dougal

I am being wholly serious - the only decision that I cant fathom is the release of Grant Munro - although rumour has it that he was told that he could not be gauranteed a starting slot.

I rarely agree with anything you say Ender but the Grant Munro situation makes me mighty angry and I believe Butcher has possibly made the biggest mistake of his ICT managerial career to date

In my opinion Grant should still be at the club and in the starting line up every week

All i will say is that its a big risk Terry is taking to treat the local hero so shabbily

dougal

With the recent downpour, I was just wondering how the improved drainage system was coping.

I'd hazard a guess that the pitch is waterlogged

I see you still start amazingly interesting threads

dougal

Im with ICTChrus!

If I had to guess Cooking sherry would be your tipple judging by your previous posts :biggrin:

dougal

For the record there are four more members on this site that think there are more refuseniks than I do so try and work that out if you can

Would be nice if you also told us that you have changed your vote three times over the last week, at one stage being one of only two posters who went for 1,500+.

Wow what an earth shattering revelation that is and loaded with irony too

Surely you are not trying to say I have somehow rigged the vote?

Thats like saying an imaginary vote ended something like 55-50 when only 97 voted

dougal

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

I think you're gonna have to explain your logic there.

Surely the most relevant stat from the poll is that over the course of a week, hundreds of people have viewed it but only 24 took part.

Yngwie it hardly takes a brain surgeon to work it out but here goes just for you Sir

11/24 which is less than 50% voted for very few refuseniks(0-50) while 13/24 more than 50% voted for considerable numbers

Are you trying to tell me the votes have somehow been rigged??

I'm afraid the fact that only 24 have voted leads me to think that the number of original Caley or Thistle fans on this forum are neglible and backs up my claims about the numbers of refuseniks

For the record there are four more members on this site that think there are more refuseniks than I do so try and work that out if you can

Finally I would just like to point out yet again for Tearlach Bannerman I've never set foot in either Telford St or Kingsmills but don't let that stop you trying to stereotype me

dougal

I have little doubt that Caley would have held their own in the lower reaches of the SFL had they alone gained league status, as indeed would have Thistle had they not been snubbed in favour of the Ferranti works team in the seventies.

However, I am in no doubt that they would not have attracted the fan base or sufficient financial imput from the commerecial or public sector to have ever had the resources to to finance full time football and thus reach the dizzy heights of the SPL.

That was a task that was challenging enough and almost bankrupted the club as things are.

I may not be typical but myself and my family would still be supporting Thistle in the Highland League rather than following the fortunes of Caley oscilating between the first and second divisions.

While we appreciate your input Kingsmills we have already came to the unanimous conclusion( well apart from Alex) that Thistle would probably have been no more unfortunately had Caledonian FC gone alone

I find the poll results very interesting reading and I thinks it safe to say that there are a lot more refuseniks out there than the average ICT fan likes to admit

Anyway I've done a bit more research into the merger over the last couple days and I've unearthed some very interesting points which maybe explain why there were refuseniks and why they still exist today

I find it staggering that both teams fans who were not season ticket holders were not polled regarding a proposed merger, surely this could have been done quite easily by handing out a small questionaire to all home fans as they came through the turnstiles

Why was it allegedly suggested to both memberships at the first vote that the Scottish league preferred a merged team and that a league place was guaranteed when this was definitely not the case at all?

Why did they allegedly not accept proxi votes from members that lived outside Inverness and could not attend in person?

They also allegedly failed to to inform the memberships that had the first vote gone against merging there would have been a second vote for a solo bid therefore misguiding them into believing that they were voting on a take it or leave it scenario?

IMHO mergergate didn't appear to have been handled very well by both previous clubs committees and as a result the refuseniks on both sides of the divide were born

Maybe Mr Mantis or Old Caley girl can confirm whether my findings were valid or not

dougal

I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

I know if my beloved Nottingham Forest merged with Notts County you wouldn't have seen me for dust

dougal

So have you made your mind up then

Mr Mantis the more I think about both scenarios its remarkable how similar the football communities of Nottingham and Inverness are

Forest like Caley being the greater team with the better players, more money, better ground and a much larger support

I can't help but laugh out loud at the ex jaggies that claim that they had all the money men who were allegedly regulars at Kingsmills, from what i've been told and the few online photos of Kingsmills park i've seen, then why did their ground resemble something like a scene from Beirut at the height of the troubles

Any money men would have pumped the cash into the Scottish league team regardless of who the team was

I personally think the jags were on their last legs and they only had one chance of survival and that was to cling perilously on to Caley's tail because they would have been dead and buried within a season had Caley gone solo. You only have to look at the sorry state Clach find themselves in at the moment to back up my claim

