Charles Bannerman

We have bridge......and a Opera House.... Bridge and Castle.... Sydney style!

Are you Dougal in disguise?

I therefore await the next letter in the local press from that fundamentalist nutter who keeps visiting divine retribution on people doing various things which don't resonate with his brand of bigotry. I presume he will predict that the game will be postponed due to heavy rain and and a waterlogged pitch because it's taking place on a Sunday. The same guy believes that there's a link between recent flooding and the Scottish Parliament's decision to allow Gay Marriage. Now even I wouldn't be that hard on the SNP!

What an absolutely brilliant example of a clever "back of an envelope calculation"! The mathematical logic looks totally sound to me although I might quibble at one of the assumptions. That relates to the Inverness population figure of 63,000 which is indeed the current statistic but if the city's population is going to be used to estimate an Inverness diaspora in Sydney then maybe a somewhat lower figure might be appropriate since the Inverness population at the time that the individuals concerned became "disaporate" enough to want to relocate would have been rather less since growth has been very rapid in recent years.

Scarlet, I think they tried that in 1513 and progressed three miles.... as far as Flodden. If Alex had chosen September 9th 2013 for his referendum rather than hang on in the hope of some kind of Bannockburn Bounce....... it would be all over by now!!!!

I really don't think the overall SNP majority, nor hence the referendum which came with it, was at all expected in 2011, possibly until after the polls closed. Even though Labour were in some considerable disarray, a couple of weeks before polling day opinion polls were consistently showing neck and neck between them and the SNP. Sandwichgate certainly didn't help but the real blame for the fact that we are having this referendum must lie in Labour's dysfunctionality. I really can't say that I've been "getting weary" of the debate for the simple reason that its minutiae have never really interested me in the first place. But questioning its relevance at a time when there are many other far greater priorities is a perfectly valid point of view on a forum related to this referendum. Then firing off the odd irreverent salvo certainly helps relieve the tedium and, if I'm lucky, might even provoke another anti-Westminster dissertation from Oddquine!

DD ... I am pretty sure that quite a large slice of the 22% of the Scottish electorate which voted for the SNP in 2011 did not do so with a referendum in mind. Yes, they did say they would have one if they got more than half the Holyrood seats but not many people expected the Labour car crash etc and hence the small majority the SNP did get. Apart from the dyed in the wool Nats, people vote in Scottish elections on the basis of how their health service, justice, education etc will be run and separation really isn't a major issue. But although nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition, we got one so that 22% have now - many of them unwittingly - caused us to have this thrust upon us. And that's the way our democracy works so we have this referendum - but it's a perfectly valid viewpoint not to be a fan of it. I am not, by the way, saying that those in favour are a bunch of haggis munching numpties. I am merely suggesting that the manner in which the SNP conduct their business would tend to appeal disproportionately to same. In terms of whether or not it is a waste of time, well apart from the fact that a lot of people - even those who didn't waken up every Saturday morning to Derek Bateman's latest game of Referendum Trivial Pursuit - are already getting very referendum-weary. But at least, barring the totally unforeseen, the next 200 days will hopefully not in any way produce the absolutely fundamental sea change required to overturn decades of polling evidence and we will get the No vote which, with any luck, will bury this business for another 307 years.

