DONT PANIC! - Site Upgrade in progress. Apologies for any downtime, broken stuff, or weird looks !
CaleyD
+06: Site Sponsor
-
Joined
-
Last visited
Everything posted by CaleyD
-
You're nearly as slick as Charlie Bannerman when it comes to avoiding the question -
A few members of the Supporters Trust Board have regular discussion with Kenny Cameron on a variety of things and he is more than aware of the thoughts and feelings on the "Rangers Situation" which have been expressed on here and the wider ICT community. As I understand it, ICT are in receipt of all money due from Rangers FC so would not be attending Creditor Meetings anyway. Even if we were due money, then the power in dealing with that falls to the Club Board and having a shareholding in the club would not give any rights to attend Creditor Meetings. This decision is one which would be taken by the SPL Board and not the Member Clubs so ICT would have no (direct) vote on the matter.
-
Seen nothing to back up the "3 old firm games" part of the current TV contract, but even if it does exist then any Rangers NewCo would not be one of the Old Firm and they could rip up the contract anyway. Nowhere have I seen anything other than speculation about SKY/ESPN pulling out totally if Rangers are not in the SPL. Turnover Figures as per accounts registered with Companies House 2011 - 3.5 Million 2010 - 2.0 Million 2009 - 3.6 Million 2008 - 3.4 Million Other than our year in Div1, turnover looks to be fairly steady. None of the accounts shows a breakdown which gives income from TV, although I think your figure would probably be a fairly decent stab at it. Pure speculation. Exactly the kind of scaremongering that far too many people are buying in to without looking objectively at all the possible scenarios. I'm not suggesting Scottish Football would thrive (financially) without a Rangers (or Celtic)...certainly not short term. What I am saying is that the game is already heading for bust and the current setup is driving people away. You've admitted that yourself above where you say that crowds and income are falling. To suggest that we allow one team to have done what they did and be allowed to continue as they were in order to save the situation is complete folly. We all agree that change is needed....but allowing a NewCo Rangers immediate access back to where they were/are will change nothing. The pie is going to be significantly smaller whatever way you look at it. Scottish Football is already a joke and if we don't take a stand in order to try and reverse the trend then not only will we have lost TV deals & Sponsors, but we'll have lost so many fans that we'll end up in a situation where the game will all but die with no hope of breathing life back in to it. Stop feeding on the corporate and political BS, take a look around you at what the people in the stands are saying....you can have all the TV & Sponsorship deals in the world, but with no fans you have no football. My whole argument is based on not selling out your soul in the hope of a few scraps from the devils table....which is what has got us in to the mess we are in at the moment. The easy option is to just wave a Rangers NewCo in to place. We need to start looking beyond the end of our noses to the long term future of the game. I want to be attending ICT matches in another 40 years time, not worrying if we'll even have them in another 4. It would be nice if that was in the top league in Scotland, but not at any cost. Sort thing out now and let teams find their natural level....if that means part-time football for some and oblivion for others, then so be it. Better that than a long painful drawn out saga where all dignity goes out the window as we beg shamelessly to and feed from the proceeds of Scotland's biggest shame. And submitting a Rangers Newco straight in to the league means exactly the same thing....you just don't have any hope of changing it any time soon. What you are arguing for is a situation where the rest of the SPL places it's future in the hands of a company that has just proven (monumentally) that they can't even look after themselves....what makes anyone think that they will do anything going forward that will be of benefit to anyone else? Would it not be better to face 5 years of difficulty with your destiny in your own hands instead of placing it in the hands of a company that has just proven (monumentally) that they can't even look after themselves....what makes anyone think that they will do anything going forward that will be of benefit to anyone else? We have Independent SPL Directors....they are the ones telling us to bend over and lube up in preparation for the Rangers NewCo.
-
Ok, let me see those facts, because all I have right now is a TV Contract that's not been signed and returned and 2 possible large sponsors that have withdrawn an interest despite proposals that allow Rangers to remain in the SPL....fact!!!