Had I been a Jaggie I reckon I would have fallen into the refusenik camp, there is no way I could watch a merged team who play in blue, hear only Caley chants from the fans and listen to virtually everybody in Inverness including the local and national media refer to the team as Caley

Had I been Caledonian I would have voted NO to a takeover and I would have wanted Caley to go alone because other than the sale of Kingsmills Thistle were bringing absolutely nothing to the party

What I find galling is that clubs who were inferior to Caledonian on and off the park got Scottish League entry(yer Ross Countys,Peterheads,Elgins,Gretnas and Annans etc)

The fact that Gretna reached the SPL and County made a Cup final apperance makes a mockery of all the clowns on here that claim Caley would never have achieved what ICT have done.

Lets not beat about the bush Caledonian FC would be in the exact same position that ICT find themselves in at this moment with a greater and more loyal fanbase as there would be a lot less disharmony in the City

dougal

Were we really a much smaller report charles?

I take it you mean "support" and that's a wee typo but the answer is still "Yes" - you unfortunately were a lot smaller. That was actually one of the problems which meant that Thistle was a severely weakened entity when the merger came around - lack of money, including gate receipts.

Another case in point was the September 9th 1993 votes. Caley went for the merger 55-50. At the Jags meeting it was 33-12 so less than half the attendance. On the other hand Jags were at a fundamental disadvantage since only MEN were allowed to go to their meetings!

Let me give you this anecdote. I wasn't in the original Caley meeting since I only joined afterwards (OK, it was in order to get into meetings for reporting purposes!). But I did doorstep their original one in the Muirtrown. As the season ticketholders came down the stairs afterwards, somebody called out "Jags have gone for it by three to one!"

The response from one wag was instant.

"Christ! There weren't as many as four at the Jags meeting were there?" :biggrin:

All this proves to me anyway that you ain't the dye in the wool Caley man you make yourself out to be

dougal

This interesting Charles - never realised the men only vote re the Jags. As we are talking about fairly recent history Im surprised the vote was legal.

Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned!

As far as I am aware, Caledonian FC never changed its constitution on the basis of the merger and is still, for instance, constitutionally bound to have a registered office in Telford Street!!! :biggrin:

(Unless in the very dying days when all 576 Season Tickets had expired and only the Life Members were left, they quietly sorted things.)

OCG.... get a hold of my book. All is explained there!

All is explained by a very Pro-merger author with very pro-merger views which no doubt suited the club at the time of publication

While i'm not slating the content of "Against all odds" I prefer to hear views from both merger camps not just the one, that way I can make my own mind up

dougal

Dougal you are wrong. I still see a lot of fans now that I knew then around the TCS. charles is right in that a lot have now died and at first I think a lot did stay away but eventually a lot drifted back. I voted for option one in the poll as I dont think there are many of the diehard refuseniks left. My brother and his mate are part of this group and there are a few guys that post on pie and bovril but I think a lot just moved on.

I dont really think a lot of folk care about old history anymore. My kids certainly dont. Personally I just like the fact that the Caley name is still alive and well and remember the HL days as being fun but I was very young them. I dont think that Caley would have achieved as much on their own personally as ICT have.

Fair enough I appreciate your input and that is why I started the thread as I wanted opinions from football people like yourself who were about at the time of the merger

I take it your brother and his mate just stopped attending football altogether?

dougal

Yeh they just do Scotland games now.

Fair play to them its a shame but there were always going to be casualties as a result of the merger

You say you attended all the meetings, I assume you saw folk there you never ever saw at Telford St and probably have never seen since?

dougal

Dougal you are wrong. I still see a lot of fans now that I knew then around the TCS. charles is right in that a lot have now died and at first I think a lot did stay away but eventually a lot drifted back. I voted for option one in the poll as I dont think there are many of the diehard refuseniks left. My brother and his mate are part of this group and there are a few guys that post on pie and bovril but I think a lot just moved on.

I dont really think a lot of folk care about old history anymore. My kids certainly dont. Personally I just like the fact that the Caley name is still alive and well and remember the HL days as being fun but I was very young them. I dont think that Caley would have achieved as much on their own personally as ICT have.

Fair enough I appreciate your input and that is why I started the thread as I wanted opinions from football people like yourself who were about at the time of the merger

I take it your brother and his mate just stopped attending football altogether?

dougal

It was quite interesting to deabte this one the first four or five... or even six!... times it popped up on this forum. But it's now got quite tedious and I'm not even going to dignify the question with a vote on the poll.