I've said before that I'm really not all that interested in dancing to the SNP's tune and participating in some kind of po-faced "debate on the constitution" which I think a great number of people in Scotland aren't really all that fussy about since they would much rather, as Westhill has also suggested, simply get on with their lives without this unhelpful distraction. Quite frankly I would much prefer to debate some of the more obscure aspects of Latin grammar from the dentist's chair! After all the only reason we are having to go through all of this is that the SNP, thanks to the shortcomings of a Labour and Libdem nightmare (the Tories were a nightmare already!), managed to get a narrow Holyrood majority in 2011. And of course the only thing the SNP are capable of thinking about is separation. So they have no real concept that Westhill's "silent majority" actually have lives which they want to get on with so could really do without getting the backsides bored off them by all this hot air and uncertainty. However the separatists have got their soapbox and we are stuck with it for another 200 days. Quite frankly I don't give a toss about what level this stuff descends to, since to me it's a complete waste of time in the first place and maybe a decent bit of argybargy might lighten things up a bit!! And no, I don't like the SNP - a viewpoint which is securely based on many years' experience of their arrogance, intolerance (esepcially of the poor English - that's self evident!) and tendency to state their limited case mainly by making more noise than anybody else - q.v. Salmond's multi-decibel bellowings at Holyrood. I do however remember the pre-oil era when the SNP were just a wee group of chippy but harmless eccentrics who got terribly huffy about Culloden and Glencoe and nicked chunks of rock from Westmineter Abbey in between the serial loss of election deposits. But the oil, and the greed and resentment which they have stoked up as a result of that, has changed all that and created an unfortunately larger but altogether less endearing institution - not helped one jot by some of the individuals involved, and the deeply unpleasant lunatic Cybernat fringe.

Perhaps I should clarify that my slightly loose usage of "David Sutherland" should more strictly read "The Tulloch Group through David Sutherland".

I think Highland Council own the stadium. Highland Council, through the Inverness Common Good Fund, owns the stadium site and leased it initially to ICT for a 99 year term either late in 1994 or early in 1995. The Council did, I believe, have some financial interest in the north and south stands at one point but whether that is still the case I am not sure.

When ICT got into severe financial difficulties after 1999 the Inverness Caledonian Thistle Trust was set up as a charitable organisation. I was told at the time that the legal bits required the Trust to be available to help all sports but I am not aware of it having operated outwith football. In effect a deal involving the Trust and the bank removed over £2M of debt from the football club while the lease for the stadium site and ownership of the fabric transferred to the Trust. As far as I recollect the original Trustees were ex-Provost Allan Sellar, David Stewart MSP and David Sutherland. There is no doubt at all that the debt was sidelined through David Sutherland's intervention and the bottom line is that the ICT Charitable Trust - when I last looked!! - owns both lease and stadium fabric. PS - in his former "poacher" days, Caley D would probably have posted to disagree in some respect. So will we hear from him in his current role as "gamekeeper"?

The Bught has already been devalued by the construction of an enclosed area for Inverness City's park as well as severe surface damage for a long way around the bonfire site and unsightly heaps of earth in various places. I would also have to observe that the weekly parkrun is also beginning to wear the perimiter quite markedly. Now I know that some of the Inverness football community tends to get a bit sensitive about any perceived criticism of Inverness City and I don't intend to dissect that particular story once again. But it has always been my belief that the Bught is the wrong place for their park and they should have been given better access to the Northern Meeting Park and Northern Counties cricket club should have been decanted to groundshare with Highland at Fraser Park. I also think that point of view is reinforced by the fact that NCCC has now slipped even further downwards and has been relegated to playing reserve standard cricket in the reserve league. It's not realistic that NCCC in any state, never mind its current one, should have such a stranglehold over a facility like the NMP.

I think that is a significant consideration because, although there are of course people on both sides who have come to considered and informed viewpoints, the yessers are seem to be endowed with a rather larger proportion of the less cerebrally aware and resentful Chippy Jimmies who tend to find attraction in the vacuous sloganising and grievance promotion which nationalist parties worldwide tend to retreat into. I mean tosh like It's Scotland's Oil - Penny For Scotland - Free by 93 ( ) - Ah stan' fur Scoa'lan' - and all the rest of the simplistic nonsense which the SNP have peddled for years now. Anti Enlish haggis bashers - unfortunately there are far too many of them out there, and that is to a fair extent down to the resentment, greed and grievance promotion which the Anglophobic SNP have cultivated for decades. I well remember being outside Inverness Town Hall for the declaration of one of the 1974 elections where Russell Johnston had well and truly kicked the backside of the SNP candidate and the proceedings were then completely disrupted by a bunch of Nationalist knuckledraggers chanting so loudly that the returning officer could barely be heard. This was the epitome of the SNP's "Macbeth's Soliloquy" approach to politics.... "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound anf fury, signifying nothing."

