absent friend

This is totally unfair!! Why Bovril is ignored I just don't know. Pies, pies, pies, that's all we hear if you want to be a REAL fan - never poor old Bovril. I submit that Bovril does aid singing better than your common pie - or two! .

In my original post I mentioned the 'senior' tag we now seem to have. I can imagine TB wanting 4 circuits of the park at team training 'but you Foran, Rossco, Munro and Golly just you do 2!!'' Aye right!! The young guns would be up in arms. So...is there a compromise in place where they all do 3 perhaps, to keep the peace? Talking about keeping the peace, I realise that the above will not be the case but is good relationships in the dressing room more important, at the moment, than hard training?? We were told Brewster lost the dressing room - surprise, surprise if they had just been made to overstretch themselves in training, in the player's opinion - I don't hear any of that at this time. .

I would think the Motherwell manager would have preferred an easier tie than this. We must be seen, by him, as a potential problem for them. We have nothing to lose, the underdogs in a big way as they are currently flying high, but we could come out on top.

I remember Ian St John, as a successful manager, stating that the first thing to go on a football field when tiredness sets in, is a players natural ability. We have seen our team playing like champions for 45 minutes and then fading and looking very second, even third rate before the game is finished and I wonder if this is what Ian St John was referring to. When I see the ball breaking off ICT players to the opposition in the second half and this not being the case in the first half I wonder if the natural ability to get the ball under control has deserted them. There is no doubt in my mind that in the past when ICT were up against any standard of team, the final part of the game belonged to them. Their fitness was never in doubt. Now I wonder if this is the case. Could a better second half be enjoyed by improving their fitness/amending their training so that we could again witness a team that can perform for 90+ minutes, without breaking sweat? Is the senior age tag we now seem to have attached to our team mean that training is geared to the more senior players, less strenuous perhaps but creating problems on match days? .

Keep him Under our current manager's tuition he should be improving every week!! But there again I see the whole defence as being our weakness now which is surprising so maybe the manager is not such a good teacher as he was a player.

One of the problems with a thread like this is that many of us see it for what it is - a boring re-utterance of what has gone before HOWEVER if we say nothing all that is on here is negative comments which is an unfair picture of the real situation. The silent majority, if they reply are classed as the 'other camp' something I object to. I can and will make up my own mind regarding our managers ability but only after taking other area for consideration into the equation, over time. I do find it sad on here when other agendas rear their head 'English' 'blue nose' 'ex Rangers' (quote -'note sarcuism') when there is no need for it. There are other sites that pander to this rubbish. I did not realise that he only ever played for Rangers or so you would think, reading the offerings on here. What camp am I in? In none at the moment, along with many others I would think, unless giving support to the team puts you in a camp.

Exactly, I don't want, nor did I start this thread, for a discussion on whether or not Butcher is any good or not or any of that stuff. I started this thread to try and see what people think will happen with Butcher regarding ICT, in the near future. But Sir, to quote you - would you manage a team.... in a mediocre football country, at a club who aren't in the top league, at a team in the middle of nowhere. if you had the wit to do better for yourself??

He is a good manager, we are lucky to have him, he is also intelligent and were I he, I would go as soon as possible when my contract is up and never look back at a team with so many negative fans! It must do his head in. On here people write 'if I can walk away from a game, irrespective of the outcome, where I have been entertained, that is all I ask for.' We had superb entertainment last week and all we hear is 'what did the manager do wrong'? 'I am livid with that showing' etc. Forked tongue or what?? Terry, go and be appreciated somewhere else.

Football is a game between two teams and one team can only play as well as the other lets them. Sunday we had the first half, they had the second and also the goal that matter! To talk about panic buttons, stopping playing football, no game plan after losing a goal etc is totally disrespectful of Dundee who came out of the blocks better than us for the second half. End of! Sunday proved to a lot of us that we at least now have a team that can perform, it is only instilling the confidence in them that this is the case and the results will come.

Where oh where do I find a smillie with a fishing rod??

Clacher whatever you have, it is contagious! Here's another one with your problem! Are you both suggesting we have never lost a goal before so we don't know, as a mature team, how to react when we do? Rather foolish me thinks!!! The latter part of Harry's post sums it up I think.

This is the type of statement that really riles me!!! A team of professional footballers and somewhere on this thread it is stated that they were the more 'mature' team and guess what? The manager did not prepare them for the opposition scoring a goal. How sad that the poor wee diddims were not prepared for that! Imagine Butcher's team talk ''Now children (that is aimed at the defence) should any of those bad, bad , Dundee players score a goal, don't look surprised, don't cry, I am not allowed on to give you cuddles, just don't be too hurt. And as for you( the forwards) don't dare came back and give them too much sympathy - they are big boys now and will just have to get over it themselves. This does not mean they don't feel your support from afar. Now I have prepared you for a goal being scored against you, go back out onto that wet park and Rossco...you are not allowed that umbrella!!" .

Would Jock know that as well?

With loads of hindsight...and a TV replay Golly off - Zadi on!