But let's look at it this way.

After the Howden End and a lot further afield was trawled again and again and again for Caley "anti" sentiment for the 1st December 1993 Rose Street vote, 226 people voted against the merger. This is the biggest anti merger vote that there ever was.

We also know that a great number of that 226 subsequently became regular attenders. But let's be conservative and say that half the "NO" voters didn't attend matches. That's 113 and if you make a very generous addition of 87 from the much smaller Thistle support, that get's you to what I suspect is a vastly over generous 200 refuseniks compared with the 1500 or so fans which was the average gate in the early days.

17 years on, a significant proportion of that generous 200 are either dead or have left the area. There MAY be 100 left which out of a core home support of about 3000 is a VERY small price to pay for the formation of a club which represents the whole of Inverness.

Had Caley gone alone, I don't think the support would have been anything like as large and the financial backing from the Council and the community and business certainly wouldn't have been.

Ok Charles or should that be Eric

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83B3Laghlkg

How exactly do you know that a great number of that 226 became regulars?That is quite frankly a ridiculous statement on your part!!

If my source is correct the highest ever recorded YES vote was allegedly 250 and a large amount of these people had probably never set foot in Telford St in their entire life but no doubt you will attempt to correct me if i'm wrong

I firmly believe that a generation of Caledonian fans have turned their back on ICT with maybe a handful only becoming regulars, Mantis being one of that few and I salute him for that

dougal

This is clearly a shameless attempt by Dougal to reach 200 red dots before CaleyD or IHE reach 200 green dots. Don't give him the satisfaction. A green dot to you CalyD!

Sorry Doofers dad i'm afraid you are very wrong, I couldn't care one hoot about the stupid green dot/red dot farce

I personally would like to see it binned however it probably keeps the ICT boo boys/keyboard warriors happy

dougal

This subject seems to rear its head now and again so i'd thought it was time to set up a poll so the subject could get put to bed once and for all

Its probably more appropriate to older ICT fans but younger fans can join in as they may have fathers/relations etc who were involved with Caledonian Fc or Inverness Thistle at the time of the merger

Think it safe to say that we all know that there are fans of the two parent clubs who refused to watch or support ICT in any way but just how many are/were there???

From what I can make out from this forum there are very few Caledonian or Thistle fans on here and the majority seem to be younger fans who have only supported ICT in their life time

I've stated before i've experienced hostility from pre-merger fans when the topic ICT is mentioned so I know it exists in our city

A few questions to maybe ponder and debate

1. I'm not an expert on the merger as I wasn't in Inverness at the time it happened but would we have a higher average attendance had Caledonian FC gone alone?

2. Buses leave Inverness for Pittodrie,Ibrox and Parkhead every weekend so did numbers dramatically increase on these coaches once both pre-merger clubs ceased to exist?

3. Do any on here personally know any refuseniks and if so are they as anti ICT now or have they mellowed as time goes by?

4.Were any posters on here in the Caley Rebel group?

5.Were and posters on here involved in any of the meetings when the voting on the merger took place and if so what were your memories and recollections?

6. Were you a pro merger or anti-merger voter?

No doubt I will get slated yet again for posting this thread but this is by no means a wind up or a fishing trip, its a subject i'm genuinely interested in and to be honest i find the whole subject quite fascinating

dougal

I wouldn't be erecting a statue to any particular individual. However, it's always bothered me that, as a club, we seem to shy away from everything pre-1994 so a pair of statues depicting the Eagle and the Thistle in recognition of the clubs roots and the work done by everyone to get us where we are would be most appropriate, IMO.

I think there is a reason the club shy away from everything pre-1994 and that is they don't want to inflame an already delicate and touchy subject

Erecting an eagle and a thistle outside the main stand would be in my opinion a detrimental move on the clubs part and would achieve nothing more than stirring up a hornets nest

dougal

Thank you fer the professional compliment - coming from a character like yourself makes it all the more pleasing to receive -I always do my best to subtly encourage Mr Butcher. My apologies fer completing taking over yer thread but I now appreciate that Caley D was cleverly changing the context of the thread and allowing a more skilled angle to be employed.

From a psychological perspective I can also assure you that your poster name / piccy / personality are a perfect match for yon dug on the roundabout.

Here's a website for you IHE, if you order today it should arrive by Sunday and it would be ideal for covering up all your offending tatoos

http://www.morphsuits.co.uk/Default.asp?Redirected=Y&gclid=CLfa-5nduacCFYEc4QodcHqHAQ

dougal

Tokely was superb today, and is now much more comfortable in central defence - himself and Hogg are forming a decent CD partnership. Even if Gillet is fit I think TB should stick with Munro at LB. I also hope that MacDonald gets a start sometime soon, but not in this game.

