a look at the squad now and the squad we had last year, who has gone and who came in. Then ask yourself if you believe we are better placed now to challenge for promotion as was publically touted by the club (bounce) or for rebuilding a squad for life in the First Division (I believe this is where Butcher thinks we belong).

My apologies for such a negative post, I said before Brewster was sacked that I believed we'd be relegated. When relegated I said that we'd struggle in the First Division where other posters were talking about bouncing back up. I'm just not feeling very positive about the way things are at the moment and ultimately it comes down to a small group of people.

The muppets.

Of course our squad was better last season than this season. As an SPL club last year we would have to have a better squad. I always knew that our squad would be worse this season as soon as we got relegated. Im actually think it could have been a hell of a lot worse as we still have the likes of Imrie, Foran, Munro etc

It is always going to be hard for the club to adjust to life in a new division especially when you have been relegated and I think now more than ever we need to stick together

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

How can you tell that. Not just because the new players have not played enough games but how many games have these players you mentioned in the first post actually played. Vigurs was playing regular football while Brewster was in charge and he did look very promising but as far as im aware you would be lucky to get 10 first team appearences for the other 3. I might be wrong as I have not checked but they have not played a lot of football for us so I would find it hard to say that we have not replaced them with players equal to the players that left

As well as that just being promising doesnt mean that they will be a good player.

I do wish that they do well in their careers and be successful

Especially Dale as I used to play football with him in the field across the road from Dows

Im going to the scotland game instead.

Well scotland are playing on saturday and ICT are playing on sunday. Why not make a weekend out of football :)

Thats what im doing

If Scotland win my body will be at the caley game but nobody will be home. On saying that it will be the same if Scotland dont win so try not to shout to loudly please

Should you not have the option to say no?

Whats the point in having the poll to find out the interest levels if people cant say that they would not be interested

I will be going

You should never be ashamed to be a fan of your club (abuse removed)

Thanks for that. I feel much better now.

But your sticking up for Lionel cause he got booed.

I'm not defending his performance, you just should boo your own player.

Are you saying he didn't deserve it?

No, you just shouldn't do it.

Cause, I'm not looking foward to going into work on Monday and getting ripped by County fans thanks to him. It's about 3 points, pride and bragging rights.

Take it on the chin, I'm sure you'll get over it.

Lionel cost us the game yesterday

He was awful, but so were a few others (Proctor and Stratford being the other useless ones.)

, face it and stop arguing with everyone when you know we are right for booing him.

No were not right to boo your own player. In my mind no true supporter of a club would do that no matter how bad a performance it was.

That is the worst performance I have ever seen in an ICT shirt.

I agree it was one of the worst but that's still no reason to boo him.

I don't care how bad he was. I'll be blunt that was one of the worst performances I've ever seen by a player in an ICT shirt. But you ever boo one if your own players. Never ever. There's is no right reason to boo your own player, you just should never do it.

Oh no, whats happened to me? I thought this day would never, ever come but, I find myself totally agreeing with renegade.

Lionel comes across as a hard working, friendlier version of Tokley, but with confidence issues. Why doesn't everyone try and help him to the top of his game by getting behind him (insert Graham Norton style innuendo here)? Booing him whilst he still has an influence over the game is an illogical action. Do these people think that Terry Butcher, a former international captain, and grown up adult, will select his team based on the booing of boozed up half wits, and crater faced children? Accept it, Lionel is a Caley player, and will be, at the very least, a Caley player up until Christmas, but more than likely for the next season. Get behind him!

If you really feel that ICT are nothing more than a business, and you as a paying customer expect nothing but value for money, then don't come. Your 14 pounds (dam macs, the pound sign won't work) will get you much, much more value at cine world or Eden court theater than you will ever get at Caley park. You could also do what an alarming amount of people did, and get the car warmed up and beat the crowds home. Always been jealous of those folk, eating their dinner before I've even left the stadium........

Totally agree with that. I would much rather they didnt turn up. I wouldnt care if it lost the club money becuase I think it would do a hell of a lot more good for the players

The only unfortunate thing is that most of them will never read this forum

Could you not just get the Supporters' Bus down, its much cheaper and looking at the times for the train it just about the same time.