The logistics of moving the train station would surely even have appeared stupendous to the 70s generation of Howden Enders licking enough hallucinogenic stamps to send Big Daddy to Australia and drinking Scotsmac in swimming pool quantities!

I heard somebody suggesting UHI. If they can afford to pay their Principal over £250K a year, a shirt sponsorship would be a snip.

Harris Tweed shirts? Pretty bloody itchy! Maybe an idea as a hair shirt pennance after any particularly bad result though.

There you go Scotty! Rather than pour £1.75M into regenerating the top of Academy St as recently reported, how about just blitzing the lot and build a new stadium there instead. There would probably be a campaign to keep the Phoenix - but on the other hand maybe not since last time I was in there (looking for someone who had fortunately left) the whole place stank of p!ss and there wasn't even a barman behind the bar.

It only seems to have been raised by you in this post. This is a discussion about stadium location and the relevant and valid issue of keeping Telford Street as a possible home from 1994 has been raised. As a result it has been necessary to refer to the early history of the club in relation to this, and to explain why the current site was adopted. The period of time in question coincidentally happens also to cover the merger of Thistle and Caley.Bbut, for instance, you can't stop speaking about the 1940s just because that decade also included the Holocaust. I would therefore suggest that the most provocative statement in this thread to date is your own reference to "property of Caledonian FC."

There are two factors here. Firstly, the provision of a new stadium was part of the bid to the SFL for membership in the last months of 1993 and had to be adhered to. Indeed use of the word "had" is barely appropriate since this component of the bid merely realised what Caley had been trying to do for years. Secondly, I think the founding fathers of ICT did have their sights set rather higher than the Third Division, although precious few may have envisaged SPL football in a decade.

There was no room to expand, install compliant stands etc. All the land around the ground was already developed. A very good point. One long side of the ground was tight on to the Telford Street pavement, the Howden End was equally close to Balnacraig Road and the Distillery End was very close to Comet. As for the stand side, I can't remember whether Howden's nurseries were still there or whether the land at the back of the stand had also been developed. And let's be realistic about this. Caley had made numerous attempts to get out of Telford Street during the years preceding SFL entry so if it was getting past its HL sell by date, it was never going to be a long term option for the SFL. Even if Telford Street had been persevered with, then when the need came to extend to 6000 seats to get into the SPL in 2004-05 there would have been absolutely no chance. But I am also glad that I had the experience of watching SFL football at Telford Street for the 2+ years it took to realise the Caledonian Stadium. I still have particularly fond memories of Herchie's 19 minute hat trick v Arbroath in the opening league game, his cup winner v Livingston and the string of high scoring wins in the autumn of 1995, including 6-0 at half time v Albion Rovers before "losing" the second half 1-0, as Pele got his managerial era well and truly under way.

I can exclusively reveal that plans for a 20 turbine windfarm in Munlochy Bay have been approved by Highland Council

I suspect the same. The more I hear about the merger process and the ambitions and ideas tabled at the time, the more I'm convinced the whole project was hijacked by clueless idiots at each stage. Especially with regards the stadium design, cost and location. I wonder if we would have stayed and developed Telford Street had we known a Victoria Park sized site was all that we required? I don't think the 10,000 seat rule was in place until later but I'm sure somebody will correct me on that. CH2... I have to say that your statement is complete rubbish and you clearly speak from the position of a severe lack of knowledge about what happened at the time. We have already discussed stadium location and its limited options earlier in the thread. So given the circumstances behind the choice, obtaining funding was extremely difficult, especially given the planing requirements imposed by HRC (including a £1.3 million road) and that in turn imposed serious constraints on the design. I really don't think you have any clue as to the difficulties which faced the founding fathers of ICT and wonder on what basis of evidence you dismiss them as "clueless idiots"? Whether or not the 10,000 seat rule was in place in 1994 (it wasn't) is irrelevant, since developing Telford Street on a permanent basis simply wasn't an option. For instance remember (or maybe you don't) that it was even rejected as a venue for the March 1996 Scottish Cup quarter final against Rangers which went to Tannadice. Renegade, you are absolutely right about Kingsmills Park. The original plan was to play there until the new stadium was ready and to sell Telford Street for which there was a £750,000 offer on the table (it eventually went for £1 million). Kingsmills (the park, not the CTO contributor ) was duly surveyed by the SFL in the autumn of 1993 as part of their application process and it was on the basis of that temporary home that the club was elected in January 1994. However two other factors intervened. Firstly Kingsmills (where the away dressing room was a standing joke - or would have been if it hadn't been in such a state) was fundamentally unsuitable for the SFL. Secondly the assets wrangle meant that Telford Street wasn't going to be sellable in the foreseeable future, so they decided to use that instead.

