Charles Bannerman

Wot game was that, then?????

I believe that the factors governing attendances across football are many and complex and that ICT is suffering from a not uncommon Perfect Storm. I think the biggest driver of declining attendances is that, across the game, going to a football ground and paying to watch two teams which are considerably inferior to what you can watch on TV is no longer a flavour of the month activity. So, for instance Scottish Premiership crowds in the 3000 bracket are not at all uncommon. It also looks to me as if attendances here also permanently suffer from a definite novelty factor. In the first season at the Caledonian Stadium, heading towards a Division 3 title, there were several in the 2000 - 4000 bracket. That didn't include derbies which went above 5000 and in that specific case, the novelty factor soon became very evident and Highland Derbies in the Premiership latterly and consistently attracted far fewer fans than in D3. Similarly, the 2000 - 4000 also rapidly declined, and once playing even in D1 had become established (around 2002 perhaps), home crowds of 1800-1900 weren't out of the way. Fast forward to the novelty of the SPL and we are again back up to 4000+, and 6000+ for bigger occasions. But before long, even the OF were failing to prevent large gaps in the stands and run of the mill games were down to around 3000-odd. Inevitably, a drop down to the Championship is going to have another negative effect since second tier football in Inverness is now old hat, and of course the recent less than entertaining fare has added another factor, along with the failure to win. This is a far cry from the novelty of SPL names rolling into Inverness on a fortnightly basis and pushing for that first ever top six place. It becomes even more difficult to attract home crowds if you have to charge around £20 for all of this, but that is the kind of sum needed to maximise ticket income. The fundamental problem here is football's overall willingness to pay players way above their market value. Given that 2-5 Scottish clubs pull in a huge percentage of Scottish football support, the residual economics just don't leave much scope for full time football in this country. Clubs, especially in peripheral areas also continue to be badly affected by busloads of football fans heading off to Ibrox and Celtic Park. Then when you look at the 930 attending ICT v Peterhead on Saturday, you can add to all of that the reality that the Irn Bru Cup isn't something people really want to pay money to watch - unless there's something vaguely special like Falkirk v Dunfermline. At 4082, was the only one of the eight attendances above 2000. Despite the handicap of League Two opposition, 930 was actually the fourth biggest of the eight numbers, and then you need to take into account that "official" cup attendances always SEEM lower than how full the ground feels. OK... that's a pretty long winded way of saying that at ICT at the moment, a recently relegated team which is not playing well in a league which isn't an attractive product and which everybody has seen before isn't going to be able to pull in crowds which might make the prospects of full time football look terribly viable in the longer term.

I'm probably as bad as anyone at rising to Dougal's bait, but would still observe that, given the complete mince in most of his OPs, it's remarkable how long some of the threads he starts actually get. It's just that the temptation to knock down the patent nonsense you're inevitably confronted with becomes quite strong.

I could live with that. One's own ones never smell nearly as bad as other people's It's interesting also to notice how Jock's voluntary exile appears to have conferred upon him some kind of intellectual and moral superiority which has passed by those of us who haven't had the imagination to do the same. On the other hand, I don't seem to notice similar traits other exiles such as Scotty and Kingsmills.

Precisely! And I asked how you proposed that this could have been possible from within the dugout?

The very last thing I want to do is to make any judgments at all on a hugely unfortunate incident which could not have happened at a worse time for a club already under unfortunate pressure in several respects. However, WITHOUT PREJUDICE, one or two objective observations are required. Firstly, it's disturbing to see so many concrete "conclusions" being arrived at on the basis of incomplete evidence. What do we have? Still photographs which give an indication of what as happening at the moment they were taken and which COULD hence be misleading. Anecdotal and possibly prejudiced allegations of verbal exchanges, past and present, which at best are circumstantial. Indeed, and remaining on a non-judgmental theme, I wonder how many posters who are complaining about these alleged verbal exchanges are also equally scathing about "sweetie rustlers" in the crowd? (I merely state this to highlight a potential irony.) Then I have a question on a practical matter. How does Ancient Mariner propose Kellacher might have "got physical first" from within the dugout? Next up, another question. Can Jockdoonsouth give us assurances that he is approaching this issue entirely objectively and has no anti-Kellacher agenda in any way, shape of form. I would also remind Jock that Scott Kellacher was also on Celtic's books as a teenager but is still by no means the only coach not to have first pursued a long term, high level playing career. Jose Mourinho and Craig Brown come to mind to start with. It would be a mistake to look at what I have said and conclude that this is a "pro-Kellacher" statement. I have merely made objective observations and asked objective questions in an attempt to bring back to the middle ground a thread which quite clearly began with an anti Kellacher agenda and progressed (not the best word, I admit) to the stage where Original Poster clearly lost it. PS - the single operative word of what Fraz posted while I was writing reminds me that altercations like this, regrettably but still not justifiably, do tend to happen in football, including at globally energetic premises not far from here.

