Kirishima

Yeah, the only real demand for Scottish football is from the fans in Scotland. TV and going to games. How the SPL thinks they will be able to sell the rights to Sky when all of the customers have said "nah,not paying for this crap" is beyond me. No supporters - no viewers - no money.

The one thing I'd like to see is the evidence. What evidence do they have for any of the stuff they're spouting out. And another SPL spin, saying they had all clubs on board when they clearly only got one to back down - we must be even more of a laughing stock now than ever before. *cringes*

Yes, Ralph, but to his enemies he's Geoff...dunno why I said Geoff?? Anyway, point being, if we were being led down the garden path by Roxburgh, Will, etc. it'd be strange but a little easier. As it is we're being told what's good for us by people who have no background or experience of the Scottish game. An d they're not giving us any proof of what they are making us do. It's into the abyss, yet again. Topping and Doncaster will be long gone by the time it has to be cleaned up, as is always the way. Can the fans force a real grassroots change??

Neil Doncaster is a website guru who did a rank rotten job at Norwich City Geoff Topping is a bookie promoted to the top of William Hill. That's it. The SPL were wholly responsible for losing the Sky Sports TV money in the first place. They have meddled unsuccessfully with the league, from 10, to 12, and now going for 10 again. Under their management, TV money has fallen, attendances have fallen, debt has sky-rocketed, clubs have folded. The co-efficient rankings of the last two seasons are now on par with Poland and Slovakia. The SPL story reads like the lovechild of a mole and a bat.

The only way I could see the fans scaring the powers-that-be would be to boycott Scotland games. Helluva thing to do, but so is ignoring over 80% of fans, reneging on statements, and being led by greedy, money-obsessed corporate suits with no vision in mind but pound signs. We get this from the bankers, why does it have to filter into football too?

It's not been decided, there still has to be a proposal delivered and then voted on, but it would seem from this the 12 have said, "ok, write it up, that's fine" The only thing that would de-rail it would be mass-fan protest and/or boycotts, starting from tomorrow or the weekend. I'd be happy but surprised to see that, it's a fractious group at best SPL fans.

The SPL is the Xtra Factor to the English Premiership's X-Factor. Hello Ljungbergs, hello Beatties. The fans are nothing to the SPL or to the chairmen. God forbid we could change Scottish football by cutting our cloth, and being a serious league like on the continent. Nah, let's just suckle on the English Premiership's has-beens fame and hope the English tune-in. The line will be "Unfortunately, a 16 team was not viable, and as chairmen we have to make decisions based on the best interests for the stability and future of the club." And it's based on complete disdain for the fans.

10? Well, thanks chairmen for listening to the fans. I give up.

BBC website put the 25 pt penalty on Dundee a couple of days ago and now have taken it away again. As a result it's now Ross county in play-off relegation instead of Dundee. I'm torn...

Just media rumours at this stage.

2009/10/11 Timeline Feb 2009: McLeish appointed as Chair of Scottish Football Review Mar 2009: 12 SPL clubs' officials meet to discuss SPL2 May 2009: Scottish Football Review launched Apr 22nd 2010: Supporters Direct says fans want teams to play each other twice only Apr 23rd: First-part of Henry McLeish's report Nov 1st: 6-club Steering group meet to revamp SPL. Anger from other 6 SPL clubs of their exclusion Dec 16th: Second-part of Henry McLeish's report. 10 team-league idea with SPL2 Dec 16th: Supporters Survey shows huge opposition to a 10-team league Dec 20th: Meeting of all SPL clubs cancelled due to weather Dec 24th: Excluded clubs meet with Doncaster Jan 4th 2011: Re-scheduled meeting happens, SPL confident 10-team league idea will be passed Jan 5th: Fans flood forums against 10-team SPL, Chairmen refute that it's a done deal Jan 8th: Jan 17th vote cancelled This has been a farce, it's not in anyway been done right, the fans survey was ignored, 6 clubs were excluded from talks, then the SPL say it's all about TV money and buying in players, yet in the middle of last year, 14 teams looked most likely. I don't think Doncaster and Topping have done anything but lose any respect they had from the fans. It's been a mess.

Thanks for the info. Is there anything to report about what was discussed about on Thursday? Were the Supporters Trust able to go to Hampden? I appreciate there has been some vague attempt by the SPL to court opinion, but the survey by Supporters Direct has not been part of the process, as the SPL have not cited it, considered it, and the steering group is made up of 6 chairmen from SPL clubs. Nothing about this process has been about the fans, save for some token gestures that were just for show. They have responded to the fans wishes by dismissing them out of hand, and quite condescendingly too, "No one else has put any alternatives up. I think those who want 16 teams in the top flight are deluding themselves." (Doncaster) I would hope that Doncasters desperate last-minute PR stunts are recognised for whaat they are, lip-service.