-
You are totally missing my point...and it has nothing to do with emotion and I'm certainly not trying to change the situation. 1. SPL with Rangers (NewCo or OldCo) will appeal less to TV companies than it has up until now. 2. SPL without Rangers will appeal less to TV companies than it has up until now. Either of those scenarios is likely to mean a rethink of the offer that is/was on the table and less money coming in to the pot. I agree that 1 will likely provide a bigger deal than two, but to suggest TV will withdraw altogether from Scottish Football under scenario 2 is ridiculous. I don't know which half of the OF pulls the bigger TV crowds, but I imagine it's even enough for the sake of argument. The Celtic crowd is still worth something to TV companies so we're not looking at a 30% drop in league income....even if we were, you still have to look at whether a larger slice of a smaller pie is better than a smaller slice of a slightly larger pie. Even if worse off with the larger slice of the smaller pie, is that a price worth selling all morals and principles for??? You then have to look at league sponsorship. (Allegedly) 2 big potential sponsors have withdrawn their interest...and I don't for one minute believe Toppings spin that this is due to the "SPL 10" standing up to the OF. It's more likely because they don't want to be associated with the embarrassing shambles that is the SPL. Are any other sponsors going to be as keen to attach their name (especially a global brand) to a league that all but sanctions fraud? Is what might be lost from a potential sponsor by allowing a NewCo Rangers stay in the SPL more or less than the difference in TV Money? There's this huge assumption that we will be better off financially with a NewCo Rangers than we would be without...all I'm saying is that it's not the cut and dry case that many are trying to make it out to be and the "price" of losing Rangers isn't as likely to be anything like as big as what is being suggested. Of course, there is the 'Elephant in the Room' which...if you are morally bankrupt enough to accept it and make a case for it...would give the upper hand on the "better off financially with Rangers argument". Anyone want to take up that case? Like it or not, anyone putting forward an argument based on keeping Rangers because we need the Rangers v Celtic rivalry is skirting on the edge of saying "I'm happy to see the SPL profit from sectarianism & bigotry"...because that's one of the biggest driving factors behind those teams being as big and successful as they are today. I'm not saying get rid of Rangers for that reason, or keep them for that reason....I'm just saying that when you are setting aside your morals and your principles in accepting and/or arguing a case in their favour, you might just be selling out more than you thought.
-
Rules were changed on filling spaces in the SPL if/when they arose for whatever reason. Bottom team still gets relegated and any additional position/s are filled in order from the top of Div 1.
-
We'll have to agree to differ on this one I am afraid .... I agree with most of the rest of what you said (which is why I cut it out), but I think you underestimate the TV thing. They are not only interested in Celtic/Rangers because of the title. They are interested in them because they make an absolute bloody fortune selling the screening rights to these games overseas. I cant speak for anywhere else, but i think we have enough of an ICT ex-pat community in various locales to back me up on this ... I know of at least 10 Celtic and Rangers clubs within the greater Toronto area and these are packed for every OF game as well as other games. The clubs pay a fortune to the TV companies for that coverage on pay-per-view or premium channels, and those channels now seem to align with the UK versions (ie, ESPN and Fox (or TSN2 in Canada)) and pull their feeds including commentary so they dont even have a studio overhead cost. Extrapolate that from Toronto to the rest of Canada, then into the States, to Australia, to the far East and the Middle East .... and the revenue is staggering. As much as we would all be interested in seeing ICT -V- St Mirren it doesnt have quite the same draw for others, even if it were a post-OF top of the table clash. That's fine, if you buy into the theory that a non-competitive Rangers will retain its current level of following. You just have to look at how much gates and TV fall off for one half of the OF when the other secures the league early or crashed out of Europe for an indication of what would happen. A non-competitive Rangers will be lucky to half fill Ibrox (and they struggle to do that at present for some games). If you believe last months Rangers Fan Rants about not follow following a NewCo then you can probably slice that even further should liquidation occur. Let's face it, it took "proceeds of crime" and handouts in the region of £350 Million over the last 12 to 15 years to get/keep them where they are now. Where are the going to get that amount of money in near future?....and we;re talking money over and above that needed to just survive day to day in order to become the "force" they have been.
