My question is.....

Are we as fans willing to put a bit of money where our mouth is? Would we be willing to put our hands in our pocket (more than we do already) in order to maintain the sporting integrity of the league?

One of the things that has been playing around in my head with the whole Rangers NewCo thing is that one way or the other it is going to cost ICT (as it will every other club).

A lot of fans (myself included) think that any Club that goes through insolvency should be sent packing.

I'm a fairly idealistic person when it comes to such things, but not so idealistic that I don't appreciate that when the club involved is someone like Rangers then the financial hit of getting rid is, arguably, greater than the financial hit of keeping them....certainly in the short term.

Please try and answer as honestly as possible. I know giving more cash isn't an option for everyone and have included a choice to try and cover that scenario. Please don't say you will give more than you could because that's how much you would like to give on strength of feelings about the situation.

Think it also best to assume nothing in return....although if such a thing became reality I'm sure there would be room to negotiate for something in return (shares or whatever).

Please feel free to discuss below, but try and keep it as specific as possible to the topic.

There's another thread running elsewhere for discussion on other aspects of the situation -

Integrity is about honesty and trust. The SPL is run by dishonest people who cant be trusted. Are we willing to support that and continue to be the laughing stock of the world or do we support an entertainment media that does display integrity?

Gabby, your assumptions on losses are based on lies from the leaders of the SPL and the idea that TV would walk away from a league without Rangers. No TV company has come forward and said they would walk away. The only persons who indicated such are those who were in the pockets of Rangers and Celtic. If Scottish football cant be successful without Rangers then Scottish football doesn't deserve to survive.

Only each of us can answer this. Expectations as to what can be achieved need to be aligned to the income of the club.

The point that Caley D seems to making is that the impact of 'integrity' may be for the club to take a financial hit. Is this acceptable to the fans if this leads to increases in costs or reduction in player budgets? Perhaps.

The alternative to a reduction in budgets is for the club to incur debt and the calls will come for investment to be made to offset this, however this investment should be by 'others'

Thank you, I was beginning to think I might be speaking in a foreign language.

You are correct, I have had my answer...but the poll is to see what answer others give

I really am surprised at how many people have responded to your survey CaleyD as I think the result is obvious.

If and when Newco Rangers are disallowed access to the SPL it would be down to every club in the league to adjust their spending accordingly. If they could raise money by asking the fans to do something as suggested by CaleyD then fair play to them but if not they'd have to tighten their belts, Ross County gaining promotion this season will go a long way to offset any loss we would feel by getting rid of the cheats, our budgets are set with relegation in mind and there is bound to be back up plans should we find ourselves in the 1st Division. In case you have short memories there are no old firm teams in the first division to boost income. In my opinion if there was an untapped revenue stream available to the club should Rangers be gone then the club should be attempting to tap into it whilst Rangers are in the SPL, not doing so is folly.

ICT, as would every other club, will have a need to adjust spending regardless of whether a Rangers NewCo was submitted to the SPL or not.

The problem we have is that if Rangers were booted at this point in time then TV could rip up the current deal. I'm sure they would want to deal with us, but it would be at a reduced price. If a Rangers NewCo were re-submitted to the SPL then the current deal would continue, but we face the cost of losing even more fans.

This was an idea raised by me and not the club, so they are not attempting to do anything (with folly or not). I just hoped that there might be enough support for such an idea to justify spending more time on developing it and taking it to the club and saying "We (fans) aren't all mouth, you are caught between a rock and a hard place and we are willing to back up our demands with tangible financial assistance."

I'm one step ahead of you on the idea of doing something regardless...but that's a conversation for another time.

Fans have historically rallied best when faced with pending disaster. I guess I'm just putting out feelers to see if we are prepared for such a thing, and if there's enough goodwill left in the game for us to be able to rally the support needed if/when that day comes.

You are correct, I have had my answer...but the poll is to see what answer others give

I really am surprised at how many people have responded to your survey CaleyD as I think the result is obvious.

I obviously have a greater faith in our fans than you then.

We might only have about 35% who would support such a scheme, but if you assume a core support and apply the poll results as a guide to the wider fanbase then we have 1000 fans who would be interested in making a contribution. Even if we only averaged £10/month from each then that's £120k a year. Not earth shattering sum of money, but I believe if/when faced with the very real possibility of financial armageddon then it would increase....and of course there's also a high chance of corporate backing as well.

Time will tell whether my faith is misplaced or not.

You are correct, I have had my answer...but the poll is to see what answer others give

I really am surprised at how many people have responded to your survey CaleyD as I think the result is obvious.