Aw for goodness sake Kingsmills Surely not?

I'm sure it would but unless travel outwith Scotland is heavily subsidised by the sponsors, I don't think it would suit the purse string holders!

Dean MacDonald, Robert Eagle, Martin Glancy?

Oh well, in the apparently ongoing absence and anonymity of Caley Jags Together and its 10% voting rights, as long as he hasn't instead gone with the Ultras.....

I see what you are saying Hawkeye, but is it not with the benefit of some hindsight?

This sounds remarkably like "The Clachnacuddin Vindication" of some years ago when Clach owed the Council megabucks of rent for Grant Street and the club explained itself away by simply stating that the Council hadn't asked it for the money..... which Clach didn't have if the Council had asked! On the original question, I'm not in any way doubting the validity of the assertion, but is there any evidence, other than hearsay, that renewals have not been sought? The alleged issue would certainly stand up a lot better if it were thus supported.

Over the years, I've at times tended to be critical of very occasional attenders, generally known in football as "glory hunters" (even Rangers fans complain about them??) but the practice is defensible. Look at it like patronising a certain butcher's shop only for its excellent steak pies. There's a global market out there. The people of Inverness don't have any moral obligation to owe Caley Thistle a living. Many will even have a minimal or zero interest in football. The club is part of that global market for the community's financial backing and is in competition for that alongside everything from Carlton Bingo to Tesco. All businesses need to create a market for their product in varying degrees of competition with others. Football and Caley Thistle are no more exempt from these fundamental economic forces than the shops closing down in the city centre.

Short of a Sugardaddy situation which would be as hypothetical as it was unsustainable, I'm afraid I can't DD. The writing was already on the wall during the several years when the club lived from hand to mouth and depended critically on being fortunate enough to receive windfalls which, along with selling the Social Club, funded ever increasing wages for players who latterly justified them less and less. The gap between the club's capacity to generate income and what it would need to survive in the Premiership is now so large that the only thing that could bridge it would be substantial, ongoing subsidy. I have for many years now thought that the inner Moray Firth is incapable of sustaining two Premiership sides without major subsidy for both. In practice, it probably isn't capable of even sustaining one without subsidy due to the non-transferability of income streams from one to the other for partisan reasons. Caley Thistle acquired its Sugardaddy in 2000 and this hugely assisted its progress to the SPL, also keeping the club there for many years. The one big error of that era was Brewster 2 which was neutralised by the one big stroke of luck which was going straight back up from an apparently impossible mid-season position in 2009-10. Thereafter, there was only so long that fortuitously timed cup runs, player sales, unexpectedly high league placings, sale of the Social Club and relatively minor benefactors of modest 6-figure sums were going to keep things going - especially after recruitment became so bad under Hughes. I'm realising that I'm in danger of repeating what I've already said, but there's clear blue water between income and required expenditure. Meanwhile, it's Ross County's turn for benefactors and they have, for the moment, been frequently passing GO and collecting £200. ICT, meanwhile, having already been dealt two Get Out Of Jail Free cards - Tullochs in 2001ff and the 2010 promotion - no longer have all the houses they used to (ironic statement intended!). They instead have been left stranded in the squalor of Old Kent Road. County have, for the foreseeable future, won the financial war of attrition. On the other hand if the banker there were to withdraw his support it would be a case of Go To (The) Jail (End)... do not pass GO, do not collect £200. I will conclude by saying that I fully agree with Kingsmills' comments about "following John's demands" and Administration. After all, the extent to which the demands in question were actually followed is a major cause of the current difficulty, so it would seem pretty obvious that going even further along that road would have had even more disastrous consequences. Spending money you don't have and are incapable of generating is the economics of suicide.

