Charles Bannerman

I suspect you mean "premature", and on that basis I strongly agree with you. Certainly Barclays have firmly denied that the weather problems at July's event at Castle Stuart had anything to do with their pulling out of the sponsorship and they cite the current financial climate. You could say "they would, wouldn't they" but it really doesn't surprise me to see a bank pleading poverty the way things are going. On the other hand maybe Barclays need the cash to pay executives' bonuses but whatever the details, I think the biggest concern has to be that Castle Stuart isn't seen as the fall guy in this scenario. They were so badly affected by what really were freak weather conditions and this should be fully realised. So should the fact that, apart from the weather, the championship gained a great number of positives from taking place there. Was there not also some kind of commitment to stick with Castle Stuart?

I'm not convinced that there's a completely rigid correlation between population density around a football ground and attendances although the sprasity of population in the Highlands does make it that bit more difficult. However I must pick up on the reference to the number of people that Celtic (and Rangers) attract to their stadium. I think there are three factors here. 1) Yes, the OF are based in by far the largest conurbation in Scotland where there may well be of the order of 10 times as many people within 50 miles of their grounds as there are with 50 miles of the Caledonian Stadium. This is bound to have a significant effect on their crowds. 2) Both Rangers and Celtic, whether they like it or not, have become focal points for the political and religious divide which has been imported across the Irish Sea. This further enhances support for these clubs. 3) Largely because of 1) and 2) above, both Rangers and Celtic have acquired a critical mass which draws in other fans from across Scotland. With them comes their money. Not only does this further strengthen the OF's financial clout, it leaves every other team in Scotland disproportionately under supported and under resourced. As a result you have two very large clubs (who are still abysmal is Europe and one of which at least still lives beyond its means) and a number of others who typically attract between (ballpark figures) 3,000 and 12,000 to home games with the lower end of that range being the more common.

This all goes back to Bruce Hare's 1993 report on possible stadium sites which initially looked at 11, seven of which were very quickly rejected leaving West Seafield, Inshes, Stratton Farm and East Longman. West Seafield (police reservations and infrastructure costs) and Inshes (where the land was too expensive) also departed the contest, leaving a head to head between Stratton Farm (which miraculously went from bottom of the four to top of the pile in a second appraisal by Hare!) and East Longman. This led to a head to head in the spring of 1994 between the club (who favoured EL) and INE (who strongly preferred SF which was on the Golden Mile which they wanted to kick start.) After many convolutions, EL became the designated site and the rest is history. It's all very well to talk about relocating the stadium - but where to? The original report itself shows that there are very few suitable places in Inverness. You will note that NONE of the short list of four is on the west side of the river and of the original eleven the only one west of the Ness was.... Torvean Quarry!! Quite simply west of the river offers very little choice in terms of stadium location and that's before you even consider the fundamental of getting traffic across the Ness Bridge in the absence of an extended distributor road. Remember that Caley (sic) spent much of the pre merger years looking at alternative sites on that side of the water and failed at venues as diverse as Kinmylies, the Bught, Canal Field and the Carse. I'd also just like to comment on the extensive discussion earlier in this thread about the funding of ICT and would suggest that two dominant factors are the way that football goes about its business and the nature of the game in Scotland. In the case of football as as a whole, so much of the available funds are going into the very biggest clubs that there is not a lot left for the rest to pay players etc and apart from that just about every club in the land lives beyond its means in order to try to compete. This leads to the expectation that rich individuals will in effect make large donations to clubs to allow them to operate in a fundamentally lossmaking manner which no sane business would contemplate. Also, specifically in Scotland this is much worse because we have two clubs which have been able to acquire black hole proportions because they are based in the largest conurbation in the country and also function as focal points for the religious and political divide which has largely been imported from across the Irish Sea. (By now Highland News readers may have identified this as an argument I expressed in my Sportsview column a couple of weeks ago.) Black holes of course suck in a great deal of surrounding matter and Rangers and Celtic are able to do this because of the critical mass they have been able to acquire (yes, I know I'm slightly mixing my Physics metaphors!). As a result, vast amounts of money pour into the Ibrox and Celtic Park coffers in the armadas of buses and cars which converge on these places on Saturdays from all across the land. Now for some reason, despite these massive advantages, the Old Firm are still ***** in Europe but that's their problem. However the effect on the rest of the country is that local clubs - such as ICT - are left disproportionately under supported and under resourced. The way I see it is that ICT has got three options or a combination of 1) and 2). 1) Increase income. 2) Reduce expenditure. 3) Accept a long term existence outwith the SPL. Hoping that one off windfalls will continue to come along indefinitely to keep the wolf from the door isn't a realistic strategy and there aren't really any assets left to sell off. The family silver cupboard is now more or less bare.