-
The whole TV thing is a Red Herring, IMO. TV are only interested in the OF games because they are the top two teams fighting it out for the title and because people pay to see that. Rangers after administration/liquidation and living within their means (remember no European money) are not going to be able to compete with Celtic and someone else (or maybe a couple of teams) are going to get the jump on them for a variety of reasons. People are kidding themselves if they think Rangers will maintain anything like the current fanbase when they aren't competing. Unless the TV companies are as naive as the Rangers fans who think they are going to be challengers for anything next season (and for a few seasons to come) then they are not going to honour the extended offer that was touted recently...contracts were already suppose to be signed, but these have not yet been returned. Bottom line....we're going to lose a chunk of the TV money anyway, so it's (IMO) a non argument. The alternative, booting Rangers out, opens up the way for an agreement on a more even revenue share. Yes that will be a small pot, but it's going to bring more than the smaller pot we're inevitably going to get under the current setup and by allowing Rangers (as a NewCo) to remain in the league. I know I have been the "voice of doom" in the past when it comes to talking about the risks of ICT going into Administration or whatever, but following a few conversations I have had with various people recently it kinda dawned on me that it's near impossible for ICT to go into Administration, and even if they did, the cost of any CVA/Rescue deal would be minimal. Why? Because we have no debt and no real means of getting any because nobody is lending. Even if we started missing Tax Payments, in the current climate the HMRC are going to clamp down before that gets to any huge amount and if they were to force administration then it would need little more than a whip round on a Saturday afternoon to dig us out of such a situation. As we would not be the only ones facing such a situation then a 10 point penalty is likely to effect more than one team in any given season over the next couple of years, so relegation due to point deduction is not such a huge risk...and even if we were relegated, we know we can survive as a Div 1 team. Relegation cost us £1 Million, but that was because we spent a bit more than we might have in a (successful) attempt to regain SPL status. With a different attitude we could easily trim our costs and survive, in whatever league, until things started to sort themselves out and find a new level. The real danger lies with those with debts hanging over their heads that they could not service without (current) SPL income (some struggling with SPL income)...and these will be the clubs taking a "Scottish Football needs Rangers" stance....and doing so for all the wrong reasons. In truth, regardless of whether Rangers are allowed to stay or were booted, income will drop and these clubs will struggle anyway, at best the status quo (in terms of Rangers in some form remaining) just prolongs the agony.
-
Many people made plenty of noise when Grant Munro and Russell Duncan left Inverness at the end of the season after gaining promotion back to the SPL at the first time of asking. There were loud murmurs for them to return to Inverness and once more grace the hallowed turf at the Caledonian Stadium, especially with Inverness struggling defensively as injuries began to take there toll. But these players had moved over the bridge to join rivals Ross County, and they have certainly made an impact, with County poised to make the step up. Well, back by popular demand the former Inverness Caledonian Thistle favourites will be playing once more on Tommy's turf in a testimonial game for two of the players who were deemed surplus to requirements after lifting the first division championship at the end of season 2009/2010. Between them they amassed a total of 720 appearances in the red white and blue of Inverness Caledonian Thistle. These guys have been fantastic servants to this club and well deserving of a healthy turn out at this testimonial match, where Ross County will provide the opposition. For the first half of this testimonial, we may get an insight into how the new first division champs will fare in next seasons SPL as both clubs will field their current squad players. The second half will see legends from both sides perform, I wonder if we can spot the difference. These two players have totalled over 21 years of passionate service to Inverness CT and have been an integral part of the club, helping to shape the history of our team. Grant had captained his home town team for a number of years and when County are officially promoted that will be his third step into the SPL. Russell has recently been loaned out to Peterhead and his battling midfield qualities will be welcomed at Balmoor. <style type="text/css"><!