Blair, I'm still not 100% sure precisely what you are asking, possibly largely because of the changing nature of the Board in recent years. Football club boards are evolving things and in the case of the ICT board, there has of late not only been evolution but a straight jump from one species to another! I also think that the origins of the current problem go back several seasons, although it has only manifested itself on the field within the last couple of years. It's very difficult indeed to know what's happening behind closed boardroom doors, especially when, until very recently, the board was as secretive as it used to be. However I have a feeling that the root cause was the progressive acquiescence to managerial demands for first team squad funding... in a financial climate where unpredictable windfalls and selling the family silverware had to be relied on to meet these demands as far as possible and juggle the profit and loss account. A lot of the rest of the difficulties follow on from there. I am led to believe that Terry Butcher was pretty accomplished at maximising what he could get from the board for squad funding, but on the other hand, his recruits were also of high quality and this led to fan satisfaction and a lot of performance related cash coming back in from good results (and of course extra bonuses to be paid.) Then when Yogi came along, the demands continued - escalated perhaps, given that this appears to have been the final cause of Yogi's departure. However Yogi's recruits were, to be generous, not quite of the same calibre as before, and as time went by, the club was paying above the odds for less and less productive personnel. I believe that Yogi just got away with winning the Scottish Cup fielding quite a few of Butcher's players but as more and more of his own signings had to be called upon, he began to be found out. Perhaps this also led to more and more strident demands for cash in his last year. Then when Yogi does go, the Board realises that it has painted itself into a corner as a result of this somewhat Faustian arrangement. They are now left with an expensive but much declined squad, and Yogi's gardening leave to pay into the bargain. They are really struggling to balance the books so pressure is on to go for the cheap option which is Richie Foran and I need say no more of last season, for which the presumably fairly imminent accounts to 31.5.17. are also going to make interesting reading. So, with another £1m+ off the budget on relegation, wages really have to be slashed leaving very little for players. The narrative has now reached the beginning of this season, but I really think that it's too early to attribute blame for the last two months for two linked reasons. For the reasons stated above, neither John Robertson nor the current Board have really been in post for long enough to be judged on what they have managed to do on what are now massively reduced resources, The current board numbers only four. Two, including the new Chairman, who has been in that post for just six weeks, were new recruited a few months ago. One dates back to 2015 and the fourth is longer serving. Five board members have departed this year in this rapidly evolving/species jumping process, so it's very difficult to attribute blame. Blair, that's the best take I can give you on it. This is purely a personal appraisal and I hope that it helps to answer some of the queries you had.

I've possibly said this already, Robert but despite having been a Caley Thistle watcher on an almost daily basis since before the club was formed, I still don't feel I've got anything like a secure handle on what has gone wrong so very quickly since winning the Scottish Cup. All the same, a full understanding of this is key to finding a solution.

And your point is, caller?

Similar. 2082 at football, shinty crowd reported as "around 2000".

Brilliant idea in principle JM, but I could unfortunately foresee difficulties ranging from capital cost (especially after the ambitious shop project) to staffing (as you predict) and from location to ability to compete with Bannatynes, High Life, DW etc. But from a team point of view, I would have thought that a routine of: morning training - refuel with lunch - in-house strength and conditioning - snack to refuel - away home to lie down and rest.... would be ideal.

Honestly, Laurence, I was never really all that good at all..... you are over-estimating me. I certainly went further in coaching athletics than as an athlete myself. Cricket? Twenty20 is hugely entertaining. One day cricket is fairly exciting as well. As for test cricket, George Bernard Shaw's comment that the game was invented by the English whilst in search of a concept of eternity applies. The "test" is to keep awake.

The OFFICIAL version at this morning's unveiling was that he was approached on Monday but, like the Lord, football moves in mysterious ways!

Robbo could probably do without the slap up meal!

Laurence.... you have just signed up for the sporting equivalent of the Flat Earth Society! Then you have compounded the heresy by supporting your contention with the example of CRICKET! Once again, wynthank is pretty well on the case with the carbs and protein reference, although climbers are probably right at the far end of the endurance spectrum, given the very long duration and relatively low intensity (not these Olympic guys we've been seeing!) of what they do. For shorter endurance, in which I would include football, 10K running etc, I would still like to see stuff with smaller carbohydrate molecules - ie more sugary material.

I think you're right, Biggin. Brewster was extremely fitness conscious and set high standards for his players. If you don't have a day job alongside your sport, there is no reason why at least some of the days can't be used for double sessions, given the capacity for recovery that these requirements would still offer. Also, how many days a week, including game days, are full time footballers active? Six days a week is normal in many sports and some individuals even do seven, although the need for a recovery day can also be strongly argued for. As far as strength and conditioning in the gym is concerned, if this is not done a minimum of twice a week, the benefits are minimal.

Good point well made. It could also be said that if Inverness Sports Centre is good enough for people training for Commonwealth Games, World Championships etc, it's certainly good enough for guys playing second tier Scottish football. Football sometimes needs a reality check with respect to the real world of sport which it often fails to understand is out there.