Charles Bannerman

Yes, I'm quite aware that this is the answer in theory but with the nearest ones sometimes 40 metres away from where the water is falling, that's quite a distance for water to travel over an uneven plastic surface and quite a concentration of it if and when it gets there. Half an inch of rain on a football pitch looks to me like upwards of 20,000 gallons of water. A lot for drains at the side of the pitch to cope with.

So did Jenna Jameson....I wonder if they know each other!!! Now that's a classic!! I have to say, though, that I always feel very uncomfortable seeing any team which is funded way out of proportion with its realistic substance as a club. The ultimate absurdity was Gretna where a village club had millions pumped into it by an unstable narcissist and attention seeker in desperately bad health where it was obvious that the whole thing was an utter house of cards from the start. How on earth anyone could see any merit in the desperately contrived scenario there has always amazed me. However I digress into a completely extreme case. But there are a few other clubs around which clearly live beyond the boundaries of their own basic significance - usually by paying players money which is well above the going rate for where they are. For instance if Strathyjags' numbers are accurate for Formartine then that is absurd for a part time Aberdeenshire village club in the Highland League. I think what begins to happen there is that the players are fully aware that they are being paid far more than the value of thee job they are doing and when that happens, the effect seems not to be for them to put in a bit extra to justify this but to switch off altogether. Indeed there may be a few players cadging off Cadger!

Alex... that one has always intrigued me!

Yes, I remember the the 94/95 season very well indeed - when the average attendance was 1259 (which is a lot more than you would see on average at Kingsmills and Telford Street combined.). On ONE occasion in 94/95 there was an error where many were missed out and it was mistakenly reported at just over 400 which was a long way short of any of the other matches. As I was saying - selective use of statistics. And thanks to Born Caley for setting the record straight. The newspaper report I saw quoted the concert as having taken place "48 years ago" which made it 1963 - rather late indeed for the Beatles only to have attracted 19. But now we learn that this was a much more likely sounding 1960. I gather a local group called the Melotones attracted 1200 at the Strath the same night. I also head yesterday that, unlike the Beatles, The Melotones are still on the go!!!

No, EXACTLY that number voted NO when the merger question was put for a second time on 1st December 1993 and that was the biggest vote against any apsect of the merger that there ever was at any Caley meeting. Let's also remember the circumstances surrounding the number rising to as high as 226 after 50 had voted against on 9th September. Both sides of the debate within Caley recruited furiously for about two months in order to pack as many people as they could into that Rose Street meeting in a desperate bid by both sides for their will to prevail. So really, that 226 is absolutely dead strength among those who felt that way. Anyone within geographical supporting range and remotely inclined not to attend ICT matches was in there. We also know that a great number of these people, and most of them sooner rather than later, have been coming to games. I also wish posters would stop quoting attendance figures on this thread which are totally irrelevant to the subject. Yes, there may well have been "2000 plus" at Scottish Cup ties but, given a core home support of about 500, I find it difficult to believe that too many of this 2000 plus, who always emerged out of the woodwork for the glorious moments, were rabid, diehard Caley fans who felt so passionately about their club that they resolved never to darken the door of the new one. Out of a core home support of about 500, the majority of whom have for a long time come to games, you just can't get a number of refuseniks of any significant magnitude. If you want to add in a figure for Jags refuseniks, then, like everything else, you have to take a proportionally much smaller number. Then there's the suggestion that there are "at least 20" refuseniks at one work place. That reminds me of the story I saw in a paper today about a search to trace any of the 19 (nineteen) people who apparently attended a Beatles concert in Dingwall before the Fab Four became famous(no off topic jokes please!) You could more or less guarantee that 50 of these 19 will, like Celtic fans who were allegedly in Seville, make themselves known! But the absolute bottom line of this whole tale is - the number of refuseniks, however small, actually doesn't matter. Without their presence, ICT rose through the ranks to the top table of Scottish football within a decade and there it remains. Any other arrangement which suited the wishes of these refuseniks would have had no chance of having done so. So in the words of the Lord High Executioner in The Mikado - "they will none of them be missed!"