-- .centre {text-align: center;} .justify {text-align: justify;} --> </style><table border="0" cellpadding="10" width="95%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"> <td width="47%"><img src="/ccs_files/images/player/misc/munro200.jpg" hspace="10" vspace="5" align="left">Grant was signed on an "S" form and was part of the Caley Thistle first team squad for 13 seasons. For his first three seasons he was a youngster attempting to make the breakthrough. He only made a total of 10 appearances between August 1998 and August 2001 and was also loaned out for part of each season (to Fort William [98/99], Clach [99/00] and Elgin [00/01]) as manager Steve Paterson sought to carefully develop his talents. However his break came in season 2001/02 where he made 22 starts for the club and by the end of season 2010/11 he had racked up a total of 367 appearances for ICT (352 starts) and scored a respectable centre half total of 17 goals. As a youngster he developed a good partnership with Bobby Mann and when Mann left at the end of 2003/04 season, Grant became the rock at the heart of the ICT defence, first with Stuart McCaffrey and then as one half of probably the best central defensive partnership ICT have ever had alongside Darren Dods.</td> <td width="6%"> </td><td><img src="/ccs_files/images/player/misc/duncan200.jpg" hspace="10" vspace="5" align="right">Russell came to ICT from Aberdeen in the summer of 2001 but it was not his first visit to the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium. He had previously captained the Scottish U-16 team here in a 5-1 victory over England in 1997 ! Russell was a bit of an enigma in terms of fan appreciation. Many saw him as an "unsung hero" who often failed to get the credit he was due, whilst others would bemoan some of his performances and recount each and every missed pass. However, it is a fact that ICT results with him in the team tended to be better than when he was out of it .... His importance to the team can perhaps be gauged by looking at his appearance statistics. In 10 seasons with the club, through the span of 6 different managerial regimes, Russell never played less than 29 games in any season ... thats someone who the manager knows he can rely on !!! In the end, Russell made 353 appearances for ICT (318 starts) and scored 11 goals. It may only have been 11 goals but as every Inverness fan will know, Russell only scored spectacular ones, most of them coming from outside the box.</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="centre">Debut (squad): 4th Aug 1998 Debut (played): 2nd Jan 1999 50th appearance: 13rd Nov 2002 100th appearance: 27th Oct 2004 200th appearance: 3rd Mar 2007 300th appearance: 24th Oct 2009 Last Game: 14th May 2011 First Goal: 16th Feb 2002</td> <td class="centre"> </td> <td class="centre">Debut (squad): 4th Aug 2001 Debut (played): 4th Aug 2001 50th appearance: 28th Sep 2002 100th appearance: 17th Jan 2004 200th appearance: 25th Nov 2006 300th appearance: 31st Oct 2009 Last Game: 14th May 2011 First Goal: 13th Oct 2001</td> </tr></tbody></table> -
And I can't believe you suggested "Barrowman" should be anywhere near a legends match!!!
-
Scotty, the rules in regards to Financial Fair Play are not some new thing that has just appeared as a result of the Rangers situation. They have been in discussion far longer than that and are needed to meet some of the new legislation that is coming in to play at UEFA level. It's just bad timing for Rangers....nothing more, nothing less. What I will add to that is the fact that it's up to each association to interpret and apply the UEFA Financial Fair Play legislation as they see fit/necessary, and in that regard it would certainly seem like the SPL have done all they can to produce a rule set which favours Rangers situation as best it can whilst making it look as if they're not letting them off lightly, which they need to do in order to appease all those who are not "Rangers Minded" and demanding a punishment that fits the crime.
-
No...they don't. I have seen absolutely no quantifiable evidence whatsoever that shows that statement to be true....it just seems to be the more that someone says it, the more they seem to believe it. You don't keep feeding drugs to an addict just because they think they need it, and if Scottish Football needs a few years of cold turkey to realise just how bad the situation was and how they can have a better life without it, then so be it.