You're correct there OCG. The Charleston bid in 1991 met with particularly bitter resident opposition. And (as CaleyT points out) there was also the Carse Farce (two rounds of it) where the District Council faffed around for months before deciding not to let it go ahead. It's my personal belief that if Caley had got the Carse in 92-93 then the merger would never have taken place and we would now be watching Championship - League One yoyo football. And I do indeed remember Norman's fear that Stratton Farm could kill the merger because, although the company had been formed, when it was Stratton v East Longman in the spring of 1994 agreement on transfer of assets was still many months away. As already stated, I'm not so sure about the Bught or anywhere in that general area de to traffic issues. As for the Northern Meeting Park... Northern Counties cricket club would NEVER allow anyone else on there

As is the one from Row S, this is very perceptive post which has sent me into the bottom of the wardrobe to find the copy of Bruce Hare's report which Fiona Larg gave me when I was writing the book, in which I didn't list all 11. But these are - Stratton Farm, East Seafield, West Seafield, East Longman, The Inshes, Drumossie, Cradlehall, Castle Heather, Torvean Quarry, Holm Mains and Beechwood. The short list was - Stratton Farm, West Seafield, East Longman and The Inshes. That then boiled down to Stratton and East Longman and the rest is history. Seven departed at the first hurdle for reasons ranging to sheer impracticability (Torvean - see Renegade's post) to cost of land and probable resident opposition (Inshes). I imagine that the Matalan site comes under Inshes and I also don't know what the local plan might have been saying for there, given the way things have developed since 1994. Regarding the Bught area, I think the problem of getting traffic in and out would have been insurmountable and will remain so until this new road goes in. Just about everything would have to go over the Ness Bridge and along Glenurquhart Road which are already a nightmare. Row S is absolutely correct in saying that Stratton Farm scored highest - but not initially! The matrix which Hare produced clearly shows East Longman as the leader and that was the case in his interim report. But come the final report (with, one suspects, some lobbying from INE who wanted to kick start the Golden Mile) Stratton had miraculously taken over as the leader. I know there is an ongoing viewpoint that a new stadium site should be considered, but I really can't see a viable alternative to the current arangement - even though Hare's report did stress that East Longman's attraction depended on moving the travelling people and the salt store, which has never been done.

Coincidentally I am writing this just two days after the 20th anniversary of the formal creation of "Inverness Thistle and Caledonian FC", the limited company on which the club is based, in Balnain House on February 24th 1994. The inaugural board eventually chose the current site about three months later. As it happens, what you have suggested was more or less what a consultant called Bruce Hare was commissioned to do at that time and he published his final report in March 1994. A lot more land has been taken up by subsequent development, but even 20 years ago it was pretty apparent that Inverness was not at all well endowed with suitable stadium sites. A long list of eleven sites was very quickly reduced to four since most of them were fatally flawed and this then came down to just two which would actually fit the bill. These were the current one (which was the strong preference of the club) and Stratton Farm beyond the Retail Park (which was the strong preference of Invernes and Nairn Enterprise). So the top and bottom lines are that respondents here might be hard pushed to come up with viable answers.