Cause one of the people im going with doesn't like the bus

What do they have against the bus?

The crap banter maybe

I'm not offering any excuses, just calling it as I see it.

We can all claim this that and the next thing about players being let go and the reasons. You say it was footballing reasons, as I understand it some were demanding wages that we weren't willing to pay....neither of us can prove our statements, so no point arguing them.

We are where we are, last season is done with and we can't wind the clock back. One more goal last season and we Butcher would be hailed a hero, but being typical fickle fans (much like any other club) he's seen as some kind of villain in the eyes of some.

I've always claimed that any Manager should be allowed to succeed or fail by his own hand. ICT's failure last season was not of TB's making...ok, so with hindsight we maybe should have done some things differently, but with hindsight we might also have got rid of Brewster long before we did and given the new Manager more time/opportunity to save us from relegation....que sera.

It still baffles me that someone who was so keen to give Brewster an extended stay of execution would be so quick to try and poison people against the current incumbent. You cite Butchers managerial record as a reason to have got shot, but the very same reasons were given for not re-appointing Brewster...and in fact they still stand good to this day....whys should Brewster have been given a chance last season...after proving unable to turn things around, and Butcher, who has done a lot to turn things around, not be afforded the same courtesy?

Was it not you who started a thread on the site Archives and the content of them and pointed out how fickle fans could be etc? Perhaps worth taking another crawl through them to remind yourself of just how much you were condemning others for doing exactly what you seem to be doing now???

CD your point is very valid regarding loyalty and giving people a chance. You will see quite clearly that at no point in any post did I mention their removal, dismissal or similar. I do not believe this is correct for our club.

With regard to CB being given a chance, if I recall correctly, he was afforded the opportunity to sign Fillepe, Pavels and Byrne then sacked a fortnight or so later. Quality. Also aside from letting two of our best prospects go for free, what has TB down to turn things round?

The point I have been trying to make and will continue to make is he and MM are not the Messiah and JTB. They are at best good football people with a reasonable grasp for the game, at worst incompetent coaches who belong on the TV or elsewhere. The adulation and sycophantic hero worship afforded TB in particular is repugnant when compared to the abuse dished out to his predecessor. And why? Because he played 300 games for England with a stupid bandage on? Because he helped Rangers win nine in a row? Because he's a great after dinner speaker? I want a good coach.

I will only judge TB on what I see on the pitch not what he achieved as a player. His managerial record I have documented and aside for picking up on the good work that Billy Davies started at M'well and keeping it going, it is shocking. Disposing of two young guys like Vigs and Woody does not help. His treatment of Dale Gillespie was also shoddy at best.

Finally, I am very, very uncomfortable with this dual role he occupies as I see absolutely no benefit for ICT and plenty downside.

He wont have the dual role after the next 2 scotland games.

I dont believe Butcher is the messiah but its not going to stop me getting 100% behind him for now. If by January we are lying in mid table with no hope of promotion then by all means get rid of him and all the criticsm that had been said today and yesterday will have been justified but after only 4 league games and 1 defeat no matter what anybody thinks about the other results we cant start getting on his back just yet. We need to give him a proper chance this season.

He overturned a 7 point gap (or was it 4 im not sure) last season and yes we did throw it away in the last 3 games but would we have been in the same position with Brewster I dont think so. I reckon we would have been well off the pace. Butcher did the best to solve a problem that was left to late IMO

I understand some of the complaints you have with Vigiurs and Wood but maybe something went on behind the scenes. We will probably never find out

What happened between Butcher and Dale as well?

I cannot believe that I'm seeing the same posters on here who were waxing lyrical how well we've being doing suddenly losing the faith! Ok we lost against the scum, so what, it's a Marathon not a sprint, and I truly believe we have better quality in our dressingroom than any other team in this league. My only concern would be that Lionel was having a nightmare, and Terry took off Proctor, when it was obvious about Lionel and Sanchez was not even at the races. Defencively we have been OK but why suddenly introduce Zonal marking and that's why we lost the first goal! The second was an own goal and the third Stratord should have cleared. All in all a bad performance but to read all the negative posts, really GET A GRIP!!!!!!