And I've just realised that I've among all these "highlights", I've forgotten to mention the Rebel Bus!!!

Don't you believe it OCG! From the moment that INE announced in May 1993 that they were going to try to broker a merger right through to April 1996 when the then new Highland Council finally agreed to honour the former District Council's commitment that £900,000 was "payable", it was almost a story a day with one twist following another. I still have a large reel of audio tape on which I have kept a lot of the key interviews and reports from that vibrant period in the history of football in Inverness. Some of the best stuff came from the Rebels such as being at the Clach Park when news filtered through by that new gadget the mobile phone that there had been a pitch invasion at Rothes. Next day I was in Finlays for the Rebels' inaugural meeting when Young Brooman lamented the recent passing of Diggar MacGillivray and rightly wondered what Diggar would have had to say. Then there were manic discussions with Beaumont and the time he sought me out personally to do an interview after he had unilaterally declared himself Chairman of Caley in a fashion jointly reminiscent of Lenin arriving at the Finland Station in 1917 and Christ cleansing the Temple. I also found myself in both the Muirtown and the Rannoch Lodge on that historic night of September 9, 1993 when there were two "yes" votes and then off to interview Fiona Larg about the outcome. Then 4 months later the "league election" party at INE HQ - actually on the very same spot on Bridge Street that the Highland League had been founded almost exactly 100 years previously. Humorous moments too such as the Rebels mooning at Jock McDonald after the illegal Urquhart had scored the winner in the last Inverness Derby and the time they painted the Caley Park unrinals black and red. Fireworks being thrown in Rose Street Hall and Fiona Larg banned from a Kingsmills meeting because she was a woman. It was three solid years of one bizarre story after another with innumerable instances of arriving home in the early hours of the morning and thinking.... "nope... this ISN'T going to happen." But it did.... Against All Odds.

Johndo... when you are "home alone" next weekend, maybe we should meet up for a wee while in one of these places where "old people" drink which you were seeking in the Olde Sneck section and have a right good blether about "the way it was". Or even if you are in the Caley Club post match I will most definitely catch you there from about 630. I'll tell you something - 1993-96 when all of this was going on were probably the most interesting years of my life!

In actually think that the entire question has long since become academic anyway given that the merger project - once realised - brought the previously inconceivable benefit of SPL football to Inverness in a decade. That, however, doesn't make the story any less worth telling almost two decades on. There were those who were for the merger, there were those who were against it. The pro merger view prevailed and Inverness has what it has as a result. OK someone may well come back with the "but Caley could have gone it alone" line and I really don't want to get into a debate in this area so far along the line. So I'll just say that there will be a lot of people out there who are very glad that the last 17 years has had a lot more to offer Inverness than going down to Telford Street (or some other similarly modest venue had Caley's quest for one been any more successful than Inverness City's) to watch games against Alloa, Brechin and Arbroath. Remember Caley did have a great support but also had an element of unpopularity in the town. So going it alone, without INE's support, without a very large slice of the £1.8 million of public money eventually realised and without Thistle's half million pounds of assets would have been no picnic - had Caley been elected to the league in the first place. However I've already said more than I intended on a subject which I now think history reduced to little more than an academic curiosity many years ago. "Against All Odds" was actually Dougie McGilvray's choice of title, made a few weeks before the book went to print. Whilst writing it, I used the working title of "Blue, Black and Red" which did appear a burning issue at the time, but with the benefit of the wider perspective over the years, I think Against All Odds is a much better title. Finally, and I think I can safely associate the CTO publishers with this viewpoint, I am highly delighted at the very positive response to this initiative and thank people for their kind comments.

Yes, I think that is the answer to the original question. There's a large cabinet in the front foyer of the Social Club and the original Boardroom is also fairly well endowed with them. Some in the sports bar would indeed be a good idea. What still intrigues me is the fate of the two large plaster footballs which stood above the entrance to the Caley Park until 1996 and spent some of their latter days flanking the notice "Welcome to Telford Street Park - Property of Caledonian FC". They seemed to disappear without trace. As it happens, more of the fabric of Thistle Park still seems to exist with certainty since, as far as I know, the enclosure and floodlights are still at Harmsworth Park Wick. The Jags pie shed also lived on as a garage near the Bught until a couple of years ago when housing was built on the site.