How Golly is immune from any criticism after Sunday, beats me!! He is not up to our teams standards for a full game. Watching the replay of Sunday's game, he not only was at fault for standing off his man and allowing a cross to come in, he was so slow, he could not take the throw-ins to our advantage and his passing was crap. I accept his history with ICT and applaud it but his time is past. If Zadi played as stated above he would not be in anyone's team for Saturday and indeed he would be on offer to Clach for free according to the posters on here BUT he is not an ICT old boy! Would Zadi have done a better job than Golly on Sunday, in the second half? Of course! Would the boos have rang out? Of course every time he was on the ball! .

Having studied the game again, as I said, I don't think it is as black and white as you make out above. We did not play 'so badly' in the second half when you study it - yes we lost three goals but we could have scored three as well and then we would have been world beaters in some folks eyes!! I think the team deserves lots of praise for the way they played but I do accept that we can even improve on that showing.

Wait until you see the recording in full Kyle, it is worth the wait! You will have a problem trying to reconcile the comments of some on here with the actual facts as they unfold on the screen. Using the pause etc buttons you are able to see so much more than you did at the park and not just the goals. From memory on here, I recall Esson being called crap, Eagle being rubbish, Rooney a waste of space, etc.....watch and learn!! One player receives pelters on here and he scored two goals in a manner that would have the EPL adding them both to their goals of the month - I know I exaggerate - but there is an element of truth in this. We have a team of players that can do big things for us if their confidence and belief can be worked on. Let's hope their manager, unlike some folk on here, concentrates on their positive play and not use one mistake to negate all the other good work they put in!

What would I have done? Stressed to the players that Dee will come out like terriers and whatever effort went into the first half, by us, had to be maintained and increased in the first part of the second half to combat their early agression. Ten minutes into the second half the changes by JS would be evident and tactics amended to suit. Fatigue due to the heavier conditions to be monitored and subs used accordingly. Result 4-1 ICT and my prediticion would be up!!

I see a lack of consistency in the above. We agree that JS got the tactics right in the second half putting Griffiths on the wing when the park turned into a ploughed field and heavyweights were at a disadvantage HOWEVER the goals came from their right side and I do not see Golly being held to blame at all - only Rossco is mentioned and he was against the star player on the park. If Lionel was left back this whole forum would be exploding with anti-Lionel comments. Golly must be well related!!

My prediction was for a 4-1 win to us and nobody at half time, by the comments being made, would have argued with that. I have never heard more positive comments at a halftime, all smilee faces, craic great. 2nd half they upped their game - we did not - end of!! For me it was evident that they had nullified our main weapon so Hayes should have been off early in the second half. They also put Griffiths, with his pace down the left wing against Rossco. Wee player, very fast, heavier ground due to rain, no contest - Procter should have been put back there and Rossco moved forward. For the record the big left winger had little chance against Rosco in the first half, Rossco refused to tackle staying on his feet and kept the winger from coming inside. This allowed a defender to back up on the left and time for the defensive to regroup at the back, against Griffiths this was not the case and it is full marks to the wee guy and his manager! I can understand the late subs because extra time was a big possibility and they could have been needed. Imrie was at fault for the tackle, but looking at the game on TV when I got home, there was no backchat and indeed he moved away from the scene and had to be called over by the ref, so in my estimation, a yellow but he is still a turd. Anyway wonderful game, great support, maybe not as big as Dundee's but more class - super day out all together!

As a PS to the forgoing .... Why can't I attack the young guys on here?? Parental funding, full sex life, no work concerns AND a full head of hair!! Attack them??? I hate THEM!! What jealousy?

Well Davie., problem puppies are found in any age bracket and whilst I accept my post 'attacked' the younger poster, you will find, in the recent past i.e. this week, that I have encouraged a young poster to consider the presentation and not the content, of their post, that is constructive. It is without doubt a requirement to have younger blood introduced into this forum BUT they must be aware that there are boundries and whilst they may be 'in your face' - their postings must be embraced by 'respect for others'. Now my older 'problem puppies' are also as above but they should know better!! We all have the right to our views and indeed that is the richness of this forum - to debate is healthy - to attack the poster for holding differing views is childish in the extreme. I have been labelled a 'muppet lover' a 'sweetie rustler' 'an idiot' etc because I do not accept booing of our players, unsupported criticism of the Board, that a loss is not the end of the world, even to the County but I can accept that this is in the spirit of the time and the hurting is there for all to see. This is miles away from the problem being discussed by Scotty in my opinion and whilst a 'sack the board' 'sack the manager' is to be expected after a defeat, it is the long after negatitivy that undermines the enjoyment. Anyway, roll on Sunday, get the sweeties ready and find a quite corner away from all the noise!! .

Must agree with this, we can't see the overhead kick into the net (No, not ours!!) if he is not on the park. Unleash him from the bench and see him goooooo!!

Having been appalled at the post content it is only correct for me to say - well done that man!!

Your last seven words concern me. I do not think the 'younger posters' require to be encouraged unconditionally, they require to toe the line when posting and accept that a certain standard has to be set. If they require to be Forum upstarts let them blow off steam on P & B and come on here once they have seen sense. I have posted, in the past, my appreciation of this forum but there is no doubt that in the recent past postings have gone downhill. If we accept that postings must reflect the onfield/support behaviour then we are in for a hard time on here. Losing in this league is something we will have to get used to but we could still end up in a good place - better placed for next season for instance. Childish postings should not be tolerated. I feel we are suffering from a small minority of 'problem puppies' and this should not spoil it for the rest of us. .