.....Esson.....

Duff, Hogg, Tokely, Munro

Hayes, Cox, Duncan, Doran,

.......Foran......

.......Rooney......

Tuffey, Ross, McBain, MacDonald, Morrison, Sutherland

I agree entirely with you Johnboy i'd be quite happy with that formation and line up

There's no way i'd throw Gillet into this one seeing there is so much at stake and I agree i don't think Terry would either

I got my ticket early(Section F in the North) as i was in a priority group(I attended the Morton and Elgin games in the previous rounds )

Roll on Sunday

dougal

It looks like this thread and the meeting Terry and Mo had with the players midweek had the desired effect going by yesterdays much improved performance

Sometimes a little bit of reverse psychology works wonders and it certainly appears to have come up trumps on this occasion

We can now go into the Septic game full of confidence after a solid display and we should have nothing to fear

Well done Terry and Mo

dougal

I'm bitterly dissapointed not because of the result as United were the better team but it was the way we lost, I lost count how many hoof up the parks were played tonight by Tokely and Munro

There was very little football played on the deck, there was no passion and to be honest very little if any entertainment

Our home performances have been nothing short of an embarrassment this season and I now really have doubts about our management duo and the tactics they seem to be deploying

I am in no way calling for their heads(not yet anyway) in this thread but I believe its about time they tried something new tactic wise because if they don't they are going to see dramatic reductions in attendance at the Caledonian Stadium for the remainder of the season

I shudder to think where we would be if we hadn't had such a good start and picked up all the points we got on the road

C'mon Terry & Mo i'm afraid what we are having to endure from November time isn't good enough

dougal

Ok I apologise my comments do appear to be misleading, fair play to the ticket office for introducing this and it looks like the powers are starting to take note what us the real fans say on this forum :0)

dougal

I think Laurence has had a bad day. There is some truth in what he says although it is rather overstated. He's just being unrealistic in his expectations. Even Barcelona have bad days.

So I take it you are happy with ICT's home performances this season then?

dougal

If you decide to go along with the charade that is Donkey Doncasters restructuring of the league I personally will not return to TCS until you are no longer part of the set up in Inverness. I believe that a 10 team league will be to the detriment of football in this country and this club. I will not pay good money to watch the club I love die. Do the right thing George.

I detest that man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart, and speaks for another. Homer

I bet this has got Mr Fraser panicking

Comedy Gold

dougal

we will do well to finish 10th. top six what a joke

A bit harsh :annoyed:

This will be the final table

Celtic

Rangers

Hearts

Dundee Utd

Kilmarnock

Aberdeen

Motherwell

Hibernian

St Johnstone

ICT

St Mirren

Hamilton

dougal

IMO tomorrow night is the most important game ICT have played this season

Anything less than three points tomorrow will virtually end our dream of a top six position, our form has been pretty poor since November and looking at the league table now isn't particulary pleasant viewing

Think us the home fans have an important role to play tomorrow night by turning out in numbers and getting right behind the team from the off, i'm ditching my usual seat in the main stand and i'm going to purchase a seat in the north to help the young uns with the singing

dougal

So where does the "we" come from ? And it is ICT not ITC Lawrence.

Were you at Tannadice ? Were you at Ibrox ? Were you at Parkhead ? Were you at Rugby Park ?

No - we were.

What fecker asked you to visit ? Must have been a whining, disloyal sweetie rustler - go and watch the Old firm if ya want to glory hunt in Scotland.

Irony overload, coming from the one covered from head to toe in Cellic Tatoos

dougal

Tickets will go on sale as soon as possible. ICT have been working hard to finalise things with both Celtic and Rangers. Hope to have an agreement in place within the next day or 2 when tickets will go on sale to Season Tickets holders and usual priority groups.

Keep an eye on here and also the official site for more info

I've said this before and i'm going to say it again, non season ticket holders who can prove they were at the Elgin and Morton games in the previous rounds should be added to these so called priority groups

Poor show by the club

well, the tickets that are left for public sale will be available AFTER the Old Firm replay so expect the usual appearance of filth in the home end.

an opportunity missed I feel to give as many ICT fans (regulars or otherwise) a chance to get their hands on a ticket

instead the queue on friday morning will be a mixture of genuine fans and the scum that heads down the A9 to Glasgow every second saturday

Well said Seoras, i'm seriously thinking of boycotting this game in protest, don't get me wrong there will be some genuine fans but they will be in the minority unfortunately

dougal