I would just like to take this opportunity also to extend my thanks to all involved in this project. And that must start with Born Caley! After all if he hadn't instigated the initial discussion by enquiring about a copy, this would never have happened. I was literally posting on the thread he had started when I had the "Eureka moment" idea that if CTO were prepared to host it and if I wrote the extra chapter which I'd always regretted never having included, then all we would need would be for the book to be scanned and we were in business. That was on July 16th which was less than 8 weeks ago so things have moved on fast. I would therefore specifically also want to thank - * Scotty and Caley D, CTO's co-publishers, for their huge cooperation and very prompt and efficient efforts in firstly agreeing to host the book and then getting it on here so quickly once the material became available. * Alex Main without whose "Caley All The Way" centenary book it would have been much harder to write the additional chapter. * What I understand to be various collaborators in Thistle's centenary booklet "The Hub of the Hill" which was just as useful. * Pull My Finger who keeps trying to talk down his input but believe you me, the scanning was absoultely vital. * The other copyright holders - photographers Trevor Martin, Gordon Gillespie and Ken MacPherson and the club through Kenny Cameron - for agreeing to the republication. So there we have it - the tale of how ICT was formed plus a bit more on the earler pre history, all free of charge and available indefinitely on Caleythistleonline! So a week Friday night - September 9th, the 18th anniversary of the "Two Vital Votes" which turned what had been an INE pipe dream into potential reality - I will raise my glass just a little bit higher than usual to the club that made it into existence - Against All Odds.

I agree this would have been a far more accurate headline but lets face it journalists are good at twisting headlines From what I hear you weren't too bad at it yourself specifically at the time of the merger dougal Are you SURE you're not Buenos in disguise? As it happens the newspaper as opposed to broadcast coverage I did of the merger was relatively limited and in any case, not being a sub editor whose job it is to write headlines, I've never written one for real in my life!

Don... these are extremely revealing figures. I don't suppose you have stats for ICT for the six of the 10 years covered that they were in the SPL? So the picture is becoming much clearer, although slightly different stats based on slightly different periods give slightly different numbers indicating the same thing. This IS very largely a Celtic problem, with Aberdeen and Rangers also struggling, while the rest of the clubs seem to have held up quite well in a challenging environment. Let's take Aberdeen out of the equation and also acknowledge that this is a long enough period to see old football fans die out and new ones come on tap - during which the OF have taken a pasting and the others have held up reaonably well against that challenging underlying trend. That being the case, is there the remotest chance that a small part of this trend may indicate a modest drift on the part of the Scottish population away from the OF and towards the other clubs?? And what of the Dons? Is that bubble which is the Gothenburg Myth slowly deflating as Aberdeen fans begin at last to come to terms that 1983 and all that was a one off as opposed to a permanent condition? A better headline? "SPL CLUBS HOLD FIRM AS CELTS LEAD DONS AND GERS IN MASS FANS EXODUS" DON.... DO YOU HAVE AN INTERNET ADDRESS FOR THE 10 YEAR STATS YOU QUOTED?

Before I launch into a minor update, two brief related comments. Firstly, for a thread which turned out to be a red herring on here since the report didn't refer to ICT, it's become quite interesting. Secondly, I note that a number of media have been reporting this in terms of "600,000 fans" so this may well be the way it's stated in the original report. But anyway... I have since established that the 600,000 drop IS as I thought it was, and it represents a fall from 3.7M to 3.1M total season attendances at SPL matches over five seasons. That's a drop for the entire SPL of 16%, but as an average it is - as I said before - rather meaningless. Now if we take Celtic's attendance at the start of the period as an average of about 55,000 per game, then that gives them about 1.05M for the season. That's about 27% of the total for the SPL. It has also been stated that Celtic's attendances have gone down by 21%. Combining these figures tells us that Celtic's contribution to the drop is about 5 of that 16%. So the rest of the SPL, INCLUDING THE MAJOR UNKNOWN VARIABLE OF RANGERS has dropped on average 11%. The Dons' 19% fall will pull that slightly lower again for the other SPL clubs but the indications are that Celtic look like a significant although not overwhelming factor in this decline. In other words - Celtic down 21%, Aberdeen down 19%. The rest of the clubs outwith these two down something between 10 and 11% on average. Final question - why do these football economic studies always surface so long after the period to which they refer? This "latest" one is about the season before last!