-
I deliberately avoided adding that option because there's no mechanism (other than coming last in the league) which allows for automatic acceptance of an SPL team into the SFL.
-
I guess it was a bit naive of me to expect it not to turn to a discussion on Rangers!!! Since that's out the window, here's my first observation on reading the "boycott" headlines this morning...... Since this all begun we've been getting the "We won't follow a NewCo with no History, so whoever buys us better not put us in liquidation or it's all over". Strange now how they seem to be ok with the idea of a NewCo, so much so that they are willing to take a stand against the rest of the SPL if they dare hinder or stand in the way of it. Confused.......dot.......com
-
As per the opening post "Further names to be added in due course"....so he may make an appearance yet.
-
We do play HL teams in bounce matches....most of them closed door games though (although not heard of anyone ever being turned away when showing up). I can only imagine their must have been a few concessions made from the original proposal to have achieved a "unanimous" decision. I know a few of the clubs (including ours) wanted to be able to play 5 or 6 older players...the argument being that the young lads will only improve and learn by playing alongside more experienced players. If that's the case, then we effectively have a reserve league with the U20 tag (probably to allow access to funding from the development pot).
-
Race is on to see who makes it back to Div 3 first!!!! On your marks, get set.........
-
Given the amount of discussion around the proposed SPL rules changes and the fact they would allow a NewCo to automatically remain in the SPL, I thought I'd try a poll to try and engage where the strength of feeling lies on this matter among forum users. Whilst the situation has obviously arisen from the Rangers situation I think discussion should be focused on the idea of it being any club so as to avoid the old "you're only saying that because it's XYZ FC".
-
The rules aren't to stop clubs going into admin/liquidation - it is providing clubs with the structure to walk away with debts and start fresh in the SPL 10 point slap on the wrist. You can't legislate to stop clubs going into admin/liquidation, only create a set of rules which punish them sufficiently to make them think twice about how they operate in order to prevent it. My preference is a rule that says if you go into admin/liquidation then you are out...no ifs, buts or maybes. However, we all know that would be like asking the Turkeys to vote for Christmas because EVERY club knows it could easily happen to them the way things are. I don't think the (proposed) rules go far enough, but it's a step in the right direction and I would hope that as clubs start to bring their finances into order that they continue to stiffen the penalties until we do get to the stage whereby we have a rule which kicks offenders out of the league.
-
I don't accept the "technically correct" theory. Inverness Thistle FC and Caledonian FC merged upon entry to the SFL.....so "technically" C*unty are the third team from the Highland League to make it to the SPL.
-
If I didn't know better I'd say IHE was posting on your account....you'll be trying to convince us next that you misread the tea leaves Or maybe just some.....
-
The SPL were/are never going to allow Rangers to be thrown out of the league, and whilst I disagree with that I think the proposed rule changes would at least ensure all clubs are treated evenly in the future. If all proposals are accepted then I think we find ourselves at a point where there's enough punishment in there to start making clubs seriously look at how they operate and think twice about the currently easy option of administration...or indeed liquidation.
-
He's on loan.....to try and even things up a bit
-
Very good of you to point that out - maybe you could give me some examples of my "wrong statements" so that I don't make any in the future There's three on this thread alone and the one about Kenny Cameron being replaced by Richard Smith is another....not the best of strike rates!!!
-
Yeah, saw that in the Daily Record this morning. Rather than trying to explain it, you'd be best checking out the description of what a Floating Charge is at this link - http://www.companylawclub.co.uk/topics/fixed_and_floating_charges.shtml Whyte has effectively moved control of that floating charge from one company to another. The person who holds the Floating Charge effectively has the power to borrow against the assets of the company....and/or has a claim on the proceeds of those assets as a preferred creditor should the company be liquidated. Yeah....another potential legal minefield that could drag the whole saga on for a much, much longer.