I agree with you 100% it has been taken too far. It feels like their is a crisis going on (and not the top gear kind of crisis)

He was **** today but I dont think we should still give him a chance. Everybody was crap today and their was no need for the fans to start booing everytime he got the ball. We are supposed to be trying to give him confidence when he is playing badly not ******* jump on his back and pretty much tell hime to **** off.

We did that about the whole team today. It was all negativity from the people in the Main Stand in was a disgrace. They need to get themselves sorted out. I cant stand sitting next to them anymore. I am going to move to the North Stand were hopefully it will be better

I've tried this approach but, no matter where you sit, there's whingers all around you. As chibber said yesterday, it's almost as if people just come here for something to do on a Saturday. So true.

Yeah it is a sad truth

I was in the North Stand last year and it was no where near as bad as the main stand. I still dont think it will be much of a difference where ever I sit but the North Stand is a mile better from the experience I have had

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

Absolutely spot on, Sorted. As you will have seen in my comments in post no. 46 of this thread, I find myself in agreement with most of what you say in relation to Butcher's performance so far, and track record at other clubs. I think many of our fellow fans are too caught up in the general hype that surrounds him, stemming from his undoubted successful playing days. There's no doubt he has charisma. He just needs to show more management nounce before he loses the goodwill of his flock of 'he can do no wrong' followers.

Is there anything wrong in having faith in the man in charge though? Thats what its about. Getting behind the team through thick and thin players and staff. After 4 games into the league season surely you can blame people for wanting to give Butcher a chance to prove that he can get us back into the SPL

Who cares what he did in the past it is what he does for us now. As I stated in a previous post which never got a reply. Where was the experience for Patterson, Robertson, Brewster and Christie. I know for certain there was none for all except Patterson. He might not of had any either but I dont really know

What do Rooney's fans see in him?

They see last season's top goal scorer and he also reacts to chants etc. Good with the fans :angry05:

Thats hilarious!! Think he scored 6 last season. Thats a big total to be proud off eh?!!!

Better than Barrowman... our supposedly brillant striker on ?2,000 a week. ;)

He must be one of our better strikers considering all them goals have been from the bench....

Who said anything bout barrowman being brilliant? Dont rate him either and wouldnt play either of them!! We have a decent striker in foran. We just need to find someone capable of playing alongside him. But no no no, you keep singing your rooney chants for no reason at all!!!

So we are not allowed to sing about our players anymore?

You dont have to be a good player to get the fans singing about you. It is about getting behind the team and not booing them when they have a bad game

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

I did think letting those 2 go was a strange decision. It came back to bit us in the backside a bit

Is barrowman going to be fit for this game?

Esson

Tokely Bulvitis Munro Djebi Zadi

Eagles Cox McBain Hayes

Foran Barrowman/Sutherland*

Subs - Allison, Duff, Duncan, Gillespie, Barrowman/Sutherland/Rooney

* Depends on Barrowman being fit

Sutherland??? If its Zander, he's gone to Buckie.

Barrowman, i thought he was already fit and he was just being left out of the selection.

Shane Sutherland

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

Is barrowman going to be fit for this game?

Esson

Tokely Bulvitis Munro Djebi Zadi

Eagles Cox McBain Hayes

Foran Barrowman/Sutherland*

Subs - Allison, Duff, Duncan, Gillespie, Barrowman/Sutherland/Rooney

* Depends on Barrowman being fit

He's not been a consistent liability at all....you're starting to exaggerate and get carried away with yourself.

I've not totted up all the points for the PotY voting so far, but there's a couple of games where Lionel has scored pretty well, and if I could be bother going to check then I'm sure some of those getting hysterical will have voted for him at some point.

Not defending his performance yesterday, but some people really do need to give themselves a bit of a shake.

you seem to be defending him quite a bit!! Would he be in your starting 11?