Doncaster is now meeting with fans on what the Telegraph views as a "charm offensive." I find it pretty transparent, that after saying it has taken 8 months of hard work to come up with a 10-team SPL idea it wasn't until 10 days before the vote, he is suddenly getting out there. You had eight months to listen to the fans, but ever the politician, when the s*** hits the fan, shake some hands and nod your head. Can the Supporters Trust confirm when he will be in Inverness?

That's very true. And a point was made earlier that the Old Firm are the most marketable side to the SPL. That's a given. However, what the fans seem to want is a focus on playing without the negative, repetitive, avoid-relegation-at-all-costs football that would indoubtedly arrive with a 10-team league. All we hear is TV money, TV money, but that's not what Scottish football should be relying on. Clubs should be focussing on a fresh, exciting, youthful league. What pride there is in seeing young players flourish, perform, grow and eventually progress to their and their clubs benefit. We see Bosnian players being sold for tens of millions along with Czech, French, Swedish, Danish, etc etc, and that is because they have given teams the chance to play young players and then reap the rewards. Ajax have often taken a three-year hiatus from the title challenge while playing youth in the knowledge that it will come. There are plenty leagues in similar countries to Scotland that do have teams that dominate, but if a bigger league happened we'd see a lot more youngsters flourish. Let's stop thinking TV money, which is a small fraction of income and very variable, is the be all and end all. Let's cut the debt, cut our cloth, and push scottish youngsters to the forefront. That's what is wanted by the customer base as opposed to importing has-beens which is a debt-carrot and a hugely short-sighted and pessimistic view of potential.

Caley D makes a very valid point in answer to JoeDi Maggio. "I'd love to see where they came up with those sums" I don't have financial projections for a 16-team league but neither do the SPL for a 10-team league. They are assuming they would get a better TV deal, and they think that fans will like the excitement of 6 teams in the relegation zone all season. They say fans want players from abroad getting high wages. Have you heard them answer these very basic questions? Where is their fan survey? Where is their chairman and experts survey? What supposed better TV deal has been discussed with Sky Sports or similar? We had a 10-team SPL before, it didnt work, so why do it again? Experts have said youth will suffer with a 10-team league. How does this address the vital need for a winter break asked for by managers? Where are the figures backing up their claims? What financial deal is there for SPL2 teams? Where are their figures for a 12, 14, 16-team league? If its purpose is to import/buy (Topping) "highly paid players" (Milne) how does this address the crippling debts of clubs? We are being told what is good for us without being shown why. It's like a company trying to sell you an internet package but refusing to tell you how much it will cost, how long it will be for, who it is with and what speed it will be. If 11 clubs go for a 10-team SPL the fans will not go with them. I hope people in England enjoy watching old Swedish wingers in half-empty cowshed stadiums.

So what do you propose? What do you think is the best system? And why? I say 16 is best because it will alow us to re-build broken, debt-ridden teams, by bringing them in from the cold, that is, if we get people in place that also want to save Scottish football. It will also allow teams to forego buying in over-paid imports, and play youth, which are free, and a source of revenue, far greater than TV money, and a lot more stable. Tackling debt, by supporting clubs, by taking away the fear of oblivion, and creating a real effort-based all-leavel youth programme. Ideas such as regional youth leagues, drafts, etc., have all been discussed here. Splits and play-offs to combat reduction in games/competitiveness have also been discussed. What are your alternatives? Don't be like the SPL and just say no. It's not drugs we're selling...

That's the very thing, Sorted. Doncaster has said "No one else has put any alternatives up. I think those who want 16 teams in the top flight are deluding themselves." There are no alternatives because they've only dreamed up one idea. One fatally flawed idea. They keep banging on about TV, TV, TV and pushing one idea, when TV money is probably less than 20% of income now. How about looking after where 80% of the money comes from?? Football existed once debt free and could again. They want clubs to spend, spend, spend when the accountants are saying save, save, save.