I think this forum is moving into a new golden era when I find myself serially and seriously agreeing with Don! The terminology used Attendance figures show that almost 600,000 fans have stopped attending SPL games in the past five years. is ambiguous and clearly can't mean, as Don states, that 600,000 fewer individuals are now attending games. But what is really meant is also a bit unclear. The best I can make of it is that it is meant to mean that the total number of attendances at SPL matches in 2009-10 was 600,000 less than it was in 2004-05. There are 228 (6 x 38) SPL games in a season, so that's an average of around 2630 fewer fans per match, or around 15800 fewer fans per six game card. However when you are talking about the SPL, average is a totally irrelevant concept since you have two clubs which are so much bigger than the rest. In a newspaper - well not quite, it was the Daily Mail - I saw it stated that Celtic's attendances are 21% down. That's something of the order of 11,000 per home game which is almost two thirds of the 15800 for the whole card when Celtic are at home. Aberdeen's are down 19%. What will that be? Maybe a couple of thousand plus off their gates. I don't know the situation for Rangers but I suspect that a large chunk of the fall referred to is attributed to the drop at Celtic Park. I also suspect that some of the lesser lights may have dropped as well but maybe only by a few out of the 3000-4000 the likes of St J, ICT, Kille etc typically get. I couldn't guess what these percentages would be. The most meaningless statistic I have seen in relation to all of this is that the average SPL attendance is 13,926. Given that this comprises two clubs at around 50,000 and the rest nowhere near these levels, this is a totally useless piece of information. In summary - how much of this problem is a Celtic problem?

So, after all these years of trackside advertising in this cup for "Coca Cola" and "CIS", what's it going to be this year? "THIS TIE COMES COURTESY OF 'D' WING AT BARLINNIE"?

I was at the stadium at lunch time and it emerges that the signing of Hogg and Jones (maybe they'll open a city centre pub together :biggrin: ) completes the ICT squad for the moment. I have to say that following the addition of these two and Thomas Piermayr this week, there was a very positive vibe down there today - a feeling that this week's additions have really added a sense of completeness to the squad. Obviously it will take some time for this very new squad to weld together but the appearance is that this has started already and will be ongoing. Longer standing (aged 23+ or so) fans will recollect the time it sometimes took Pele's teams to get going at the start of a season (remember the first season in D2 97-98! ) I really don't expect a return to that kind of scenario and I think this week's developments could be quite significant.

Wayne Addicoat - from another planet.

Johndo.... only one kind of person would ever allow you live on air. And you look after their needs every day among the psychiatrically challenged of Lancashire!

Alex, thank you very much although I've actually rarely been on radio on a Saturday of late since my usual job at ICT home games has tended to be the TV report and updates on the 4:30 Results Programme. I'm definitely not going to get into a debate about BBC coverage since it's not my place to do so. All my initial post was for was to list the various BBC coverage options for ICT fans, highlighting those which are specifically ICT orientated. What I could do is to suggest that when you are outwith the Highlands and within the UK you should go to BBC online because all ICT and indeed all SPL games have dedicated live commentary there.

Alex, I think you know quite well the very large number of Caley Thistle games which have dedicated - "Old Firm free" if you like - live commentary to the entire Highlands and Islands if not further afield, and that this is just one of a very wide range of services - radio, TV and online - which the BBC offers to cover Caley Thistle. Of course if you are in Perth, the range of opportunities which you have to receive live-on-air ICT commentaries will be more limited, restricted indeed to any occasion the BBC also runs ICT commentaries nationally on 810 or 92-95 - unless the MFR signal stretches as far as Perth. Please remember also that the BBC manages to do for ICT and Aberdeen fans in their local area what it can't, for instance, do for St Johnstone fans in Perth, and that is to offer regular programming specifically aimed at their needs "Old Firm free" if you like.

Och well, since MFR have been promoting their coverage in another thread, I might as well balance this up and, equally shamelessly, also give a brief summary of what the BBC has to offer. :biggrin: BBC Scotland sports programming on Saturdays runs from 12 noon until 7pm and will normally include:- * Live commentary from Caley Thistle games home and away, plus progress reports on other Scottish games on 92-95FM across the Highlands and Islands and sometimes also on AM or FM across Scotland. * Live commentary also online. Availability outside the UK is, as always, subject to contractual conditions. * Open All Mics covering all SPL matches and some from the lower leagues on 103.5-105FM. * TV updates and full time report on BBC 1 Scotland from 4:30pm. * Your Call and Sports Report end on to Sportsound. Outwith the Saturday football envelope:- * Sportscene SPL highlights. * Online SPL highlights. * Commentary on non-Saturday games online and, where frequency arrangements allow, live on air as well.