To revive an old saying on these forums (or I should really say "fora"!) "I agree with Mantis!" You've got it straight from the horse's mouth there.... from one of the many "NO" voters who followed and supported ICT after the deal was done and the club formed. And he is telling you that a large number of the 226 who voted against the merger in December 1993 have become supporters. But of course there's always the anecdotal stuff when someone claims to know someone who is a refusenik.... therefore Inverness is full of refuseniks. In about 2086 (and I choose the date deliberately) we will, with echoes of the Battle of the Somme, be hearing that the last living Caley Refusenik is still in a nursing home on Telford Street, bumping his gums away on a Howden End pie from the stock he took away and froze in October 1996. I really have to commend Dougal who does an incredible job on here getting debate going.... even though it's usually about outdated or irrelevant p!sh. He seems to have a talent for identifying issues which get people posting on here... just look at the length of this thread for instance! He even shows quite a good understanding of some of these issues, including this one, and his last post does state some sense... but also a lot of nonsense although I'm now sufficiently punchdrunk with this subject no longer to be bothered replying line by line. However I would want to give this summary of the contribution of Thistle.... The Inverness merger was essentially an unequal one and finding the right balance of inequality is what created a lot of the problems. At one point it was (correctly) stated that Caley had 70% of the assets, 80% of the membership (albeit only after rabid recruiting in advance of the meetings) and 90% of the fundraising capacity. Thistle on the other hand did contribute £486,000 from the sale of Kingsmills and the proceeds of the sale of their Social Club. Believe me - half a million quid in the desperately tight financial arithmetic of the construction of the stadium was absolutely vital. However the presence of BOTH clubs in the arrangement, even after the departure of Clach, gave it the status of representing the whole of Inverness and not just one of the town's three Highland League clubs. This was a very important "added value" which meant that the joint bid had FAR more clout than any single one could have had and as a result FAR more support was forthcoming from the public purse (£1.8M) and local businesses. It also brought neutrals in because - like it or not - there was always a significant dislike of "the Caley" within Inverness. In consequence, the merged bid which went in front of the SFL in January 1994 was far, far more potent than anything a single team could have raised. The option of any single club bid effectively died on September 9th 1993 when both clubs voted to merge. Although applications did not close until 1st October, no single bid could physically have been put together after that. So it was the merger or nothing. The bottom line is that few people in 1993 would have envisaged Inverness having SPL football by 2004, far less retaining it more or less unbroken for many years. Nor would it have ever had SPL football if Caley had decided to go it alone - which they so nearly did and I believe would have done if the Carse Scheme had gone ahead in 1992. So, ironcially, although the ditherers on the District Council nearly caused disaster at one point, their dithering over the Carse was a major factor in ensuring that Inverness is in the SPL and not just another Alloa, Brechin or Peterhead. EDIT - while I was posting this, Alex was talking a lot of sense in the post now immediately above. In particular, if creating dissent is Dougal's aim, then there is NO chance of him doing that with any of the topics he starts. This one, for instance, is as Alex says merely of nostalgic and in my own case academic interest.

So where does the water which would otherwise cover about 8000 square metres of grass go instead?

You basically mean Tommy. And yes, I understand the USH pipes are pretty close to the surface which means it can never be spiked or forked properly.

There are about half a dozen recent points that might be worth perlying to but quite honestly I can't be bothered because we've been round this block so often. So, briefly... Yes, Kingsmills Park, once Jags realised they owned it and Martin Ross's interdict on its disposal was lifted, was eventually sold for ?486,000, the proceeds going to ICT. Alex also makes reference to ICT's biggest benefactor.... who used to be a regular at Kingsmills! Also someone made reference to the current level of support including a lot of new fans. True, but that level of support has only materialised since joining the SPL. The 3000s that appeared from time to time in 96-97 were entirely down to the combination of a first ever trophy and the novelty factor. Never forget that for many years in D1, ICT's home gate (including visiting fans) was typically about 1900... and I actually doubt if Caley would ever have got to D1. That is also before you consider the public funds and commercial sponsorship which Caley alone would not have got. I also had to have a laugh at Dougal's suggestion that I make myself out to be a dyed in the wool Caley (sic) man but fail the test because I was late buying a season ticket in 1993. (Just checking that Mantis hasn't already used all of these up!) Actually that is the only season ticket I have ever bought for anywhere since I have a press pass and I only bought it to get into the merger meetings. Best 20 quid I ever spent!!

I understand that there will be no TV coverage on Wednesday night and that the rescheduled date was changed from Tuesday to Wednesday to allow the pitch 24 more hours to dry out since there were no longer any TV constraints.

Thanks Laura. I have just had a call from Jimmy Falconer to say that the rearrangement has been rearranged to WEDNESDAY. I was en route to the only sporting event apparently on today - the Half Marathon - so diverted towards the nearest computer but you've got the job done!

Don't say that, there are certain people who will now start trying to get that vote overturned! As far as I am aware, Caledonian FC never changed its constitution on the basis of the merger and is still, for instance, constitutionally bound to have a registered office in Telford Street!!! :biggrin: (Unless in the very dying days when all 576 Season Tickets had expired and only the Life Members were left, they quietly sorted things.) OCG.... get a hold of my book. All is explained there!

On the first point, it was even worse than that. Fiona Larg the INE CEO had been doing all the negotiating with the clubs and in December 1993 it got really critical with Jags on the verge of pulling out. There were crisis meetings with both clubs but, with the whole scheme on the verge of disintegration, Fiona wasn't allowed into the meeting at Kingsmill since she was a woman and her Chairman Norman Cordiner had to go instead! On the second point, in 1991 Caley looked at Charleston but a public meeting made such a fuss that they were driven away by Resident Power. Canal Field was briefly looked at but the one that was followed up most thoroughly was the Carse. After long debate in 1992 on what became known as The Carse Farce, the District Council bombed it out. The following year it was raised again and hit the buffers a second time. I actually believe that if Caley had got the Carse, they would never have voted for the merger(remember it was only 55-50) and gone it alone. Inverness was that close to having a mediocre SFL team bumping away indefinitely in the region of the Second Division - something like Alloa I suspect.