I can absolutely understand the need for competitive games throughout. However, if our aim is to really improve Scottish football that means we must focus on creating something brand new, radical, amazing. This means detatching ourselves from the status quo and years of old. That is what the bigwigs are doing, looking to the past, a past which cannot be replicated (and thank god) We need to support the smaller teams,not just ICT, but teams like Hamilton, St Mirren, Raith, and even Dundee!! They must be assisted in clearing their debt, having more access to funding, cutting costs, etc etc. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. We need to rip up the rulebook and start again. I would say this, have a look at Scotty's MLS post previously. These kind of ideas are what we want, instead we get boring old farts that have no background or grounding in the game, giving us words (but no evidence) as to what they imagine/think is best for the game. All I want is the SPL to get out of their wee office and create a product based on the customer, and find ways to make it work. Not think up one hugely unpopular idea and then force it upon every club and fan without any discussion or consultation. If this 10-team SPL goes ahead, fans will just walk away. Hope they have enough TV money for that! As to what CaleyD said, well, as the Daily Record said (God help us) it's up to us to make sure our Chairman knows what we want.

Jan 6th, Henry McLeish: "A smaller number of clubs receiving a higher share of income, which recognises the financial problems facing the game, is a very understandable road to go down. "The fans are close to the game but not its finances. I acknowledge they want a bigger league but it would create serious financial difficulties. "Everyone has a right to be heard and debate is good but we must be realistic and not pretend the financial nature of our game is going to change overnight." They are the ones pretending it's going to change overnight! PricewaterHouseCoopers have said in their reports that cutting costs is the way forward. They're the financial experts. Or should we listen to a disgraced politician who resigned after sub-letting his free apartment paid by us. He had to pay back 36,000 quid. Why are we now being told what is good for the game by Topping, McLeish, Regan, Doncaster none of whom are fit to run anything? They are making it up - they do not know. They've done no no consultation, and have offered only one idea by one man.

I think taking ideas from MLS is a good one, and the A-League, and Russia also have sensible ideas. Having some top foreign players is great, just not 11 mediocre ones. The problem is, while we are all looking at things such as the MLS for inspiration, Topping Doncaster are making it up by themselves, with a little help from a failed politician/ex-football player. They've come up with nothing, nada, that is remotely sensible, comprehansive, well thought through, representative or original. Just 2 men making it up by themselves. That's the danger the game faces now. Who decides the future of the game? Surely not a handful of men that aren't experts?

Cruyff says stop spending money on players from abroad and invest in youth development. The people wanting a league of 10 (a builder, a bookie manager, a solicitor) say give 10 teams more money to buy players from abroad. Unfortunately, for Scottish Football, we have the wrong people making decisions. We need change, they need to leave. They've shown their stupidity, it's time they moved aside. Is this the most united topic ever on Caleythistleonline?

The SPL?s strategy group, composed of six clubs ? Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibernian, Motherwell, Rangers and St Mirren. From the very get go, by having half of the league making decisions, it was amateur night. And the idea they came up with is an insult. I'd wonder what is round the corner? I'm hopeful of 16 but it needs pushing from the fans. It absolutely would work if every club cut their cloth accordingly and gave up on this defeatist pathetic idea that we need to be like the f****** X-Factor of football bringing in names rather than producing our own stars. It's clear that some people in high up places need to leave for real change to happen. Take a quick look at Topping and Doncaster. One has only ever woorked for one company and in a similar role for a year while the other bailed out of Norwich when they were demoted to League one...seemed to have done ok since!!

I think the most telling snippet is: "Our initial impression was that the SPL Strategy Group was looking to choose between 12 and 14 clubs and it was a big surprise to us and others that they have come forward with a proposal to actually reduce the SPL to 10 clubs." The words "hoodwink" and "impose" spring to mind. What awful behaviour from this mob. They don't deserve to be anywhere near the game.

Aberdeen and St Johnstone are for it ICT, Hearts, Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock are aginst it. I wonder where the rest will fall. It seems, from reading all the quotes carefully from those wanting the 10-team league, that the most important thing is to get more cash to buy player s in and pay them big wages. Seriously, it's all on BBC from Milne and Topping. Is that really what we are up against? Such basic, idiotic, short-sighted, never-learn clowns?? The SPL nearly ruined teams by chasing off Sky Sports. Anyway massive credit to George Fraser for doing the right thing, the only thing. Shame on Milne, Topping, Doncaster and Brown.

Thanks Charles. I'm relieved to see that Geoff Brown saying " I would like to think we have a consensus" was just words. Ralph Topping's argument is based on bringing in players from outside Scotland. Stewart Milne has said they need money for "highly paid players." It is this opinion of the game that is ruining it. Their idea of the SPL is full of highly paid players from anywhere but Scotland. That's also why Aberdeen and the majority of clubs are riddled by debt. It seems we are seeing the true colours of Chairmen now. George Fraser has done ICT proud by standing for what is right.