I obviously have a greater faith in our fans than you then.

We might only have about 35% who would support such a scheme, but if you assume a core support and apply the poll results as a guide to the wider fanbase then we have 1000 fans who would be interested in making a contribution. Even if we only averaged £10/month from each then that's £120k a year. Not earth shattering sum of money, but I believe if/when faced with the very real possibility of financial armageddon then it would increase....and of course there's also a high chance of corporate backing as well.

Time will tell whether my faith is misplaced or not.

Nothing at all wrong with putting out feelers, if my club stepped up to the plate and did the correct thing I would consider myself a hypocrite not to financially support them when I have asked them to show faith in us. Whatever I felt I could reasonably afford.

I bow down as CaleyD is evidently projecting his negativity, anger and frustration on this seasons' performances on to a more acceptable focus.

According to Sigmund Freud, projection is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one "projects" one's own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings onto someone or something else. 'Emotions or excitations which the ego tries to ward off are "split out" and then felt as being outside the ego...perceived in another person or subject,

I bow down as CaleyD is evidently projecting his negativity, anger and frustration on this seasons' performances on to a more acceptable focus.

According to Sigmund Freud, projection is a psychological defense mechanism whereby one "projects" one's own undesirable thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings onto someone or something else. 'Emotions or excitations which the ego tries to ward off are "split out" and then felt as being outside the ego...perceived in another person or subject,

Very good, most of Freud's ideas, whilst respected and revered at the time of writing, have been dismissed by modern psychologists. Have they not?

Nope - Siggy is the father of psychoanalysis which has "fathered" many of the offshoots. He was born in a different era but his "Interpretation of Dreams" publication is still revered by most and his theories were modified by the like of Jung and Adler - who viewed them to be too sexually orientated and cocaine influenced (which Siggy never actually took but did advocate as being medicinal). His theories of transference, the unconscious mind, the libido, dreams, psychosexual development and particulary the id, ego and super ego are all revered and copied.

He would basically have sectioned Craig Whyte and cured Caley D - although Oddquine would have been a challenge.

Nope - Siggy is the father of psychoanalysis which has "fathered" many of the offshoots. He was born in a different era but his "Interpretation of Dreams" publication is still revered by most and his theories were modified by the like of Jung and Adler - who viewed them to be too sexually orientated and cocaine influenced (which Siggy never actually took but did advocate as being medicinal). His theories of transference, the unconscious mind, the libido, dreams, psychosexual development and particulary the id, ego and super ego are all revered and copied.

He would basically have sectioned Craig Whyte and cured Caley D - although Oddquine would have been a challenge.

Have to agree on CW, definite psychopath without a doubt.

Yip - suppose some peeple are incurable - but lovable :love02:

It's a shame that your emotions would never be reciprocated, have you noticed lately that people view your posts as nothing more than the ramblings of a needy, attention seeking old man?

:lol:

At least that is less offensive than being called a pr!ck !!

Envy shoots at others and wounds itself - and as ma old mucker Winston churchill once said to me during a pyschosocial intervention - "“Johndo - You have enemies ? Good. That menas that you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.

:lol:

At least that is less offensive than being called a pr!ck !!

Envy shoots at others and wounds itself - and as ma old mucker Winston churchill once said to me during a pyschosocial intervention - "“Johndo - You have enemies ? Good. That menas that you have stood up for something, sometime in your life.

;) if it helps to view me as an enemy feel free. Have you ever thought about how folks who have to quote others really have nothing of their own to say?

I hate you, then I love you. Its like I want to throw you off a cliff and then rush to the bottom to catch you.

Or perhaps folks who have to quote others are widely read and more intellectual ?

As ma old mucker Oscar Wilde once remarked to me - "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." And then Plato butted in with - "Life must be lived as play." i simply retorted - Do not take life so seriously as you will never get out of it alive - and in unison Oscar and Plato replied - "feck aff, that is nothing more than the ramblings of a needy, attention seeking old man?

I hate you, then I love you. Its like I want to throw you off a cliff and then rush to the bottom to catch you.

Or perhaps folks who have to quote others are widely read and more intellectual ?

As ma old mucker Oscar Wilde once remarked to me - "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." And then Plato butted in with - "Life must be lived as play." i simply retorted - Do not take life so seriously as you will never get out of it alive - and in unison Oscar and Plato replied - "feck aff, that is nothing more than the ramblings of a needy, attention seeking old man?