A popular misconception Oddquine. This battle was no more an Irish one than the war of the roses was a Scottish one. The opposing forces were King William III of Orange (protestant), who a few years previously had deposed King James II of England and VII of Scotland (catholic) from the throne of England, and the aforementioned James. James had fled to Ireland and was followed by the forces of William. They met and fought across the river Boyne. Irishmen fought on both sides of this battle, just as Scots had done in the English civil wars, but it was still very much a battle for the English throne. Apart from that I agree with most of what you say. I would, however, say to all our fans.....people will be among the crowds at games, especially those involving OF, and will act against those who use sectarian terminology. I'd not quite agree with that, Alex. Basically, after the Glorious Bloodless Revolution of 1688 which saw James II's departure and the arrival of King Billy and Marydoll, the "Bloody" bit to try to get him back started anywhere the insurgents thought they could succeed and gain support. This included Scotland, where the battles of Killiecrankie and Dunkeld played a prominent part before the fighting moved to Ireland where the two major engagements were the battles of the Boyne (11th July 1690 but commemorated on the 12th) and of Aughrim (12th July 1691). Claims have been made on behalf of both as the decisive battles of the Irish part of the campaign but the Boyne is the one which seems to have attracted more celebrity. And even though Dunkeld in 1689 was also a victory for forces supporting King Billy, it is totally forgotten. But this was NOT a dispute about the throne of England, it was about the throne of the whole of Great Britain following the Union of the Crowns of 1603. The five attempts which took place in the 1689 - 1746 period to restore the Stuarts are very difficult to categorise in terms of who was fighting whom. There is a common but serious misconception that this was Scotland versus England. It most definitely was not. It is closer to call it Protestant versus Catholic but even this doesn't quite fit the bill. It was basically the supporters of the Stuarts (the Jacobites) against the supporters of the regime which ousted them - initially William and James's own daughter Mary, then her sister Anne and then the German imports which we have had ever since because Anne was incapable of bearing survivable issue. I would have to say myself that it would have been a lot easier not to have had a king at all! But to take this thread back on topic... as long as they behave themselves in the South Stand and keep their 300 year old nonsense to themselves when the OF visit, Inverness should hopefully be OK.

A lot of relevant points there Oddquine. Interestingly enough, Orange Order rules state that an Orangeman - should strenuously oppose the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid countenancing (by his presence or otherwise) any act or ceremony of Popish worship; which as far as I am concerned confirms that the very purpose - indeed, if you look at ther history, the sole purpose - of their existence is to oppose Catholicism. Up here we don't have the Orange Order and have nothing more than the odd abortive Orange Walk and the annual Apprentice Boys pilgrimage to the Portland Club (via, inexplicably, the War Memorial where they have the affrontery to try to gain credibility by recognising our war dead.) But we do on the other hand have the Free Presbyterian Church (the Tartan Taliban) which is just about as bigoted as the Orangemen. This was the highly distasteful and outrageously self righteous organisation which in 1989 banned the Lord Chancellor Lord MacKay of Clashfern for attending the Roman Catholic funeral of his colleague Lord Wheatley. It's also an interesting observation you make about the Battle of Culloden which brought to an end the 60 year conflict which began when James II was thrown out in 1688 and of which the campaign which included the Battle of the Boyne and the Siege of Londonderry marked the start. And yes, it's completely absurd that the Act of Settlement of 1701, banning Catholics from the throne (whilst welcoming foreigners!), should still apply. Mind you, if i had my way, I would simply extend the Act of Settlement to ban EVERYBODY from the throne! But 300 and odd years on, they still make a triumphalist fuss about the Boyne etc but the attitude to Culloden is totally different. So what's the dinstinction? In a word - Ireland. What's kept the Orange nonsense going has been Irish politics and the vexed question of the early 1920s of what to do about the island as a whole. The problem is that the settlement - which was the subject of the 1921 Cabinet meeting in Inverness Town Hall -resulted in a Catholic south and predominantly Protestant north. The southern part fought among themselves in the Irish Civil War and, apart from a few ultra IRA extremists, the pro Treaty view has since become accepted. Now they're more than happy to make their way in the world by providing players for Inverness Caley Thistle. But in the north, the Protestants still seem to feel the need to go around like dogs urinating on lamp posts to mark their territory. Unfortunately this rubbish has also been imported into Scotland and, worse still, has become incorporated into support for the country's two largest football teams - which, I would argue, have become larger as a result of being (albeit invountarily) the focal points for this political and religious divide. In consequence all the other teams in the land find themselves correspondingly impoverished. So Inverness Town Hall in 1921 maybe has a lot to answer for. If the decision on that day had instead been to let the entire island of Ireland go its own way and sort out its own problems, a lot of this nonsense might have been avoided.