As it says on the tin. 7:45 WEDNESDAY 16th March.

I take it you mean "support" and that's a wee typo but the answer is still "Yes" - you unfortunately were a lot smaller. That was actually one of the problems which meant that Thistle was a severely weakened entity when the merger came around - lack of money, including gate receipts. Another case in point was the September 9th 1993 votes. Caley went for the merger 55-50. At the Jags meeting it was 33-12 so less than half the attendance. On the other hand Jags were at a fundamental disadvantage since only MEN were allowed to go to their meetings! Let me give you this anecdote. I wasn't in the original Caley meeting since I only joined afterwards (OK, it was in order to get into meetings for reporting purposes!). But I did doorstep their original one in the Muirtrown. As the season ticketholders came down the stairs afterwards, somebody called out "Jags have gone for it by three to one!" The response from one wag was instant. "Christ! There weren't as many as four at the Jags meeting were there?" :biggrin:

Game off. Waterlogged pitch.

It was quite interesting to deabte this one the first four or five... or even six!... times it popped up on this forum. But it's now got quite tedious and I'm not even going to dignify the question with a vote on the poll. But let's look at it this way. After the Howden End and a lot further afield was trawled again and again and again for Caley "anti" sentiment for the 1st December 1993 Rose Street vote, 226 people voted against the merger. This is the biggest anti merger vote that there ever was. We also know that a great number of that 226 subsequently became regular attenders. But let's be conservative and say that half the "NO" voters didn't attend matches. That's 113 and if you make a very generous addition of 87 from the much smaller Thistle support, that get's you to what I suspect is a vastly over generous 200 refuseniks compared with the 1500 or so fans which was the average gate in the early days. 17 years on, a significant proportion of that generous 200 are either dead or have left the area. There MAY be 100 left which out of a core home support of about 3000 is a VERY small price to pay for the formation of a club which represents the whole of Inverness. Had Caley gone alone, I don't think the support would have been anything like as large and the financial backing from the Council and the community and business certainly wouldn't have been.

This would be Radio nan Gaidheal would it? :biggrin:

It strikes me that a large slice of the human species has given up living in any meaningful sense of the word in favour of passing its existence tapping out self indulgent pontifications on such trivia as it still manages to indulge in and obsessively analysing what I believe is called its "status".

If you really mean what the title says - "Best ever Inverness Caledonian (sic) Player" - I would suggest the following short list: Billy Urquhart, Charlie Christie, Joopy Mitchell, Davie Johnston, Kevin MacDonald. Feel free to add.

Is there a barber's around here where I can get my beard trimmed? Karl Marx. But apart from that, I simply see the 10 team league as being to the benefit only of the Old Firm and maybe one or two other clubs for whom relegation is permanently highly unlikely and to the detriment of the leading clubs outwith that tiny and exclusive group (as well, of course, as that of the fans.) Clubs which are now unable to remain permanently inside the top 10 as opposed to the top 12 previously will be consigned to oblivion -financial and otherwise - and there is no way the SPL can come up with any bribe payment big enough to make that danger financially attractive. Here in Inverness, the devastating consequences of dropping to 1st Division football from the SPL have already been felt and there, but for the grace of God, a rousing finish to last season and Dundee bottling it, still would go Caley Thistle.

Doh! Homer Simpson.

I'm not doing it this year Danny although I will be there to support my daughter who uses the Fun Run as a 5K time trial in advance of the main 10K season - and likes to see how many blokes she can beat! So with a 1pm Fun Run start (1pm for the Half), I'll be clearing out by 2pm by which time not even a runner of your talents will have finished the half marathon and I think traffic could be a problem. I'm planning to stash the car somewhere near the Sports Centre and then to hop through Kinmylies/ Telford Street/ Friars Bridge to the stadium. I hope that there will be enough time for any half marathoners to get over. If you're on for a 1:20 - 1:30 Half, then that would give you just about an hour to get over but the problem could be road closures if you go through the town and getting parked if you are a relatively late arrival at the stadium. An extended post-half marathon warm down from the Queens Park to the Caledonian Stadium could be the answer! (Which reminds me of the time Pele made Vetle Andersen run back from Charleston after excess use of the mouth. :biggrin: ) I don't suppose having two simultaneous big events on in Inverness would cause the police any angst?

Yes it's a nuisance when you post a thread title and then can't rectify any mistake you've made! However a bit of lateral thinking in the direction of the name plate outside Fawlty Towers cracked it for me. I gather it was a very good game which I believe took place during the night our time. As a result, what I briefly saw, or more specifically heard, whilst surfing channels late evening must have been part of the pre match build up - which really had me puzzled to start with. What I thought I was witnessing was this woman trying to impersonate a churchful of Wee Frees singing psalms - or at least that's what the series of agonised, irregular wails she was emitting reminded me of. But then when I listened rather more closely, I realised that what she was actually doing was committing a murderous assault on the American National Anthem. Nobody does vulgarity quite like the Americans.

I believe 54 is the magic number. Happy Birthday young man!