Kudos for the Jim Morrison quote, although not name dropping him leads me to believe you wanted to claim that one as your own, 6/10

I blame Terry Butcher for all this disharmony and anger.

I blame Terry Butcher for all this disharmony and anger.

Get yersel' back on Pie and Bovril mun, yer sorely missed.

My original "goal" has been acheived in relation to this boring, non footballing thread - The mind ought sometimes to be reverted that it may return to better thinking yet melancholy, indeed, should be diverted by every means but drinking and yet, almost every man wastes part of his life in attempts to display qualities which he does not possess, and to gain applauses which he cannot keep; so that scarcely can two persons meet, but one is offended or diverted by the ostentation of the other.

My original "goal" has been acheived in relation to this boring, non footballing thread - The mind ought sometimes to be reverted that it may return to better thinking yet melancholy, indeed, should be diverted by every means but drinking and yet, almost every man wastes part of his life in attempts to display qualities which he does not possess, and to gain applauses which he cannot keep; so that scarcely can two persons meet, but one is offended or diverted by the ostentation of the other.

I understand where you are coming from. But I really don't officiate games, like these.

Edited May 4, 201213 yr by marks

So stick to spectating then Goodnite :love02:

Integrity is about honesty and trust. The SPL is run by dishonest people who cant be trusted. Are we willing to support that and continue to be the laughing stock of the world or do we support an entertainment media that does display integrity?

Gabby, your assumptions on losses are based on lies from the leaders of the SPL and the idea that TV would walk away from a league without Rangers. No TV company has come forward and said they would walk away. The only persons who indicated such are those who were in the pockets of Rangers and Celtic. If Scottish football cant be successful without Rangers then Scottish football doesn't deserve to survive.

The TV contract specifies at least 3 old firm games. there is no contract without these games. TV companies haven't said anything yet because they are waiting for the dust to clear. My understanding is the current TV deal expires this season and the new contract has not been signed. By stipulating the minimum amount of old firm games they are indicating that the significant value of the contract is in old firm games. it is a no-brainer for TV - no old firm games, no contract.

ESPN have (finally) spoken...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/05/rangers-in-crisis-backlash-fear-forces-11-club-vote-on-ibrox-club-s-spl-future-86908-23848533/

It is clear they are saying this because they are confident newco will be in the SPL, if this doesn't occur - expect some olympic class back peddling.

With a bit of spare time on my hands I thought I'd do the geek thing and run the new TV deal numbers to see what it adds up to. The deal is reportedly worth £80m over 5 seasons to the league and I've tried to break it down into what that means in 'additional' fans per season and home game based on £20 gate price. These are pretty rough figures and don't take into account of other incomes from sponsorship etc. or costs like the parachute payments, league running costs, taxes and such like so you can take as much or as little from these figures as you like. It was more just to get an idea of it's rough worth should the TV deal be cancelled.

Standard Payment per club (1/12th of 48%)= £640,000

Placing - TV Money - TV Total Worth - Fans Per Season at £20 a ticket (per home game (18))

1st 13.0% - £1,081,600 - £1,721,600 - 86080 (4782)

2nd 11.0% - £915,200 - £1,555,200 - 77760 (4320)

3rd 5.5% - £457,600 - £1,097,600 - 54880 (3049)

4th 4.5% - £374,400 - £1,014,400 - 50720 (2818)

5th 4.0% - £332,800 - £972,800 - 48640 (2702)

6th 3.5% - £291,200 - £931,200 - 46560 (2587)

7th 3.0% - £249,600 - £889,600 - 44480 (2471)

8th 2.5% - £208,000 - £848,000 - 42400 (2356)

9th 2.0% - £166,400 - £806,400 - 40320 (2240)

10th 1.5% - £124,800 - £764,800 - 38240 (2124)

11th 1.0% - £83,200 - £723,200 - 36160 (2009)

12th 0.5% - £41,600 - £681,600 - 34080 (1893)

On average this means 50,027 extra fans through the turnstiles in an 18 home game season or 2779 per home match. Even if we work with hitting 9th every season it's still over 40,000 extra fans or 2240 a home game. I don't know how realistic this would be to achieve but if you consider the potentially positive impact on attendances a switch to summer football and a much more competitive league could bring and add a TV deal of even 50% of the worth of the one that is about to begin then, to me, it doesn't seem like the demise of Rangers or the Old Firm is as catastrophic an event as is being predicted by some. It could actually be the opportunity for Scottish Football to really invigorate and reinvent itself but, being cynical, who really expects the Self Preservation League to do that...?

Edited May 8, 201213 yr by Bridge_Ender