I know that is not directed at me but I would play him against Partick. Its only a cup game and it is a perfect chance to see if he can bounce back. It is better than playing him in a league game which is im my opinion way more important than the challenge cup

Its also the perfect chance to make changes to the team ahead of a massive game down at morton in 2 weeks. Mainly Lionel out!!!!

thats a good point

He's not been a consistent liability at all....you're starting to exaggerate and get carried away with yourself.

I've not totted up all the points for the PotY voting so far, but there's a couple of games where Lionel has scored pretty well, and if I could be bother going to check then I'm sure some of those getting hysterical will have voted for him at some point.

Not defending his performance yesterday, but some people really do need to give themselves a bit of a shake.

you seem to be defending him quite a bit!! Would he be in your starting 11?

I know that is not directed at me but I would play him against Partick. Its only a cup game and it is a perfect chance to see if he can bounce back. It is better than playing him in a league game which is im my opinion way more important than the challenge cup

Dont see why Cox might not be able to go on and play for a better team in the future. He is only 19 years old and from what I have seen so far he could be an excellant player for us. It is still far too early to tell. Some of these players might go onto bigger and better things you dont know. Just like im sure most of us never thought that Robson and Brown would go onto play for Celtic. Well not after 4 games you wouldnt

sorry if this has been done before was just thinking about it after the game yesterday. We have nothing like the class we did when we wan the 1st division before. Lets take a look...

Brown, Robson, Bingham, Wyness, Ritchie, Wilson, Hislop all very good players who at the time could easily cut it in the spl.

and in our current squad I would say the only player we have of that quality is Foran.

In conclusion we don't have much hope, but in saying that our division rivals don't exactly have great squads either, for example Ritchie Hart was one of Dundees biggest signings. Is the 1st division really gone downhill that much or am I being unreasonable?

Please **** Off

It is one bloody defeat and all of a sudden the world is about to end

Shut up with the we are screwed ****. We arnt it was one ******* defeat. This is really starting to **** me off all the threads about how it is a crisis. Just please go away and stop typing a load of rubbish

calm yourself mun who said i was relating this directly to that one game? Me saying 'we are screwed' wasnt really the point in the thread. I was trying to make this a general topic!

emmm you did. The first line of your first post

Either way you cant judge the squads yet can you. Wait till the end of the season. Im sure if we win the league everyone will be saying how good the team was. You cant judge our players just now based on 4 games compared to a team that played 38 games. Its a bit soon to be making a topic like this

Please **** Off

It is one bloody defeat and all of a sudden the world is about to end

Shut up with the we are screwed ****. We arnt it was one ******* defeat. This is really starting to **** me off all the threads about how it is a crisis. Just please go away and stop typing a load of rubbish

As I've said already......

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

This is one bad game, and the fact that (given all of the above) we've managed to put together a squad who have managed to compete with Dunfermline, Ayr and Dundee is not bad going IMO.

What we witnessed yesterday is what Brewster was dishing up week after week and yet we have the very same people who were insistent that we give Brewster chance after chance now hitting the panic button and asking for Butchers head?

I think that (some) of the moaning has more to do with sending some kind of misguided "get it up you" message to those who supported the sacking of Brewster than it is about what Butcher is or is not doing....it's as if some so called fans are almost willing disaster upon us this season to prove some kind of point!!!

Looking over the last few weeks games (yesterday aside) I don't see any losses!!!

We've won a game we should have drawn, drawn a game we should have won and drawn a game where we probably weren't expecting much more (if anything)....and we're still in both cups.

You'll forgive me if I'm struggling to see whatever point it is you're trying to make.

CD, appreciate your thoughts but what I am trying to get to is what is the basis for this confidence in TB/MM? Can anyone give real examples of where they have delivered with any of the clubs they have been involved with in a coaching/managerial capacity? Do they have a history of signing little known players and blending them into an effective team unit?

They did well at Motherwell eventually and I will give apart from that they have been crap but where was the experience for Steve Patterson, John Robertson, Craig Brewster and Charlie Christie. They didnt have any at all so it is good that we have got people who have the experince and hopfully they have learned from their mistakes